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Old 26th March 2020, 08:42 AM   #81
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Isn’t it key to the discussion topic, Bob?
I made a statement of fact on the subject. It doesn't matter what taxes are not paid, my statement is a fact that is applicable to the discussion.
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Old 26th March 2020, 08:45 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I made a statement of fact on the subject. It doesn't matter what taxes are not paid, my statement is a fact that is applicable to the discussion.
What is the point you are making with you statement of fact and how does that relate to the point made by the OP, Bob?
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Old 26th March 2020, 08:50 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
What is the point you are making with you statement of fact and how does that relate to the point made by the OP, Bob?
My point is none of your business.
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Old 26th March 2020, 08:51 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
My point is none of your business.
Haaahhhaahha
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Old 26th March 2020, 09:01 AM   #85
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Why? Why do we let this happen?

Another successful bob'ing of a thread. He didn't have a point, he never does and he admits it openly to everyone. Yet here we are again.

They pay the smallest amount of taxes they possibly can, so in turn we should give them the smallest possible bailout we can. $.01 and a pat on the back. Good luck **** bags.
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Old 26th March 2020, 09:09 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Why? Why do we let this happen?

Another successful bob'ing of a thread. He didn't have a point, he never does and he admits it openly to everyone. Yet here we are again.

They pay the smallest amount of taxes they possibly can, so in turn we should give them the smallest possible bailout we can. $.01 and a pat on the back. Good luck **** bags.

I don't even think that.

How many other Virgin Islands (or whatever) companies can go to the US government and ask for money?


The question isn't why the US shouldn't financially assist a foreign owned and operated company, but why should they.

The answer is there s no reason. The US government has no business propping up foreign enterprises - which these cruise lines clearly are - the US government has enough on it's plate already with US companies, registered in the US, paying US taxes. The cruise lines are not US companies, not registered in the US and don't pay US taxes.


There is literally zero reason for them to get any assistance from the US.
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Old 26th March 2020, 09:16 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
There is literally zero reason for them to get any assistance from the US.
One reason would be the benefit exceeds the costs (may oray not be true).

And their failure to pay taxes before would be a sunk cost. Factoring in future taxes may be a benefit (but taxes are not a benefit in economics generally).

But why stop there? If the benefit exceeded the costs to bail out an exclusively foreign firm that exclusively employed foreigners and exclusively sold goods to foreigners, why not do that one too?
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Old 26th March 2020, 09:25 AM   #88
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I think TragicMonkey's views are far more important than all of this, "Where to they pay taxes?" discussion.

Regardless of where they or any other company pay taxes, that's really the wrong question. The right question is whether, if they go under, will Americans, other than their investors, suffer? Can we alleviate that suffering with a bailout?


We shouldn't be giving any bailouts to any companies just because we think they are nice and it's unfair that they're losing money and will go out of business. Too bad. That's business. If, however, their collapse would leave us without a vital product, or would have economic ripple effects so great that the consequences would extend far beyond that company,; then a bailout could be an option.

So, I don't care where they paid taxes. What matters to me is whether the people of America would be worse off if the cruise lines went out of business. To me, I don't see any reason to believe that we would be.

So, screw 'em. If they can survive without a bailout, good on 'em, and congratulations to those who held onto their stock through the lean times. If not, somebody else will buy their boat and sail it to Saint Thomas next year.
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Old 26th March 2020, 09:29 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I think TragicMonkey's views are far more important than all of this, "Where to they pay taxes?" discussion.

Regardless of where they or any other company pay taxes, that's really the wrong question. The right question is whether, if they go under, will Americans, other than their investors, suffer? Can we alleviate that suffering with a bailout?


We shouldn't be giving any bailouts to any companies just because we think they are nice and it's unfair that they're losing money and will go out of business. Too bad. That's business. If, however, their collapse would leave us without a vital product, or would have economic ripple effects so great that the consequences would extend far beyond that company,; then a bailout could be an option.

So, I don't care where they paid taxes. What matters to me is whether the people of America would be worse off if the cruise lines went out of business. To me, I don't see any reason to believe that we would be.

So, screw 'em. If they can survive without a bailout, good on 'em, and congratulations to those who held onto their stock through the lean times. If not, somebody else will buy their boat and sail it to Saint Thomas next year.
It seems there would be people in America that are worse off. People who receive profits from these companies live in a America. They will lose money. They will be in a worse off position.

Or do you have a different meaning of worse?
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Old 26th March 2020, 09:51 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It seems there would be people in America that are worse off. People who receive profits from these companies live in a America. They will lose money. They will be in a worse off position.

Or do you have a different meaning of worse?
They will not be if our social safety net protects them from the hardships of the industry's demise.
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Old 26th March 2020, 09:54 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
They will not be if our social safety net protects them from the hardships of the industry's demise.

Worse does not equal hardship. A very rich person who receives a share of cruise line profits will likely not qualify for a level of relief that offsets their losses.

But they would be Americans that are worse off.
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Old 26th March 2020, 09:57 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Worse does not equal hardship. A very rich person who receives a share of cruise line profits will likely not qualify for a level of relief that offsets their losses.

But they would be Americans that are worse off.
Making an investment is gambling. One assumes the potential consequences of the gamble when they place the wager.
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Old 26th March 2020, 10:01 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Making an investment is gambling. One assumes the potential consequences of the gamble when they place the wager.
Utility adjusted for risk is still higher than certain outcomes.
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Old 26th March 2020, 10:01 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Making an investment is gambling. One assumes the potential consequences of the gamble when they place the wager.
I also believe that corporations shouldn't be able to socialize their losses while privatizing their gains.

If all of the taxpayers have to pay in to bail them out, then they should have to socialize their gains as well. Fair is fair.

That goes for all of these industries, to me. That's why I support having to hand over a large portion of the stocks if you get bailed out, to the government.
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Old 26th March 2020, 10:05 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
There is literally zero reason for them to get any assistance from the US.
Exactly. There is no real upside for the US.

To me it's the equivalent of giving someone who traveled here on vacation the money. Sure, they showed up, they paid taxes on the stuff they bought (food, apparel, call girls, whatever) but that doesn't mean they should get money either. They paid taxes on stuff they bought because that's how it works. They aren't consistently providing the US with revenue like a US citizen\business does.
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Old 26th March 2020, 10:09 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Making an investment is gambling. One assumes the potential consequences of the gamble when they place the wager.
Next time they should invest in a company that would be supportable by the US.

You invest a bunch of money in a company that maximizes profits by avoiding paying taxes to the US, you lose when they go under and the US doesn't support them.
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Old 26th March 2020, 10:23 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Puerto Ricans are Americans.
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Old 26th March 2020, 10:24 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Exactly. There is no real upside for the US.
How do you know?
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Old 26th March 2020, 10:25 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
You invest a bunch of money in a company that maximizes profits by avoiding paying taxes to the US, you lose when they go under and the US doesn't support them.
Boom. /thread
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Old 26th March 2020, 10:28 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
How do you know?
I'm not getting caught up in the ********, Bob. Sell it somewhere else, I'm all full of semantic quibbling.
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Old 26th March 2020, 10:29 AM   #101
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The porn industry should get a bailout way before Cruise Lines
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Old 26th March 2020, 10:32 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
The porn industry should get a bailout way before Cruise Lines
I know you post these statements in a plea to get attention, but what does this even mean? If they're US based, every company that needs a bailout should be able to be considered. It doesn't matter their line of work, it matters their location and contribution to the US. If the porn doesn't pay taxes, then they too shouldn't get anything.
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Old 26th March 2020, 10:34 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I'm not getting caught up in the ********, Bob. Sell it somewhere else, I'm all full of semantic quibbling.
This isnt semantic. You are making a very bold claim.
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Old 26th March 2020, 10:42 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
They will not be if our social safety net protects them from the hardships of the industry's demise.
Moreover, if I give them my money, I am already worse off.

So, if we don't bail them out, they are worse off, but if we do bail them out, we are worse off. I'm not seeing a benefit to the average taxpayer coming out of this.
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Old 26th March 2020, 02:02 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
This isnt semantic. You are making a very bold claim.
Is it your business though, Bob? Why or why not?
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Old 26th March 2020, 02:19 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Is it your business though, Bob? Why or why not?
Claims carry a burden of proof. You made a claim.
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Old 26th March 2020, 02:26 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Quote:
They will not be if our social safety net protects them from the hardships of the industry's demise.
Moreover, if I give them my money, I am already worse off.

So, if we don't bail them out, they are worse off, but if we do bail them out, we are worse off. I'm not seeing a benefit to the average taxpayer coming out of this.
Furthermore, it could also be argued that even if the shareholders in the cruise ship line industries are worse off, at least part if it is their own fault.

Although they could not have known about Covid-19 prior to late last year, they should have recognized the risks from other cases where cruise ships have been affected by other communicable diseases. And they should have recognized that those companies were registered in foreign countries, so there was no guarantee of American help as a result in the case of problems.

The problems facing cruise lines were at least partly predictable, and investors still decided to buy shares in them. Its understandable that the government would handle cases where people suffer through no fault of their won. Its less understandable for the government to step in and help people who are suffering through their own idiocy.
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Old 26th March 2020, 02:40 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Claims carry a burden of proof. You made a claim.
What claim did I make, Bob?
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Old 26th March 2020, 02:49 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
What claim did I make, Bob?
Didn't realize you were not plague.
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Old 26th March 2020, 02:51 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Didn't realize you were not plague.
Were you confused, Bob?
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Old 26th March 2020, 02:54 PM   #111
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Filipinos are approx 25% of maritime workers, including cruise ships. But they are treated abysmally, paid very low wages. I would be happy to help them out but not the companies that own the ships and exploit them.
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Old 26th March 2020, 02:55 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
My point is none of your business.
Amazing
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Old 26th March 2020, 03:08 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Were you confused, Bob?
Yes
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Old 26th March 2020, 03:18 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by gabeygoat View Post
Amazing
Just stop already. You get dirty and the Bob likes it.
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Old 26th March 2020, 03:32 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Next time they should invest in a company that would be supportable by the US.

You invest a bunch of money in a company that maximizes profits by avoiding paying taxes to the US, you lose when they go under and the US doesn't support them.
I wonder what percentages of their workforce and payroll go to Americans.
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Old 26th March 2020, 06:55 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
I wonder what percentages of their workforce and payroll go to Americans.
I have only been on a Disney cruise, which was, aside from the Disney Princesses, predominately international. But that is a very Disney thing - lots of college students from all over the world on internship.
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Old 26th March 2020, 06:58 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
I wonder what percentages of their workforce and payroll go to Americans.
As noted in above links, only a small percentage of the cruise lines' workers are Americans. Some Americans in related industries, like travel agents, make money from cruises, but that wouldn't be their only source of income.

ETA:
Quote:
Major cruise companies have located their primary headquarters overseas, which for years has allowed them to pay almost no federal taxes and avoid some U.S. regulations. To staff their ships, the companies rely heavily on foreign workers from the Philippines, Indonesia and India.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...-line-bailout/

Last edited by Bob001; 26th March 2020 at 07:21 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 11:23 AM   #118
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My wife has taken a few cruises and she said that the people that work on the cruise ships all have little flags on their clothes that show what country they represent. The only ones that have an American flag are the department heads.

That's completely anecdotal so take it on face value.
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Old Yesterday, 11:26 AM   #119
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I am no longer a cruise line investor. I had a stop order in place, and I sold my shares today as it plunged past my stop point.

Overall, I got a 60% loss out of the deal. I thought cruise lines ought to be a reasonably stable industry. Turns out, not so much.

If they get a bailout, whoever bought my shares should end up with a nice return. Otherwise, he might not get his money back.
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Old Yesterday, 11:52 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I am no longer a cruise line investor. I had a stop order in place, and I sold my shares today as it plunged past my stop point.

Overall, I got a 60% loss out of the deal. I thought cruise lines ought to be a reasonably stable industry. Turns out, not so much.

If they get a bailout, whoever bought my shares should end up with a nice return. Otherwise, he might not get his money back.

Cruises are a luxury good. Nobody needs one. A business like that would be the first to get hurt in any economic downturn, let alone what we're going through now. What was your thinking about buying into them, as opposed to retail or just index funds?
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