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Tags 2020 elections , joe biden , presidential candidates

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Old 7th March 2020, 09:30 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
1992? 1996? 2008? 2012?
Bill Clinton was a centrist, but Obama was not.
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Old 7th March 2020, 09:36 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Lots of focus on "gaffes" and handwaving them away as perhaps even part of his folksy charm.

But there's tales made up out of whole cloth (arrested in S.A. trying to see Mandela) and innumerable statements where he shows his contempt for progressive values.

Dementia would almost seem to be the less concerning reason to explain those, do you still want to back away from that explanation for such cases?
Sanders has started to go on the attack over those things. Over the last couple of days he's been pointing out that Biden voted against allowing gay people to openly serve in the military and for cutting social security, while Sanders voted the opposite.

Speaking as an outsider, I think Sanders is the better candidate in terms of policy, history, and integrity. I think Biden looks more likely to win the primaries, but would be worse for the country if elected president.

I'm not sure which would be more likely to beat Trump in an election. It's a fact that young people haven't been voting in the primaries, which could be indicative that they wouldn't vote in the election, which would be bad for Sanders. But, then, perhaps that's more a case of not truly understanding the importance of the primaries and they would turn out for the election after all. I'd need to see some historical data to form an opinion.

I tend to think that if Sanders can get the youth motivated, then he potentially could beat Trump. I think that Biden is more vulnerable to Trump's attacks, and I don't see people getting enthusiastic about him. He doesn't seem to inspire passion in people. I think Biden could be another Hillary Clinton.
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Old 7th March 2020, 10:13 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Bill Clinton was a centrist, but Obama was not.
Which progressive policies did Obama push forward, thereby distinguishing him from the mainstream liberalism of Clinton and/or Biden?
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Old 7th March 2020, 11:28 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Which progressive policies did Obama push forward, thereby distinguishing him from the mainstream liberalism of Clinton and/or Biden?

"Change you can believe in". Remember that? The full (secret) slogan was "Change you can believe in if you're gullible". I think he won a price for that.

But of course Zig is right. Obama didn't run as a centrist. He ran as the hopey changey guy. He wasn't a centrist candidate, he just turned out to be a centrist president.
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Old 7th March 2020, 11:40 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
But of course Zig is right. Obama didn't run as a centrist.
Which progressive policies did he run on which distinguish him from the current Biden campaign?
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Old 7th March 2020, 11:45 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Which progressive policies did he run on which distinguish him from the current Biden campaign?

Look it up yourself.
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Old 7th March 2020, 12:13 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Bill Clinton was a centrist, but Obama was not.
Nonsense.
The Right tried very hard to stick the "radical", "palling around with terrorists" labels on him, but no one with half a brain or more bought that ****.
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Old 7th March 2020, 01:01 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
So Biden just needs to smile and shake hands while people in the background make all the decisions. Sounds perfect.
That is quite the leap to take from my post. Do you think it's a bad thing for a POTUS to listen to his advisers?
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Old 7th March 2020, 01:05 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs
Yeah, Melania learned that the hard way.
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I expect this is supposed to be a "what aboutism" but it doesn't really work as their careers and standing are so different. She married a guy nobody ever thought would hold an elected position. Biden's a career politician who's held office and run for office for what, fifty years now? He should definitely be held to a much higher standard. I'm not sure her English is ever good enough to write a speech. As much as I detest our mad king and have contempt for our foreign queen I think her cribbing a speech is small potatoes in the grander scheme. Plagiarism speaks to character and we already know her character: golddigger. She's not running for office, so what does she matter?

Biden, however, is running for office and he's got a track record of foolishly obvious dishonesty demonstrated in repeated incidents of plagiarism. That's much more damning.
No, not at all. It was in response to your comment about how hard it is to get away with plagiarism in this day and age of Google. I was agreeing with you.
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Old 7th March 2020, 01:07 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're absolutely right. It was a stupid thing to say, and I withdraw it.
Admitting error is a sign of maturity, character and a healthy ego.
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Old 7th March 2020, 01:43 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Look it up yourself.
Hitchens razorWP applies in this case.

Someone who doubts your claim that "Obama didn't run as a centrist" doesn't need to show that he did.
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Old 7th March 2020, 02:28 PM   #132
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True.
Obama was probably more right-wing than Clinton.
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Old 7th March 2020, 02:34 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Hitchens razorWP applies in this case.

Someone who doubts your claim that "Obama didn't run as a centrist" doesn't need to show that he did.

I don't care behind which junk you're trying to hide your dishonesty.

Won't work.
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Old 7th March 2020, 02:36 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
1992? 1996? 2008? 2012?
Yes, campaign slogans like "A vote for me is a vote for change!" and then "Hope & change!" plus even "My Presidency will be remembered as the time when everything in the whole world started getting better because of all my change!" can work, even when they come from someone who won't end up following through on them.

This is evidence that Biden could win the general election if he were to campaign on the same pretense at progressiveness that those guys did. But he isn't. His pretense at being like Bernie is limited to making up stories for his past, not campaigning as if he were progressive now.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Sanders has started to go on the attack over those things. Over the last couple of days he's been pointing out that Biden voted against allowing gay people to openly serve in the military and for cutting social security, while Sanders voted the opposite.
He should have been more attacky all along. He'd be in a better position now if he had. (Although, as always for him, his actual current position is better than it's generally presented; it's about a tie being treated as an utterly hopeless loss already, whereas if he were more willing to say bad stuff about his opponents instead of just talking about good stuff he wants to do, he'd be solidly ahead and the general story being told about it would be that it's approximately a tie.)

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Speaking as an outsider, I think Sanders is the better candidate in terms of policy, history, and integrity. I think Biden looks more likely to win the primaries, but would be worse for the country if elected president.
Even people voting for Biden agree. They've never produced a single solitary argument for him on the issues, just the electability myth that's precisely the opposite of reality, while all of the polls on issues consistently show much more support for Bernie-like positions among all Democrats (and often all Americans), not just Bernie's. Biden just doesn't have actual support even among his own supporters.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I'm not sure which would be more likely to beat Trump in an election. It's a fact that young people haven't been voting in the primaries, which could be indicative that they wouldn't vote in the election, which would be bad for Sanders. But, then, perhaps that's more a case of not truly understanding the importance of the primaries and they would turn out for the election after all. I'd need to see some historical data to form an opinion.
The idea that Bernie would depend on some wildly unprecedented wave of millions upon millions of roughly-20-year-old voters is a myth cooked up by his opponents as a straw man. Democrats have won Presidential elections before (and lost by quite close margins, not huge blowouts) without anything completely off-the-wall happening. And they've done it with voters who wanted policies like Bernie's and candidates who campaigned like they were going to push for such policies.
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Old 7th March 2020, 02:41 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I don't care behind which junk you're trying to hide your dishonesty.
Evasion noted.

Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Yes, campaign slogans like "A vote for me is a vote for change!" and then "Hope & change!" plus even "My Presidency will be remembered as the time when everything in the whole world started getting better because of all my change!" can work...
Are those all actual quotes?
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Old 7th March 2020, 04:40 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That is quite the leap to take from my post. Do you think it's a bad thing for a POTUS to listen to his advisers?
Not at all. It is essential. But they should be giving advice to someone with vision and wit. America shouldn’t chose a president who is showing disturbing signs of mental decline.
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Old 7th March 2020, 04:48 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Not at all. It is essential. But they should be giving advice to someone with vision and wit. America shouldn’t chose a president who is showing disturbing signs of mental decline.
Oh yes, we have Donald *****' Trump. And then there is a non-Trump, but not nearly perfect. I foresee an endless number of posts like these if Biden is selected. As he has told several untruths and has had moments of some confusion. And these things are supposed to count as Biden is a Democrat. For sure as hell, they don't seem to matter the slightest bit to Republicans when it's about Trump - and to a far higher degree. In a perfect world, surely, there would be a combination of Abraham Lincoln and Winston Churchill running against this despicable, corrupt person, but now it might just be Joe Biden. So go Joe, give them hell fgs.

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Old 7th March 2020, 05:00 PM   #138
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Biden's speech at his St. Louis rally was 7 minutes.

He still managed to get in "I'm an Obiden-Bama Democrat" and slipping Kamala's name in with Beto, Amy, and Pete, possibly leaking her endorsement before it is official.
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Old 7th March 2020, 05:36 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by llwyd View Post
Oh yes, we have Donald *****' Trump. And then there is a non-Trump, but not nearly perfect. I foresee an endless number of posts like these if Biden is selected. As he has told several untruths and has had moments of some confusion. And these things are supposed to count as Biden is a Democrat. For sure as hell, they don't seem to matter the slightest bit to Republicans when it's about Trump - and to a far higher degree. In a perfect world, surely, there would be a combination of Abraham Lincoln and Winston Churchill running against this despicable, corrupt person, but now it might just be Joe Biden. So go Joe, give them hell fgs.
We keep being told that Biden has dementia/is in mental decline blah, blah, blah. What do they present as evidence? The same type of things he's been doing for decades.
Quote:
Gaffes have always been part of Biden’s public image, well before this latest presidential run. His unscripted nature is a big part of his political persona, and he’s had a habit of making news for a slip of the tongue in years past.
(Vox)

When Biden confused Burlington, Iowa, with Burlington, Vt. last summer, that must be a sign of dementia. But Trump did a similar thing when he mixed up Concord, NH with Concord, MA in February. When Trump commented on the shootings in Toledo, OH he confused that city with Dayton. Surely these gaffes must be a sign that Trump is also suffering from dementia?

Is Biden's age of concern? Yes. So is Sanders' who is even older. So is Trump's. I certainly would have preferred a younger candidate. But it's either going to be Biden or Sanders vs Trump and spreading this allegation about Biden having dementia based on nothing more than him doing what he's always done is not going to help get rid of Trump. It's just counterproductive.
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Old 7th March 2020, 06:01 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
We keep being told that Biden has dementia/is in mental decline blah, blah, blah. What do they present as evidence? The same type of things he's been doing for decades.

(Vox)



When Biden confused Burlington, Iowa, with Burlington, Vt. last summer, that must be a sign of dementia. But Trump did a similar thing when he mixed up Concord, NH with Concord, MA in February. When Trump commented on the shootings in Toledo, OH he confused that city with Dayton. Surely these gaffes must be a sign that Trump is also suffering from dementia?



Is Biden's age of concern? Yes. So is Sanders' who is even older. So is Trump's. I certainly would have preferred a younger candidate. But it's either going to be Biden or Sanders vs Trump and spreading this allegation about Biden having dementia based on nothing more than him doing what he's always done is not going to help get rid of Trump. It's just counterproductive.
Hypocrisy by some partisan figures in regards to this claim don't actually have anything to do with the veracity of the claim.

"But Trump" simply can't be the answer to all criticism.

Either that or we don't really have a problem with whataboutisms and are being hypocrites ourselves.
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Old 7th March 2020, 07:39 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
We keep being told that Biden has dementia/is in mental decline blah, blah, blah. What do they present as evidence? The same type of things he's been doing for decades.
So you're defending the claim that Biden is in mental decline by saying that he was never quite there mentally?
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Old 7th March 2020, 08:07 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Hypocrisy by some partisan figures in regards to this claim don't actually have anything to do with the veracity of the claim.

"But Trump" simply can't be the answer to all criticism.

Either that or we don't really have a problem with whataboutisms and are being hypocrites ourselves.
When faced with a choice of only two possible outcomes, comparing one to the other is not "whataboutism", is it?
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Old 7th March 2020, 08:38 PM   #143
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“Joe Biden has always been demented.” Yeah, a great presidential candidate. Trump will definitely not dine out on that during the run for the top job. Trump will destroy him.
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Old 7th March 2020, 08:39 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
We keep being told that Biden has dementia/is in mental decline blah, blah, blah. What do they present as evidence? The same type of things he's been doing for decades.
Comparison with himself as recorded years ago; it's nowhere near the same thing.
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Old 7th March 2020, 08:42 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
So you're defending the claim that Biden is in mental decline by saying that he was never quite there mentally?
If that is what you got from my posts, then I suggest a course in remedial reading comprehension.
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Old 7th March 2020, 08:42 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
So you're defending the claim that Biden is in mental decline by saying that he was never quite there mentally?
Yes, that is what is going on here.

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Old 7th March 2020, 08:48 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
“Joe Biden has always been demented.” Yeah, a great presidential candidate. Trump will definitely not dine out on that during the run for the top job. Trump will destroy him.
Getting that from what I wrote is like a Rorschach test; funny how people see things so differently.
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Old 7th March 2020, 08:51 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Getting that from what I wrote is like a Rorschach test; funny how people see things so differently.
It’s hilarious. But seriously. The Dems are better off with a candidate with their wits about them. Trump will wreck Biden and you get another four years.
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Old 7th March 2020, 08:52 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Comparison with himself as recorded years ago; it's nowhere near the same thing.
It's a claim easily made yet with no supporting evidence provided. I've yet to see anyone actually provide anything that show he's declined mentally.

Media articles say he's always been known for doing exactly what he's doing today..

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Old 7th March 2020, 08:55 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's a claim easily made yet with no supporting evidence provided. I've yet to see anyone actually provide anything that show he's decline mentally.

Media articles say he's always been known for doing exactly what he's doing today..
“He has always been demented.”
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Old 7th March 2020, 08:56 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
It’s hilarious. But seriously. The Dems are better off with a candidate with their wits about them. Trump will wreck Biden and you get another four years.
Maybe. But you still have failed to provide any evidence that Biden has any form of dementia but your own proclamations.

As I've said, to think that Dr. Jill or his family/close friends would support Biden running for POTUS if they thought he wasn't mentally up to it is absurd.
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Old 7th March 2020, 08:58 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
“He has always been demented.”
You do know that repeating something does not make it true, don't you? If you'd like to actually provide some evidence that Biden has dementia, please do. Otherwise, you're just wasting everyone's time.
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Old 7th March 2020, 09:00 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Yes, that is what is going on here.

https://media.giphy.com/media/isP4TLqhjm3zq/giphy.gif
Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12 & Rule 0

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Old 7th March 2020, 09:13 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
“Joe Biden has always been demented.” Yeah, a great presidential candidate. Trump will definitely not dine out on that during the run for the top job. Trump will destroy him.
You lying dog-faced pony soldier! Look him over and if you don’t like what you see, vote for the other Biden. He’s got hairy legs, he loves kids jumping on his lap and he was VP under president...my boss!
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Old 7th March 2020, 09:21 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Not at all. It is essential. But they should be giving advice to someone with vision and wit. America shouldn’t chose a president who is showing disturbing signs of mental decline.
And they should not be choosing a 78 year old with heart issues.
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Old 7th March 2020, 09:23 PM   #156
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I see the Bernie Bros are doing Trump's dirty work for him.
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Old 7th March 2020, 09:23 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Maybe. But you still have failed to provide any evidence that Biden has any form of dementia but your own proclamations.

As I've said, to think that Dr. Jill or his family/close friends would support Biden running for POTUS if they thought he wasn't mentally up to it is absurd.
The broader question is whether his brand of old-school political accommodation is the right answer to the right-wing's slash-and-burn borderline fascism. Trump is a symptom, not the cause, of where we are now. What will Biden do to appeal to the people who thought Trump belonged in the White House? I think there's a real possibility that Trump could beat Biden.
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Old 7th March 2020, 09:27 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The broader question is whether his brand of old-school political accommodation is the right answer to the right-wing's slash-and-burn borderline fascism. Trump is a symptom, not the cause, of where we are now. What will Biden do to appeal to the people who thought Trump belonged in the White House? I think there's a real possibility that Trump could beat Biden.
True. But you don't think there is a real possiblity that Trump cuuld best Bernie?
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Old 7th March 2020, 09:31 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
True. But you don't think there is a real possiblity that Trump cuuld best Bernie?
Sure he could. But Sanders at least has plans that he can articulate and defend that might benefit a lot of Americans. What is Biden's actual plan?
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Old 7th March 2020, 09:32 PM   #160
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Joe Biden is a ‘healthy, vigorous’ 77-year-old, his doctor declares
[...]
“The only test that hasn’t been done is the cognitive functioning test,” Olshansky added.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...1a9_story.html
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