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Tags 2020 elections , joe biden , presidential candidates

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Old 9th March 2020, 07:18 AM   #281
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Does Biden have any qualifications to be president?
He's been holding elected political positions for decades, including the vice presidency. He's actually more qualified than most presidents have been.

That doesn't mean he deserves the job, of course. Merely that he's well-qualified.
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Old 9th March 2020, 07:20 AM   #282
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"Qualification" is a weird concept (not wrong or bad to be 100% clear, just weird) to functionally apply to elected positions.

There's more "First date impression" then "Going down the list of qualifications at a job interview" to how America picks its President.
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Old 9th March 2020, 07:21 AM   #283
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The vice presidency is the least possible elected position you could get and still technically have it be an elected position.
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Old 9th March 2020, 07:45 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
He's been holding elected political positions for decades, including the vice presidency. He's actually more qualified than most presidents have been.

That doesn't mean he deserves the job, of course. Merely that he's well-qualified.
If he was running for speaker of the house that would be a good resume. But not for a chief executive.

And I don't think vice president is experience for anything.
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:10 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If he was running for speaker of the house that would be a good resume. But not for a chief executive.

And I don't think vice president is experience for anything.
I don't think what you don't think matters a small heap of beans, old sport.
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:16 AM   #286
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Who am I not to be entitled to my opinion about Bob's opinion? I'm a tax-paying American just like everyone else ought to be.
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:23 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Not sure what exactly they own, but take heart, neither establishment cannot stop Bernie. He told us so himself.
They own fielding a champion that seems obviously unfit for the fight ahead of them. All the warning signs are there. Should he fail the hindsight will be vicious, and the party will deserve every bit of it.

It is my sincere hope that the anti-Trump animus is going to be enough to run up a strong win for the Democratic party, because Biden seems weak.
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:25 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Can't vote for Sanders; he's a crazy old radical socialist from the 1960's who believes in the Lost Tribe of politics, and he'll never get his crazy universal healthcare through Congress and he praises Cuba and Stalin, and he's old and had a heart attack and he's not even a real Democrat, and his Bernie Bros are just like Donald Trump and, and, and...

Oh, look Biden made another embarrassing gaffe!
I think the difference between BernieBros and BidenBoosters is how they often identify with the problems with their particular candidates.

Biden would not have been my first pick as a candidate, but I think he is best of what's left. However, I do recognize his track record of making embarrassing gaffes is a problem and it could cost the democrats at least some votes. (I suspect the majority of BidenBoosters here feel the same way).

On the other hand, when you point out the problems with Bernie, you often get a complete failure to acknowledge the problems by the BernieBros. Point out how his statements on Castro might cost votes (especially in Florida), and you get "Obama said the same thing/its true/etc.", when the proper response would have been "Yes it was a mistake." Point out how its foolish for Sanders to attack "Democratic elites" since he will need their support in the general election, and you get "Well, they had it coming". Point out how Sander's self-labeling as a "socialist" could be problematic, and you get "Well Republicans will attack anyone". Point out how the vast majority of people are against banning private health insurance, and you get some sort of claim about how "If you don't support BernieCare you want to see people die in the streets, besides look how great of a system it is!".

Quote:
How dare you do Trump's work for him, passing on all the disinformation of the Russian bots and Putin must love you, and there is nothing wrong with Biden, he has always been this way and how can you even when the point is to get someone anyone elected just shut up shut up already!
I think the issue is that BernieBros are not just dealing with the gaffes themselves (which might be fair game), but they are trying to suggest that it is due to senility/dementia (which is at least partly speculative).

And keep in mind that at least one poster who has been supportive of Sanders (Sideroxylon) appears to have accepted a doctored video of Biden as valid.
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:31 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
Who am I not to be entitled to my opinion about Bob's opinion? I'm a tax-paying American just like everyone else ought to be.
You have no opinion about that.
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:33 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Quote:
“We can not win this election. We can only re-elect Donald Trump.”

-- Joe Biden yesterday
It turns out this video was doctored by the White House:
Twitter applied its new “manipulated media” label for the first time on Sunday to a deceptively edited video of former vice president Joe Biden. The video was shared by White House social media director Dan Scavino and retweeted by President Trump.
I haven't read the original article... paywall... but I have read other versions of the story, such as: https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/8/21...etweeted-trump

One thing is that supposedly Twitter has a policy of banning posters who repeatedly post deceptive content. It would be interesting to see if they actually follow though, as Trump and his minions ramp up their disinformation campaign. It would be funny to see Trump unable to post anymore.

Too bad facebook isn't as proactive as twitter.
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:42 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
However, my husband has been known to substitute the wrong word for something his entire life so much so that it's a family joke. He'll say "washing machine" instead of "dishwasher", etc. But he most certainly does not have dementia.
Maybe he always has! How would you know?
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:54 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I think the issue is that BernieBros are not just dealing with the gaffes themselves (which might be fair game), but they are trying to suggest that it is due to senility/dementia (which is at least partly speculative).
I've been seeing a lot more experts in geriatric neurophysiology and degenerative diseases in my timeline than usual, and they all agree: Only Bernie can save us from the other two septuagenarians.
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:56 AM   #293
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I have to admit that although I saw young males get excited over Sanders and then Yang this time around (and those lost interest, not going back to Sanders) I never knew what exactly were Berniebros other than males.
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Old 9th March 2020, 09:03 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
On the other hand, when you point out the problems with Bernie, you often get a complete failure to acknowledge the problems by the BernieBros. Point out how his statements on Castro might cost votes (especially in Florida), and you get "Obama said the same thing/its true/etc.", when the proper response would have been "Yes it was a mistake."
I'm not surprised. Whataboutisms aren't just for trumpkins, they seem to be a tool of most radicals, who tend to say or do (or support) things that aren't too easy to defend when challenged. For example, alternative medicine/spiritualist supporters tend to go "but but big pharma" and the edgy Palestine supporters almost answer answer with "but but Israel!!" as a knee-jerk reaction, no matter what you tell them.

I don't think another radical outsider with a "let's burn down the house, this isn't working" mindset and edgy supporters is really what polarised America wants or needs right now. Then again, you could say the same thing about another elderly man who might have started to exhibit symptoms of dementia. At least the Dems don't have a candidate who's both rolled into one.
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Old 9th March 2020, 09:13 AM   #295
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Deleted. The quoted post was retracted.
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Old 9th March 2020, 09:20 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
So Biden just needs to smile and shake hands while people in the background make all the decisions. Sounds perfect.
It sure beats Trump.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Bill Clinton was a centrist, but Obama was not.
Ring-wingers are adorable.
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Old 9th March 2020, 09:26 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I don't care behind which junk you're trying to hide your dishonesty.
Basic skeptical methods are junk. Why am I not surprised?

Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Yes, campaign slogans like "A vote for me is a vote for change!" and then "Hope & change!" plus even "My Presidency will be remembered as the time when everything in the whole world started getting better because of all my change!" can work, even when they come from someone who won't end up following through on them.
By that logic no single politician in history has ever run as a centrist.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Getting that from what I wrote is like a Rorschach test
Indeed. I'd say strong bias is involved.
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Old 9th March 2020, 09:36 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Oh, no's! The Republicans might "mobilize"!!
You think it's a joke? Clinton lost because not enough Democrats decided to vote, moreso than Republicans. A boring candidate on the Democratic side might just lull GOP voters into complacency.

Considering how close the last election was, it's no joke. The opposition being inspired to vote or not matters.

Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
It's OK to question the health of one of the Democratic nominees but strictly verboten for the other, because that would be doing Trump's work????
Do you deliberately miss people's points consistently, or is it just a trait?

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
As I suspected and mentioned previously, this rumor that Biden is in mental decline is being spread by Sanders supporters:
Starting to wonder if the primary process isn't just helping the opposition by weakening your own candidates.
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Old 9th March 2020, 09:52 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
His qualifications are that he is a Geriatric psychiatrist with expertise in dementia. If I provide the sourced quote, will you admit that this is evidence?
You want her to evaluate the evidence before you present it?

That's certainly a novel approach that our resident woo-woos would love to see become standard.

Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It turns out this video was doctored by the White House:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/techn...pulated-media/

That's what Trump will be feeding the American voters for the next eight months.
I'm sure the right-wingers here are fully embarrassed now.
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Old 9th March 2020, 09:55 AM   #300
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Oh. I saw that here and stupidly assumed it had been vetted by someone here instead of it being a cheap fake.

It did influence me, so now I can forget I ever saw it.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:02 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It is my sincere hope that the anti-Trump animus is going to be enough to run up a strong win for the Democratic party, because Biden seems weak.
In the long run, the party, and the country, needs Biden to lose. The electability myth has already been insanely pervasive without any examples of it actually ever being right; give it one single example when it finally coincidentally actually was right (against the most incompetent, evil, and unpopular excuse for a "President" ever), and it'll get dug in even deeper. And we have no chance of changing the course the country has been on for decades without first getting that myth out of the way.

Since that myth's spell on people hasn't broken yet in the face of its 100% failure rate so far, I don't know how many more failures it will take, but it must be done. Yes, a Biden loss in the general election would mean Trump sticking around a bit longer, but Biden's Presidency wouldn't be much different anyway, and I'm looking over a longer time-frame than that. For the good of the country, the "just give up lefties only the right can ever possibly win" myth needs to die, and Biden winning would only give it more life.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:23 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
In the long run, the party, and the country, needs Biden to lose.
Yes, because any judges that Trump happens to nominate will automatically disappear once the progressives take over.

And all the environmental harm that is occurring will magically vanish once the progressive take over.
Quote:
Yes, a Biden loss in the general election would mean Trump sticking around a bit longer, but Biden's Presidency wouldn't be much different anyway,
What a completely foolish statement. Completely baffling. The fact that a poster can't see the difference between a moderate democrat like Biden and Trump shows just how totally out of touch some BernieBros can be.

Biden would not nominate hard-right judges, which would give the republicans even more ability to corrupt the political system in the future (and putting abortion rights at risk).

Biden would not engage in any more environmental and/or financial deregulation.

Biden would reverse various racist policies (such as the border wall, and locking up children in cages)

Sure, you're not going to get "BernieCare", but you're going to end up with a president who is at least going to improve the lives of millions of Americans.

Bernie or Busters need to re-evaluate their life choices.

And did it ever occur to you that one of the reasons Biden is as popular as he is is not just "electibilty", but because they actually like his candidacy? The whole "BernieCare" is not as popular as you seem to think, and Sanders has never made much inroads with the African American community.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:39 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
Oh. I saw that here and stupidly assumed it had been vetted by someone here instead of it being a cheap fake.

It did influence me, so now I can forget I ever saw it.
See how easy disinformation has been made to work? It's insane.

And either applecorped and the other stooge didn't bother to check whether the video was genuine, didn't care, or deliberately put it up as a lie.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:40 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Yes, a Biden loss in the general election would mean Trump sticking around a bit longer, but Biden's Presidency wouldn't be much different anyway
Talk about abandoning pragmatism for ideology.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:51 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I've been seeing a lot more experts in geriatric neurophysiology and degenerative diseases in my timeline than usual, and they all agree: Only Bernie can save us from the other two septuagenarians.
But as a person who can spell cardiologist I say beware of Bernie’s heart.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:53 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
But as a person who can spell cardiologist I say beware of Bernie’s heart.
Too bad we can't put Bernie's brain in Biden's body. I'd vote for that Frankenstein before I'd vote for the two original pieces.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:54 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You think it's a joke? Clinton lost because not enough Democrats decided to vote, moreso than Republicans. A boring candidate on the Democratic side might just lull GOP voters into complacency.

Considering how close the last election was, it's no joke. The opposition being inspired to vote or not matters.
....
Let's just note here that a major factor in Clinton's loss was her smug certainty that she would win, supported by most polls. People who would have voted for Clinton decided not to stand in line in the cold and rain and snow in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania because they thought their votes weren't needed. If she had ended every speech with "I need every vote! I need your vote!," that might have made a difference. Nobody will make that mistake this time around.

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Old 9th March 2020, 10:58 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
.....
Since that myth's spell on people hasn't broken yet in the face of its 100% failure rate so far, I don't know how many more failures it will take, but it must be done. Yes, a Biden loss in the general election would mean Trump sticking around a bit longer, but Biden's Presidency wouldn't be much different anyway, and I'm looking over a longer time-frame than that. For the good of the country, the "just give up lefties only the right can ever possibly win" myth needs to die, and Biden winning would only give it more life.
It's genuinely crazy to imagine there's no difference between Biden and Trump. Biden would not lead massive social change. But he would appoint competent, honest people to lead the executive departments, he would strengthen our ties with our allies, he would not pander to Putin and other foreign dictators, he would value scientifc evidence about global warming and other issues, and he would appoint responsible, mainstream judges to the federal courts. That's plenty of reason to vote for him.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:59 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
In the long run, the party, and the country, needs Biden to lose. The electability myth has already been insanely pervasive without any examples of it actually ever being right; give it one single example when it finally coincidentally actually was right (against the most incompetent, evil, and unpopular excuse for a "President" ever), and it'll get dug in even deeper. And we have no chance of changing the course the country has been on for decades without first getting that myth out of the way.

Since that myth's spell on people hasn't broken yet in the face of its 100% failure rate so far, I don't know how many more failures it will take, but it must be done. Yes, a Biden loss in the general election would mean Trump sticking around a bit longer, but Biden's Presidency wouldn't be much different anyway, and I'm looking over a longer time-frame than that. For the good of the country, the "just give up lefties only the right can ever possibly win" myth needs to die, and Biden winning would only give it more life.
"It became necessary to destroy the town to save it.”

Seriously- I get it. Ideologically, my preference would have been Bernie, or Liz Warren. But it's not going to happen; and the idea that Biden would be as bad as a Trump now empowered by beating impeachment and winning re-election (with followers just as empowered) is just pouting nonsense. The change will come- the programs Bernie wants (as do I) will have their day- but that change is going to have to be realistically incremental; inertia is a thing in politics as well as physics, and it takes time as well as brute shouting to change a country's direction. Voting for Trump because, gosh, Joe's just as bad and what's the difference, is (for the reasons Segnosaur lists, especially the future SC judges who will end up having the final say over whether the change will be allowed to stand) just a way to ensure that the things you want today are things your children and grandchildren will still be hoping for tomorrow. You say you're "looking over a longer time-frame than" Trump's victory in the next election; your actual effect would be to extend the disaster that would be for your own hopes.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:08 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Talk about abandoning pragmatism for ideology.
I don't want to speak for Delvo, but I'm not a left-wing accelerationist. A Biden win is preferable to a Trump re-election, for the obvious reasons.

I don't think Trump is some anomaly that will simply go away. Right wing reactionary politics are here to stay. Trump is a manifestation of a festering wound in the political system. Centrists want to paper over these wounds with civility and a return to normalcy, but that won't actually address any of the root causes.

I very much worry that a Biden presidency will do little to address the root causes of our current populist outrage. There is a lot of anger in the air and there needs to be healthy response to it, otherwise the right will just weaponize it as they have repeatedly throughout history.

I very much fear that a Biden presidency would just be a brief interregnum between reactionary right reigns.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:10 AM   #311
BobTheCoward
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How quickly some forget what good governance looks like.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:17 AM   #312
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Let's just note here that a major factor in Clinton's loss was her smug certainty that she would win, supported by most polls. People who would have voted for Clinton decided not to stand in line in the cold and rain and snow in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania because they thought their votes weren't needed. If she had ended every speech with "I need every vote! I need your vote!," that might have made a difference. Nobody will make that mistake this time around.
Cold and rain and snow got nothing on pandemic.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:18 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Some here would have us believe that you can refer to people directly instead of roundabout imputation, so that if they would not have you believe that and what you believe they would have you believe is just an unusually passive-aggressive strawman they can correct you to your face.
My goodness! That's quite the overreaction to my saying "some here" instead of listing every single person by name! And you were still able to "correct (me) to my face" so apparently were weren't confused by the use of "some".

Quote:
But as it happens, yes, I would have you believe that the establishment is exactly that scared of Sanders. I really don't know why, but everything he's done has been cast in the most negative light possible, and everything Biden's done has been rainbows and unicorns.
That's the kind of hyperbolic claim that exposes your extreme bias and why you push the "dementia" rumor.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:20 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Cold and rain and snow got nothing on pandemic.
It would be pretty ironic if Trump, who has long bragged about a strong economy that wasn't due to his actions, was brought low by a pandemic-related market crash that is also not really his doing.

Maybe we do just live in a simulation, this all seems very scripted.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:23 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It would be pretty ironic if Trump, who has long bragged about a strong economy that wasn't due to his actions, was brought low by a pandemic-related market crash that is also not really his doing.

Maybe we do just live in a simulation, this all seems very scripted.
Bush took a pretty big hit from his reaction to Katrina.
And Trump is on record often enough taking credit for our supposedly strong economy that hitting him with some blame for things being off right now is hardly uncalled for.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:30 AM   #316
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
You calling them preposterous for doing it does not stop them from doing it.
And you're claiming that's what they're doing does not make it so.

You'd rather believe that all those former (now) 12 candidates are in a massive conspiracy to install a man with dementia in the WH rather than accept they just prefer him to Sanders.

Maybe that's what you need to believe in order to excuse away the fact that Sanders is not doing as well as you want.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:32 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I very much worry that a Biden presidency will do little to address the root causes of our current populist outrage. There is a lot of anger in the air and there needs to be healthy response to it, otherwise the right will just weaponize it as they have repeatedly throughout history.
And what makes you think Sanders would be any better at addressing the "root causes of our current populist outrage"? Does he have some sort of magic wand to make people magically change their attitudes?

The most likely case of a Sanders victory is not some sort of universal harmony, but even more reactionary attitudes from the republican side.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:32 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Cold and rain and snow got nothing on pandemic.
By November we'll all be either cured or dead.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:34 AM   #319
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Garden variety argument from personal incredulity.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argu...om_incredulity
I do found it incredulous when people need to resort to rumors of dementia and and mass conspiracies to explain why their candidate isn't doing as well as they'd like. I'm funny that way.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:37 AM   #320
Lurch
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
"It became necessary to destroy the town to save it.”

Seriously- I get it. Ideologically, my preference would have been Bernie, or Liz Warren. But it's not going to happen; and the idea that Biden would be as bad as a Trump now empowered by beating impeachment and winning re-election (with followers just as empowered) is just pouting nonsense. The change will come- the programs Bernie wants (as do I) will have their day- but that change is going to have to be realistically incremental; inertia is a thing in politics as well as physics, and it takes time as well as brute shouting to change a country's direction. Voting for Trump because, gosh, Joe's just as bad and what's the difference, is (for the reasons Segnosaur lists, especially the future SC judges who will end up having the final say over whether the change will be allowed to stand) just a way to ensure that the things you want today are things your children and grandchildren will still be hoping for tomorrow. You say you're "looking over a longer time-frame than" Trump's victory in the next election; your actual effect would be to extend the disaster that would be for your own hopes.
Bingo! The impatience by Bernie and fans to effect radical change is scary to a good many Americans. Imposing purity tests based on ideology alone is counterproductive, unless one can *impose* it. Where choice exists, realism is necessary in order to not frighten too many voters whose support is crucial.

Clinton was too complacent. Now Bernie is too eager. Both modes are suicidal. In this perilous time prudence must be the watchword.
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