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Old 4th March 2020, 10:41 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'm disagreeing with your premise. I don't think most people are happy with how things are, I don't think most people would be happier with a compromise.
Then again you don't understand and I'll try to clarify: I'm not talking about people being happy i.e. satisfied fully with the situation; I'm talking about them being ok with the compromise i.e. not angry.

What you proposed would, in my view, just mean that one side never compromises and gets what they want, only for their work to be undone by the subsequent government, etc. In other words, where you're heading to right now in the US.
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Old 4th March 2020, 10:41 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Most people favor either male or female sexual partners. Do you think that 90% of the population would be comfortable with an intersexed partner because it's a compromise partly incorporating what they actually want?
Is the alternative being forced to have sex with males?

I should think your scenario a better outcome for a larger number.
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Old 4th March 2020, 10:43 AM   #83
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There's also the fact that we're treating opinions on a single line when it's two, as in both how much you agree with one side of the debate and how much of a big deal it is to you.

I think Triscuits are better then Wheat Thins 100%. But if a candidate ran on a pro-Triscuit platform I'd still think he was an idiot for making such a big deal about it.

So will I "compromise" on Triscuits vs Wheat Thins? Errr... yes, no. Maybe. Yes with a but, maybe with an expect. If there's a bowl of Triscuits and a bowl of Wheat Thins on the table at a party I'm choosing Triscuits 100% of the time so in the sense no, but I would never walk out of a party because the host has the utter audacity to serve Wheat Thins instead of Triscuits so in that sense, yes I absolutely would.

We all knows those people (if not you're probably one of them) who don't have that second line on their graphs and every hill they firmly prefer must, simply must, be a hill that must be died defending.

ETA: Too Long; Didn't Read version; Strength of conviction and level of passion (or similar concepts) are two seperate dump stats, not one, for most people.
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Old 4th March 2020, 10:46 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Then again you don't understand and I'll try to clarify: I'm not talking about people being happy i.e. satisfied fully with the situation; I'm talking about them being ok with the compromise i.e. not angry.

What you proposed would, in my view, just mean that one side never compromises and gets what they want, only for their work to be undone by the subsequent government, etc. In other words, where you're heading to right now in the US.
I was using "happy" and "okay with" interchangeably: I disagree with the premise that 90% (or even a majority) will be "okay with" compromise.
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Old 4th March 2020, 10:48 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay seriously raise your hand if "Some things people will compromise on because the represent a spectrum" and "Some they will not because they represent an absolute" is too complicated to understand.
I feel like people who think that's too complicated will find your call for a show of hands too complicated.

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People will compromise on somethings but not others. Does anyone disagree with that?
Not only do I agree, I will go even further: People will even compromise on absolutes, when they're negotiating a slate of absolutes.

In fact, a lot of negotiation seems to involve presenting a slate of absolutes, without indicating which ones you can live without. Then the goal is to make it seem like you're making a major concession, when you're really giving up an absolute you don't care about, in exchange for keeping an absolute you absolutely must have. Meanwhile your counterparty is playing the same game. If everything goes well, each party walks away with slightly more of their "real" slate than they were certain of getting. But unless things go extremely badly for one party, everybody at least walks away with something. Compromise!

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Old 4th March 2020, 10:48 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There's also the fact that we're treating opinions on a single line when it's two, as in both how much you agree with one side of the debate and how much of a big deal it is to you.

I think Triscuits are better then Wheat Thins 100%. But if a candidate ran on a pro-Triscuit platform I'd still think he was an idiot for making such a big deal about it.

So will I "compromise" on Triscuits vs Wheat Thins? Errr... yes, no. Maybe. Yes with a but, maybe with an expect.

We all knows those people (if not you're probably one of them) who don't have that second line on their graphs and every hill they firmly prefer must, simply must, be a hill that must be died defending.

ETA: Too Long; Didn't Read version; Strength of conviction and level of passion (or similar concepts) are two seperate dump stats, not one, for most people.
Nobody prefers Triscuits to Wheat Thins. They're both dreadful but at least Wheat Thins aren't corrugated burlap.
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Old 4th March 2020, 10:49 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
More generally as in, the Democratic party is also "a party that routinely supports efforts of voter suppression"?

Nope. More generally as in the national presidential election, not the primary.

The Democrats are not engaging in voter suppression anywhere close to the level that the GOP is engaging in it.

You really should know that.
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Old 4th March 2020, 10:51 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Nobody prefers Triscuits to Wheat Thins. They're both dreadful but at least Wheat Thins aren't corrugated burlap.
Sharp Cheddar on Cracked Pepper and Olive Oil Triscuits is goddamn divine and I will shank a motherhumper if they suggest otherwise.
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Old 4th March 2020, 10:56 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Sharp Cheddar on Cracked Pepper and Olive Oil Triscuits is goddamn divine and I will shank a motherhumper if they suggest otherwise.
Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot peasants don't have access to proper cheeses. Enjoy your foodstuffs, after a long day on the donkey cart or farm yard or whatever.
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Old 4th March 2020, 10:58 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Nope. More generally as in the national presidential election, not the primary.

The Democrats are not engaging in voter suppression anywhere close to the level that the GOP is engaging in it.

You really should know that.
So why does the DNC prefer a brokered convention to RCV?
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Old 4th March 2020, 10:59 AM   #91
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Also I think most all of us have encountered the "Demand a compromise, then move further away from center, demand you compromise again, wash, rinse, repeat" game enough to at least recognize it's vague outline.

There's a difference between a one time compromise and a perpetually shifting one.
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:01 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Also I think most all of us have encountered the "Demand a compromise, then move further away from center, demand you compromise again, wash, rinse, repeat" game enough to at least recognize it's vague outline.

There's a difference between a one time compromise and a perpetually shifting one.
My conclusion is that compromise is neither inherently good nor inherently bad, the valuation of it depends on what you're compromising about. And what cheese and crackers you eat while compromising. Triscuits, seriously? Madness.
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:04 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I was using "happy" and "okay with" interchangeably
Then what word would you use to describe those who are happy with the policy, not just okay with? You understand my confusion?

Quote:
I disagree with the premise that 90% (or even a majority) will be "okay with" compromise.
On most things, they will. On some things they won't. If you become inflexible on all things, then everybody loses.
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:07 AM   #94
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I think we're just making this more complicated then it needs to be and talking around each other.

On most every decision we make there is a "acceptable" cut-off in there somewhere. With some decisions the "acceptable" cut-off is pretty low so you have to places you can give slack. With some decisions there is less. With some there is none.

And some questions just are either/or and "compromise" as a concept just can't be used.

There's a difference between house hunting and compromising on a house that has 80% of the square footage you want and compromising on a house that has 80% of the "not currently on fire" you want.
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:14 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Then what word would you use to describe those who are happy with the policy, not just okay with? You understand my confusion?
I don't believe there are any such people so I don't see a need to call them anything.

Quote:
On most things, they will. On some things they won't. If you become inflexible on all things, then everybody loses.
I disagree.
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:17 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I don't believe there are any such people so I don't see a need to call them anything.
You don't think people are ever actually happy with something the government does???

Quote:
I disagree.
I can see that, but I don't know why you do. You seem to think most people are angry with the system most of the time, but I don't know where you get that, and until I do, I have no idea how to bridge this disagreement.
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:23 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You don't think people are ever actually happy with something the government does???
Correct???

Quote:
I can see that, but I don't know why you do. You seem to think most people are angry with the system most of the time, but I don't know where you get that, and until I do, I have no idea how to bridge this disagreement.
I don't recall saying "angry". Anger isn't the opposite of being happy (or "okay with").

And why do you think this disagreement needs to be "bridged"? Do you have a deep psychological fixation that all things must be compromised? If you can't accept that disagreement is a viable possibility that can't be changed then no wonder you have such a strange lust for compromise!
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:25 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Correct???
That's odd. I'm happy with a good number of laws and policies, ok with others, dissatisfied with others still, and angry with a small number of then. Anyway, the label isn't important, since you've clarified what you meant by "happy".

Quote:
I don't recall saying "angry".
You didn't. It was my characterisation. I admit that it might not be very accurate.

Quote:
And why do you think this disagreement needs to be "bridged"? Do you have a deep psychological fixation that all things must be compromised? If you can't accept that disagreement is a viable possibility that can't be changed then no wonder you have such a strange lust for compromise!
That's a much stronger reaction to my words than I expected. Who said anything about compromise at all costs? Certainly not me. My post was meant to be reconciliatory, and you somehow took offense to it. That's odd. I mean, isn't the purpose of debate to find common ground? Why do you think I even post here?
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:27 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You don't think people are ever actually happy with something the government does???



I can see that, but I don't know why you do. You seem to think most people are angry with the system most of the time, but I don't know where you get that, and until I do, I have no idea how to bridge this disagreement.
Some people all like Ren in the "Ren and Stimpy" cartoons;they are not happy unless they are angry about something.
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:37 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's odd. I'm happy with a good number of laws and policies, ok with others, dissatisfied with others still, and angry with a small number of then. Anyway, the label isn't important, since you've clarified what you meant by "happy".



You didn't. It was my characterisation. I admit that it might not be very accurate.



That's a much stronger reaction to my words than I expected. Who said anything about compromise at all costs? Certainly not me. My post was meant to be reconciliatory, and you somehow took offense to it. That's odd. I mean, isn't the purpose of debate to find common ground? Why do you think I even post here?
I didn't take offense, and am not offended. You are misreading tone if you thought I was.

And I don't think the purpose of debate is to find common ground, and I don't think this has been a debate.

I think everyone posts here for the same reason: entertainment.
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:44 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I didn't take offense, and am not offended. You are misreading tone if you thought I was.
Possibly, or maybe my choice of word there was incorrect. It happens to me.

Quote:
and I don't think this has been a debate.
It's a discussion of two opposing viewpoints. How else would you call it?

Quote:
I think everyone posts here for the same reason: entertainment.
YYyes, in that it isn't work, but like many forms of entertainment it has a specific goal. For me, it's to try to find out who is more correct. Otherwise there's no point.
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:44 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Some people all like Ren in the "Ren and Stimpy" cartoons;they are not happy unless they are angry about something.
There's a line Red Storm Rising, a rather good Tom Clancy novel about a full scale, peak of the Cold War era war between USA/Nato and USSR.

In the end the US wins the war after several months of brutal fighting. But the USSR will still not accept full, unconditional surrender.

Why? Because as they put it "We might not be able to win, but we can still make it so everyone loses."

That's the Right in America right now, to at least some degree.
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:47 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
YYyes, in that it isn't work, but like many forms of entertainment it has a specific goal. For me, it's to try to find out who is more correct.
Oh, that's easy: I am. You may take that as read on all matters. They don't call me Sagacious Jim for nothing! In fact, they don't call me Sagacious Jim at all! Q.E.D.
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:48 AM   #104
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Prediction. Biden is the Dem nom. He stumbles. Romney enters the race. Does 20 % of vote but Dems, Biden still win election. Biden is a lackluster president, and there's always speculation about his brains being suerkraut, but he's not a disaster.
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:51 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
...That's odd. I mean, isn't the purpose of debate to find common ground? ...
Between Triscuits™ and Wheat Thins™! Only if that common ground is scorched earth!!
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:54 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Between Triscuits™ and Wheat Thins™! Only if that common ground is scorched earth!!
Why even eat crackers at all? They're mere vehicles for the food you actually want to eat. Just have little slices of meats and cheeses directly. Most people could afford to skip the carbs anyway.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:02 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There's a line Red Storm Rising, a rather good Tom Clancy novel about a full scale, peak of the Cold War era war between USA/Nato and USSR.

In the end the US wins the war after several months of brutal fighting. But the USSR will still not accept full, unconditional surrender.

Why? Because as they put it "We might not be able to win, but we can still make it so everyone loses."

That's the Right in America right now, to at least some degree.
That's almost as bad as comparing Bernie Sanders' campaign to a Nazi invasion.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:07 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So why does the DNC prefer a brokered convention to RCV?

I expect it's to assist in preventing certain people from becoming the nominee, such as Bernie Sanders.

Why do you think they do it?
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:15 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Oh, that's easy: I am. You may take that as read on all matters.
Well, that certainly simplifies matters.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:17 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I expect it's to assist in preventing certain people from becoming the nominee, such as Bernie Sanders.

Why do you think they do it?
I'm not even sure I understand the important factors well enough to speculate. Best I can do is assume that they're not actually stupid, so they must see some advantage to the current system, that they're not prepared to give up for RCV.
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Old 4th March 2020, 01:05 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
Romney enters the race.
Under whose banner? I'm not seeing any third party who would take him.
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Old 4th March 2020, 01:35 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Nobody prefers Triscuits to Wheat Thins. They're both dreadful but at least Wheat Thins aren't corrugated burlap.
Triscuits are far, far better with dried beef/cream cheese spread. It's not even close.
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Old 4th March 2020, 01:36 PM   #113
dudalb
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why even eat crackers at all? They're mere vehicles for the food you actually want to eat. Just have little slices of meats and cheeses directly. Most people could afford to skip the carbs anyway.
I have a prejudice against classic Saltine type crackers since I ate so many of them in the US Army. They were the bread component in MREs.
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Old 4th March 2020, 01:37 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Under whose banner? I'm not seeing any third party who would take him.
He could run as an Independent a la Ross Perot.
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Old 4th March 2020, 02:00 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I feel like people who think that's too complicated will find your call for a show of hands too complicated.
I'm sure as hell not going to let you tell me where to put my hands!!!!

/s
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Old 4th March 2020, 04:56 PM   #116
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
He could run as an Independent a la Ross Perot.
It might help, but I don't think it would be the guaranteed spoiler that it would have been a few elections ago.
Voters would know what it was about- and few of them would be fooled.
Then again, few of them would need to be fooled.
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Old 4th March 2020, 10:06 PM   #117
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There will be no contested convention (from Bernie) if Biden gets the plurality:

Quote:
"If Biden walks into the convention, or at the end of the process, [and] has more votes than me, he's the winner," said Sanders, before confirming he would concede whether the lead was a majority or a plurality.

At the end of the 2016 primaries, Democratic convention rules allowed superdelegates to vote on the first ballot, which is no longer the case in 2020. Instead, a candidate who has a majority of at least 1,991 delegates would automatically win on the first ballot. However, if a candidate only had a plurality of votes, a second ballot could potentially be decided by superdelegates.

"I think it would be a real, real disaster for the Democratic party," said Sanders. "People would say 'the person who won the most votes didn't get selected.' Not a good idea."
Linky.
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Old 4th March 2020, 10:33 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
There will be no contested convention (from Bernie) if Biden gets the plurality:



Linky.
Good for Bernie, but lets face it, he's not giving anything away here. He's never winning in that scenario. Smart move right now to look like the more fair person because Biden actually is giving up a ton if he said the same thing.
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Old 4th March 2020, 10:41 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Triscuits are far, far better with dried beef/cream cheese spread. It's not even close.


If I saw someone eating a dry Triscuit standing next to someone slathering a Wheat Thin with any common cracker topping...

I'm not sure who I'd want to punch first.
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Old 4th March 2020, 10:49 PM   #120
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I find it plausible that Romney will run as an independent after the LDS convention.
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