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Old 17th September 2021, 10:55 AM   #41
ahhell
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Keep in mind, he is in denial and/or lying. He may be lying to himself more than anyone else.

Also, the most important lesson of skepticism should be humility. You and I almost certainly believe things that are not supported by evidence, maybe eve contradicted by the evidence.
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Old 17th September 2021, 08:15 PM   #42
Crazy Chainsaw
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Keep in mind, he is in denial and/or lying. He may be lying to himself more than anyone else.

Also, the most important lesson of skepticism should be humility. You and I almost certainly believe things that are not supported by evidence, maybe eve contradicted by the evidence.
Lying and Misinformation was how the hole Truth movement started.
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Old 18th September 2021, 02:47 AM   #43
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Couple of points. Almost nobody denies science outright, mostly they deny scientific evidence that has implication or outright contradicts their pre-existing beliefs, most science deniers really just pick and choose which science they like.
Just to add to this, I think it's also that they don't deny science, they deny scientists.
Conspiracy theorists often fixate on individuals- Fauci, RFK Jr, Trump, Boris Johnson- who are either idolised or demonised, depending on which 'side' they're on.
I think they approach science in much the same way. Any claim by a scientist/ expert on their side- e.g. Judy Mikovitz or Richard Gage- is held to be true, not because of the validity of the actual research or claim, but because they are 'plucky whistleblowers' or 'the voice of truth'.
On the other side of it, anything presented that contradicts their beliefs is rejected, again, not on the merits or flaws of the actual science, but because of vague claims that the individual scientists have been 'got to' or paid off in some way.
It is very rare- at least, in my own experience- to see the actual studies examined, and subjected to detailed, factual rebuttals, by the conspiracy/fundamentalist side. This is not true for the debunkers: whilst the characters and track records of the claimants are looked at, the actual research is studied as well, and in far more detail.
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Old 18th September 2021, 03:25 AM   #44
JSanderO
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It's hard to say. Gage claims he was inspired by hearing David Griffin. I believe early on there were a bunch of independent people who produced 911 conspiracy content... which appeared online and pulled people into that mindset. Loose Change I think was key. It was slick and seemed professional to many.
The collapses shocked many people because tall buildings don't collapse every day and so the only thing the public could easily refer to was a controlled demolition.
People found it a hard pill to swallow that the USG was unable to prevent the attacks with all their intell. So... they assumed there was something wrong with the official story... So what they did was propose different scenarios...
The USG knew of the event and did nothing... to use it for a pretext for more war, patriot act, ramped up military spending. It was going to be the "new Pearl Harbor" to rally the nation.
US was literally behind the event AS a false flag to get the nation to war as the cold war had left the US with no enemy to engage. Trade wars don't inspire patriotism or keep the cash flowing to the MIC.
All manner of fantasies were built around some assumption or assumptions made from whole cloth mostly putting the US in the middle of the event and not AQ. The conspiracies all have logical consistency... easy for the public to follow. I believe the 911truth "movement" can essentially be attributed to David Griffin as this quote suggests:
"Following the September 11 attacks, David Ray Griffin shifted his focus from questions of philosophy and religion to ones of politics and history, specifically American expansionism and imperialism. He intended to write a book on the subject, presenting 9/11 in terms of "blowback" for aggressive United States foreign policies of the 20th century:

Until the spring of 2003, I had not looked at any of the evidence. I was vaguely aware there were people, at least on the internet, who were offering evidence against the official account of 9/11... I knew the US government had 'fabricated' evidence to go to war several times before. Nevertheless... I did not take this possibility seriously... I was so confident that they must be wrong.[10]

After reading the work of Paul Thompson[11] and Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed,[12] he became convinced that there was a prima facie case for the contention that there must have been complicity from individuals within the United States government. He has called for an extensive investigation from the United States media, Congress and the 9/11 Commission.[13] It was then that he set about writing his first book on the topic, which he entitled The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11 (2004).[14][15] The book has been described by Peter Barber of the Financial Times as "a touchstone in the 9/11 Truth movement".[16] Griffin is a founder of Scholars for 9/11 Truth.[5]"
Gage heard DRG and thought he would get architects and engineers to support the contention that the towers could have only been brought down by controlled demolition. Gage believed that because he simply did not know the engineering or physics... but knew that buildings can be demolished with explosives.
The truth movement was founded on the notion of the "false flag"... what happened was not what we were told.... by the USG, creater of the false flag... and the media the messenger. So there were elements of truth in things like... false flag operations do exist... cover stories are issued everyday and we don't have transparency. Gage presented the Means, Motive and Opportunity "model" to frame the "inside job". This "reasoning" made sense and people were pulled into the fold by "slick" media savy presentations.
The USG and the "mainstream media" largely ignore the truthers. This was in fact evidence to the truthers that they were on to something. NIST took several years to produce it's technical study of the WTC collapses. It was of course too technical for the average person. AE911T framed the reports as government "cover ups"... and they enlisted "professionals" to refute it. So we witnessed a parade of misinformed professionals who did not understand the engineering and physics. Many simply said the collapses were impossible without explosives. We were also subjected to theories like directed energy weapons only achievable by the USG... or mini nukes and of course Gage's pet theory of "nano thermite"... the silent explosive.

All of the truthers believe the rubbish they espouse about 9/11. So it hard to call them liars. The engineer/science types SHOULD have done some due diligence and they would have found all the supporting engineering and science to show the towers came down without explosives. This material was not only published by NIST, but appeared on the web on websites of independent researchers. There were other professional studies such as ARUP which reached the same no CD conclusion.

So.... if the correct information/explanations are out there... why does the truth "community" refuse to accept it? Can there be valid alternate science? It appears to me that the same dynamics are manifesting with the pandemic. Underlying both movements is strong distrust of the government and the media. But to support this distrust... science deniers produce "junk scientists" to support their case. Look people... listen to our scientists... they have no hidden agenda and their agenda is the "truth". Who doesn't want the truth?
Once down the rabbit hole... conspiracy followers cannot escape... and they seem to lose the ability to think critically and rationally. And this makes it almost impossible to help them out of the false narratives they believe to be the "truth".

Now since the smart ones are "marketing" something... one would expect them to have done their due diligence which would have brought them in contact with the "real science". And that would mean they would have to renounce the junk science they had been espousing. They can't do it. Too committed and too much self esteem invested in their beliefs. So no... Gage, Griffin, Ryan, Hopper... the whole lot of vocal 911truth "presenters".. will never "recant" and reverse ... they believe what they say and believe that they are speaking truth (to power) and are not liars. But effectively... they deceive.

At best they might simple go silent and leave the movement. Don't bet on it.
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Old 18th September 2021, 08:09 AM   #45
steveDK
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Some of you may notice that within the Truther community a rift has occurred between those who now admit that a passenger plane hit the pentagon and the others, called no planers or plane flyovers (there was a passenger plane but it flew over and went somewhere else). This pentagon study group met in colorado a couple years ago and conclusively proved to themselves what everyone else already knew, including the hundreds of witnesses.. .that a plane crashed into the pentagon. And that the truth movement should admit this to avoid being discredited and focus on WTC controlled demolition. This development is interesting because the the flyover group Citizens Investigation Team I think its called, are the ones accused of having taken over AE911 truth, at least according to Adam Fitzgeralds recent youtube video. Now we know that cults like this often fragment, as anyone who has studied leftwing fractions or seen Monty Pythons film with the Front for liberation of Judea and Judean Liberation Front, so this rift could be a first sign. Jim hoffman, chandler and others are in the 'yes there was a plane' group, so it's a factional struggle.... It's all about belief.... 'research' , 'evidence' 'argument' is just the facade.
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Old 18th September 2021, 09:39 AM   #46
bknight
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Originally Posted by steveDK View Post
Some of you may notice that within the Truther community a rift has occurred between those who now admit that a passenger plane hit the pentagon and the others, called no planers or plane flyovers (there was a passenger plane but it flew over and went somewhere else). This pentagon study group met in colorado a couple years ago and conclusively proved to themselves what everyone else already knew, including the hundreds of witnesses.. .that a plane crashed into the pentagon. And that the truth movement should admit this to avoid being discredited and focus on WTC controlled demolition. This development is interesting because the the flyover group Citizens Investigation Team I think its called, are the ones accused of having taken over AE911 truth, at least according to Adam Fitzgeralds recent youtube video. Now we know that cults like this often fragment, as anyone who has studied leftwing fractions or seen Monty Pythons film with the Front for liberation of Judea and Judean Liberation Front, so this rift could be a first sign. Jim hoffman, chandler and others are in the 'yes there was a plane' group, so it's a factional struggle.... It's all about belief.... 'research' , 'evidence' 'argument' is just the facade.
Tell rubygray and (s)he will deny , deny maybe a lot more denials.
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