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Tags 2021 elections , California politics , Gavin Newsom

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Old 15th September 2021, 01:26 PM   #321
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
If his supporters just send enough money…
I still think Elder is going to try to turn his into a deal for a nationwide talk show of some sort.....would not be surprised to him show up on FOx News, since they have promoted him so much.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:36 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I still think Elder is going to try to turn his into a deal for a nationwide talk show of some sort.....would not be surprised to him show up on FOx News, since they have promoted him so much.
Don't the already have their token black conservative, the "See? We're not racist!" example?
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:46 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Don't the already have their token black conservative, the "See? We're not racist!" example?
Yeah, but Elder might be a bigger draw .
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Old 15th September 2021, 03:09 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Indeed.
Fox has been promoting Elder for a long time; the fact that it wasn't nearly enough is a sign of Murdoch's waning influence on US politics.
It was a huge mistake to say that Trump lost the election. I mean, a mistake to try to report reality rather than perpetuate the fantasy.
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Old 15th September 2021, 03:23 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The majority of of the tiny number of election fraud cases which have been identified in the last few elections have related to Republicans who have accidentally or deliberately committed election fraud. The steps proposed by the GOP to "secure elections" do nothing to stop those cases but do try to stop hundreds of thousands of Democratic-leaning people voting legally.

Any steps which assist in a GOP victory are fine and dandy in the eyes of the Republicans IMO.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Apparently my sarcasm escaped you.

I was mainly thinking of Trump supporters' reactions to his claim during the 2016 elections that he didn't pay taxes because he's 'smart'.



His supporters thought that was just great. Take Giuliani for example:

BBC
I think you both missed my direction of questioning.

I'm asking about the actual process of trying to rig elections by sending in lots of photocopied mail-in ballots. The question is: What actually happens at the voting control centre (I don't know the real name) if you tried this? How is it checked for? How is it confirmed? What info do they need; what will they know about who tries it?

Follow-up question: If such illegality is detected, what happens next? Shrug and laugh? Finger-wagging letter? Cops with sirens on? What?

My understanding is duplicated mail-in ballots are easily detected, and such illegalities get you in serious and immediate trouble.

The reason I ask is that plenty of cross-eyed morons from #45 on down are pre-emptively saying in public this is how mail-in votes are rigged. They are using this sort of example as a justification for "tightening the voting laws" such as in TX. So if the reasonable response is that it cannot and does not happen with evidence, and this is disseminated widely in national media, then there's less support going their way. You won't convince all of them, of course. But some fence-sitters may come down on the side of sense instead of the dark side.
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Old 15th September 2021, 03:39 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If Falconer, the ex Mayor of San Diego, a Republican who won relection in a Blue city, had been the leader to replace Newsom, I think Newsom still would have won but it would have been a LOT closer.
Already talk the GOP in Cali is splitting into two wings, a Elder wing and a Falcolner wing.
Yeah, but that is like saying that if the GOP were a sane party, GOP voters would vote for the sane candidate. And it it were a sane party, more Democratic voters might be prepared to cross the aisle to vote for a GOP candidate.

The fact that the GOP is essentially insane is the very thing that makes a sane candidate so fringe in the GOP.
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Old 15th September 2021, 03:40 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I don't think the GOP realizes how badly the "all elections are rigged" could end up hurting them. If you convince your entire voter base that the elections are rigged, and that they'll never win, then they'll just stop showing up all together.
It may hurt their numbers in an election, but even that can be made to feed into the "fraud!" narrative- if an expected total GOP vote falls short, it's not because their voters were discouraged by the party's own rhetoric, but because those darn shifty libs just threw them out. And the advantage to this narrative is that's it's basically non-falsifiable, since it relies on numbers that aren't there rather than numbers that are- it becomes a matter of welcome faith to people already disposed to assume the worst. Then, based on that specious premise, you enact policies that cut down on the number of total votes for any given election, and, voilà- now it doesn't matter that you've discouraged your own people from voting, since you've also automatically increased your share with those who still will. Decreased overall voter participation is, as Captain Swoop says, the goal, not an accident.
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Old 15th September 2021, 04:09 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here...

In any mail-in election in the USA, if I sent in 20 photocopied ballots with my name and address on them, (a) probably only the one ballot in its valid return envelope will count as a vote, and (b) I will get a visit from the local electoral control officers and possibly the long arm of the law seeking an explanation for the others.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Only if you're a Democrat. Otherwise, they applaud your ingenuity and elect you to office.
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
So ballot-rigging is just fine if you are a Republican?
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I think you both missed my direction of questioning.
What question in your first statement? There was none; it was a statement.
I fail to see how your follow up 'question' could not be seen as anything but a sarcastic commentary on the Republicans and not as a serious question.

Quote:
I'm asking about the actual process of trying to rig elections by sending in lots of photocopied mail-in ballots. The question is: What actually happens at the voting control centre (I don't know the real name) if you tried this? How is it checked for? How is it confirmed? What info do they need; what will they know about who tries it?
NOW you're actually asking questions. Every ballot comes with an official return envelope. It can't be photocopied. Unless you use this envelope, the ballot is invalid.

Quote:
Follow-up question: If such illegality is detected, what happens next? Shrug and laugh? Finger-wagging letter? Cops with sirens on? What?
It gets referred to the State Election Board. Voter fraud will land you in prison.

Quote:
My understanding is duplicated mail-in ballots are easily detected, and such illegalities get you in serious and immediate trouble.

The reason I ask is that plenty of cross-eyed morons from #45 on down are pre-emptively saying in public this is how mail-in votes are rigged. They are using this sort of example as a justification for "tightening the voting laws" such as in TX. So if the reasonable response is that it cannot and does not happen with evidence, and this is disseminated widely in national media, then there's less support going their way. You won't convince all of them, of course. But some fence-sitters may come down on the side of sense instead of the dark side.
The cross-eyed morons just repeat whatever they hear Donnie, his sycophants, and the right wing media tell them. Anyone who is still repeating the Big Lie at this point doesn't care what the facts are.
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Old 15th September 2021, 05:33 PM   #329
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BREAKING: Massive flooding in California expected from Hurricane Magatears.
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Old 15th September 2021, 05:40 PM   #330
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WOw, I just read that Newsom's first wife was Kimberley Guilfoyle ...yes the advisor to Trump and Don Jr main squeez....and they had a messy divorce, and she was a driving force behind the recall in GOP circles.

Hell hath no fury, etc.
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Old 15th September 2021, 07:38 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What question in your first statement? There was none; it was a statement.
I fail to see how your follow up 'question' could not be seen as anything but a sarcastic commentary on the Republicans and not as a serious question.
I asked first for corrections if I was wrong. Did I need a question mark?



Quote:
Every ballot comes with an official return envelope. It can't be photocopied. Unless you use this envelope, the ballot is invalid.
Thank you. And such precautions are as expected. And if you made copies of the envelope, those duplicates would be picked up as well, I presume. So the notion of "the Dems made lots of copies of ballots!!!1!!" as a viable fraud scheme is just so much raucous bollox.

Quote:
[Attempts at fraud get] referred to the State Election Board. Voter fraud will land you in prison.
As expected, which is good. So again, more raucous bollox that "The Dems libruls dun got away with it!!!!1!!".



Quote:
The cross-eyed morons just repeat whatever they hear Donnie, his sycophants, and the right wing media tell them. Anyone who is still repeating the Big Lie at this point doesn't care what the facts are.
Also obvious. But the point of my questions is that there needs to be pushback on these media. They need to be asked firmly to produce evidence of their Big Lie claims. They need to be faced with clear, expected and obvious evidence that pulls the carpet out from under their feet. IN PUBLIC. They can keep on bleating about The Big Lie, but they will lose support if they fail to justify it to reasonable folks.
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Old 15th September 2021, 10:38 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I asked first for corrections if I was wrong. Did I need a question mark?
Yes, you did need a question mark because it was not clear that it was a question. You said "Correct me if I'm wrong" which is often used rhetorically in order to make a statement rather than actually ask a question



Quote:
Also obvious. But the point of my questions is that there needs to be pushback on these media.
See? You were actually making a statement rather than asking for "a correction".

Quote:
They need to be asked firmly to produce evidence of their Big Lie claims. They need to be faced with clear, expected and obvious evidence that pulls the carpet out from under their feet. IN PUBLIC.
ASKED FIRMLY to produce evidence of their Big Lie claims?! What the hell do you think the courts and the Dems have been doing IN PUBLIC for almost a year?

Quote:
They can keep on bleating about The Big Lie, but they will lose support if they fail to justify it to reasonable folks.
You're pulling my leg now, aren't ya? Have you interacted with/heard/met/seen Trump supporters at all?
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Old 15th September 2021, 11:48 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yes, you did need a question mark because it was not clear that it was a question. You said "Correct me if I'm wrong" which is often used rhetorically in order to make a statement rather than actually ask a question.
Only in America. Here, that's a request to provide corrections if the meaning purveyed has been misunderstood. Like it says on the brochure.

Quote:
See? You were actually making a statement rather than asking for "a correction".
The statement follows your clarification of what I presumed happened with mail-in ballots but had no clear confirmation that it did. Do you understand that some things follow one after the other?

Quote:
ASKED FIRMLY to produce evidence of their Big Lie claims?! What the hell do you think the courts and the Dems have been doing IN PUBLIC for almost a year?
Not a lot. Pussy-footing about mostly AFAICT. Trying not to offend folks by not being (perceived to be) like the crazy-moron-Dumpsters? You familiar with the terms "being on the back foot" and "getting on the front foot"? If you are, the Dems need to go from the former to the latter. Get more forceful, take the fight to them.

Quote:
You're pulling my leg now, aren't ya? Have you interacted with/heard/met/seen Trump supporters at all?
Uh yuh. I think I said that you can't convince all of them. But that's not the audience I was referring to.

There's a whole bunch of non-crackpots somewhere in the MOR who are seeing ONLY the Magascum getting their say on TV and in the media. So sure enough, they are going with "Well, maybe there's something to what Donny says... Nobody is contradicting him..."

Seriously, the only people I see really taking the fight to the Magascum are the comedian man-in-the-street interviews which show how frickin' dumb they are in real life. While that's amusing for those of us here on the Light Side. it's playing to the crowd, OUR crowd. The rest of the non-Fox political commentators with attitude are also preaching to the choir. That means their views are only heard if the Magascum watch their TV channel. Which they don't, obviously.

It would be far better if, for example, the Fox commentators were challenged on their home soil - interviews demanded on their own shows, then taking on their patent lies and ripping them. If they refuse to accept interviews from opposing viewpoints, advertise that too - "FOX & FRIENDS CHICKEN OUT!" "TUCKER TUCKS HIS TAIL!"

No good whinging from the sidelines. You need to be on the field to win the game.
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Old 16th September 2021, 01:36 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Only in America. Here, that's a request to provide corrections if the meaning purveyed has been misunderstood. Like it says on the brochure.
Um..no. Not only in America.

What part of your original statement would actually be a serious question? Do you really think that sending in 20 photocopied ballots wouldn't get caught? Do you really think our voting system would be that easy to cheat, that there aren't any precautions? And when they do get caught, do you seriously think there wouldn't be questions from the law and repercussions for illegal voting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here...

In any mail-in election in the USA, if I sent in 20 photocopied ballots with my name and address on them, (a) probably only the one ballot in its valid return envelope will count as a vote, and (b) I will get a visit from the local electoral control officers and possibly the long arm of the law seeking an explanation for the others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Only if you're a Democrat. Otherwise, they applaud your ingenuity and elect you to office.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
So ballot-rigging is just fine if you are a Republican?
Following up my obviously tongue-in-cheek post with anything but an equally sarcastic reply would be just nonsensical. Who in the world would think that ballot-rigging isn't illegal for Republicans, too?

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
The statement follows your clarification of what I presumed happened with mail-in ballots but had no clear confirmation that it did. Do you understand that some things follow one after the other?
Yes, I do. Just as I understand that you wouldn't need to be 'corrected' about voting fraud being a crime here.

Quote:
Not a lot. Pussy-footing about mostly AFAICT. Trying not to offend folks by not being (perceived to be) like the crazy-moron-Dumpsters? You familiar with the terms "being on the back foot" and "getting on the front foot"? If you are, the Dems need to go from the former to the latter. Get more forceful, take the fight to them.

Uh yuh. I think I said that you can't convince all of them. But that's not the audience I was referring to.

There's a whole bunch of non-crackpots somewhere in the MOR who are seeing ONLY the Magascum getting their say on TV and in the media. So sure enough, they are going with "Well, maybe there's something to what Donny says... Nobody is contradicting him..."

Seriously, the only people I see really taking the fight to the Magascum are the comedian man-in-the-street interviews which show how frickin' dumb they are in real life. While that's amusing for those of us here on the Light Side. it's playing to the crowd, OUR crowd. The rest of the non-Fox political commentators with attitude are also preaching to the choir. That means their views are only heard if the Magascum watch their TV channel. Which they don't, obviously.

It would be far better if, for example, the Fox commentators were challenged on their home soil - interviews demanded on their own shows, then taking on their patent lies and ripping them. If they refuse to accept interviews from opposing viewpoints, advertise that too - "FOX & FRIENDS CHICKEN OUT!" "TUCKER TUCKS HIS TAIL!"

No good whinging from the sidelines. You need to be on the field to win the game.

Sure. And I'll be sure to send my advice to your country's politicians and media on what they're doing wrong and what they should do, too. You have absolutely no idea. But thanks.
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Old 16th September 2021, 07:11 AM   #335
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Conservatism is a death cult:

https://twitter.com/DrEricBall/statu...50971721273351

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The map on the left is the recall results. The one on the right is the current COVID situation.
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Old 16th September 2021, 08:01 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Nothing at all shocking about that in the least.
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Old 16th September 2021, 03:51 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah, but that is like saying that if the GOP were a sane party, GOP voters would vote for the sane candidate. And it it were a sane party, more Democratic voters might be prepared to cross the aisle to vote for a GOP candidate.

The fact that the GOP is essentially insane is the very thing that makes a sane candidate so fringe in the GOP.

Exactly. I don't think any Republican (or anyone else) had a chance in hell in this recall, whatever the pollsters may have claimed. It was a Republican scheme, in liberal California, and most importantly in the age of Trumpism. As much as I and others dislike Newsom, I think enough of us saw through this Republican BS. Maybe I give too much credit.
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Old 16th September 2021, 07:08 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm SHOCKED! SHOCKED, I TELL YA!
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Old Yesterday, 07:05 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I think you both missed my direction of questioning.

I'm asking about the actual process of trying to rig elections by sending in lots of photocopied mail-in ballots. The question is: What actually happens at the voting control centre (I don't know the real name) if you tried this? How is it checked for? How is it confirmed? What info do they need; what will they know about who tries it?

Follow-up question: If such illegality is detected, what happens next? Shrug and laugh? Finger-wagging letter? Cops with sirens on? What?

My understanding is duplicated mail-in ballots are easily detected, and such illegalities get you in serious and immediate trouble.

The reason I ask is that plenty of cross-eyed morons from #45 on down are pre-emptively saying in public this is how mail-in votes are rigged. They are using this sort of example as a justification for "tightening the voting laws" such as in TX. So if the reasonable response is that it cannot and does not happen with evidence, and this is disseminated widely in national media, then there's less support going their way. You won't convince all of them, of course. But some fence-sitters may come down on the side of sense instead of the dark side.
I think I already mentioned this, but looking at this from the Vermont perspective, mail in ballots here are enclosed in signed envelopes that include an oath of authenticity, and those envelopes are enclosed in dedicated outer envelopes. Aside from the unlikelihood of making a good photocopy of the ballot, a fraudster would have to make a good photocopy of the multicolored and odd sized envelopes as well, and risk severe penalties if caught.

While I am sure such things are possible (I just read a book about the cracking of the most complex secret codes, suggesting that anything is at least possible), I think it likely that the only way such fraud could be accomplished in a meaningful way would be by a well funded political party - most likely a well funded political party that knows it cannot win the popular vote honestly. Any effective fraud would require unusual printing, folding and perforating resources. It would also require a fairly large body of unused registrants, since each envelope contains the name and address of the voter. Obviously each one must be different, and must be checked against the registration rolls. While I have no doubt that such trickery would be easier in a large urban precinct, I think it is still chancy, since one does not know until the polls close who on the list will show up at the polls.

Here in Vermont we expect that Covid-era balloting, having worked so well, will likely be the new normal in both State and Federal elections.
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