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Old 19th September 2021, 07:39 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You really think that happened? Yes a subset of some atrocities stopped but the violence continued and continues to today with the various terrorist groups still killing the like of prison officers, never mind the violence they inflict to ensure their criminal activities continue.
I was considering calling it relative peace but the simple fact is that it's sure as hell a lot more peaceful than before Good Friday.
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Old 19th September 2021, 07:51 AM   #322
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Once again the nice new tolerant Taliban are removing women from public life:

Quote:
Female employees in the Kabul city government have been told to stay home, with work only allowed for those who cannot be replaced by men, the interim mayor of Afghanistan’s capital said on Sunday, detailing the latest restrictions on women by the new Taliban rulers.

The decision to prevent most female city workers from returning to their jobs is another sign that the*Taliban, who overran Kabul last month, are enforcing their harsh interpretation of Islam despite initial promises by some that they would be tolerant and inclusive. Under their previous rule in the 1990s, the Taliban barred girls and women from schools, jobs and public life.

...

Elsewhere in the city, the interim Kabul mayor, Hamdullah Namony, gave his first news conference since being appointed by the Taliban. He said that before the Taliban takeover last month, just under one-third of close to 3,000 city employees were women, and that they worked in all departments.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ome-by-taliban

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Old 19th September 2021, 09:50 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I'll just point out that peace came to (North) Ireland in 1998, that is three years before 9/11 even happened. This had very little if anything to do with a lack of money or weapons from the US.

But hey, don't let such facts get in the way of your terrorism apologetics.
Certainly there was a process. The real commitment that convinced people that the peace was more enduring than previous cease fires was the decommissioning of weapons, that really proceeded post 9/11.
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Old 19th September 2021, 10:43 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Once again the nice new tolerant Taliban are removing women from public life:



https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ome-by-taliban

I love bad endings.
I assume this is some kind of joke.

It is possible that the Taliban are retaliating because they feel they are not getting enough money from the West: https://www.businessinsider.fr/us/fe...anistan-2021-8.
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Old 19th September 2021, 12:21 PM   #325
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Retaliation, or simply engaging in the now expected normal day to day activities under the "New and Improved" Taliban?
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Old 19th September 2021, 12:49 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Retaliation, or simply engaging in the now expected normal day to day activities under the "New and Improved" Taliban?
They seem to be gradually going back to their old bad habits, of when they were in power between 1996 and 2001, thinking perhaps they can survive and oppress their own people with Pakistani and Chinese help (in addition to international aid).
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Old 19th September 2021, 02:01 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Retaliation, or simply engaging in the now expected normal day to day activities under the "New and Improved" Taliban?
New Improved Taliban..is that like New Improved Joker Products?
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Old 19th September 2021, 05:19 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
New Improved Taliban..is that like New Improved Joker Products?
Yes, only without the warm and friendly, smiling mascot.
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Old 19th September 2021, 06:42 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
They seem to be gradually going back to their old bad habits, of when they were in power between 1996 and 2001, thinking perhaps they can survive and oppress their own people with Pakistani and Chinese help (in addition to international aid).
What makes you think there was ever any discontinuation of those "habits"? A slick twitter campaign doesn't change inquisition style persecutions.
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Old 19th September 2021, 06:46 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I assume this is some kind of joke.

It is possible that the Taliban are retaliating because they feel they are not getting enough money from the West: https://www.businessinsider.fr/us/fe...anistan-2021-8.
The Taliban are brutalizing their own civilians as a money making scheme?
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Old 19th September 2021, 07:16 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
What makes you think there was ever any discontinuation of those "habits"? A slick twitter campaign doesn't change inquisition style persecutions.
Those persecutions of women stopped (to some extent) when the Taliban were overthrown by the Americans in 2001.
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Old 19th September 2021, 07:18 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
The Taliban are brutalizing their own civilians as a money making scheme?
I think this is a possibility (although there are certainly other reasons).

I suspect there is a possibility of convincing them to improve by offering them money, combined with common sense arguments that many people around the world understand. But this path doesn't seem to be explored by the West, perhaps for political reasons, because they are perceived as "enemies".
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Old 19th September 2021, 10:26 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I assume this is some kind of joke.

It is possible that the Taliban are retaliating because they feel they are not getting enough money from the West: https://www.businessinsider.fr/us/fe...anistan-2021-8.
No they are doing what they did the last time they were in power: remove women from public life and effectively reduce them to the status of chattel. This is what they have been killing and maiming hundreds of thousands of Afghans for.
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Old 19th September 2021, 10:53 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
What makes you think there was ever any discontinuation of those "habits"? A slick twitter campaign doesn't change inquisition style persecutions.
Like they ever gave up their bad old habits (except when fooling foreign Journalist).
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Old Yesterday, 10:00 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I think this is a possibility (although there are certainly other reasons).

I suspect there is a possibility of convincing them to improve by offering them money, combined with common sense arguments that many people around the world understand. But this path doesn't seem to be explored by the West, perhaps for political reasons, because they are perceived as "enemies".
I find the idea of bribing people to uphold human rights to be distasteful, and it would set a really bad precedent.
There is also nothing to stop the Taliban from pocketing the money and continuing to oppress the people of Afghanistan.
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Old Yesterday, 10:08 AM   #336
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News today from Captain Obvious - Afghanistan is no longer LGBT-friendly.

This would be an issue if America's ally and enormous military client, the House of Saud, wasn't equally friendly to our rainbow pals.

And as to the OMG! The Taliban Won't Let Women Work!

Just remember that Saudi allowed women to drive cars only last year.

Blame one, blame them all, not just the ones who don't buy weapons.

(The irony that most Taliban weaponry at the start of the conflict had been provided by USA to shoot Commies is pretty thick.)
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Old Yesterday, 10:15 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I find the idea of bribing people to uphold human rights to be distasteful, and it would set a really bad precedent.
There is also nothing to stop the Taliban from pocketing the money and continuing to oppress the people of Afghanistan.
If we're going to spend money on an extortion racket, I'd much rather spend money fighting it than enabling it.
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Old Yesterday, 10:18 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Because the United Nations Charter states that;

(https://www.lawteacher.net/free-law-...-law-essay.php).

The invasion of Afghanistan was neither in self-defense against an armed attack by Afghanistan (as a country) against the U.S. nor authorized by a U.N. Security Council resolution authorizing the use of force.
From that link:
Quote:
It has also been observed that, an irregular forceful attack can prompt the use of force as in the case of 9/11 attacks where the Security Council allowed the US to use force against the terrorists.
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
One might say that the 2001 attack in the U.S. was itself a revenge attack by Muslims who felt persecuted by the U.S., who were themselves acting in self-defense.
Prior to the invasion of Afghanistan, what reason did Afghan Muslims have to feel persecuted by the US? They had, after all, received significant aid from America to fight the Russians. Their support for Al Qaeda was not justifiable as a reaction to anything America had done to the Afghans.

I do agree that American foreign policy, and American military intervention around the world, has been poorly thought-out, often heavy-handed, and has unquestionably generated a backlash of anti-American feeling. The long-term blanket support of Israel, regardless of Israel's own sins, has not helped.
However, two wrongs do not make a right. Killing civilians as a reprisal for other civilian deaths is not just, nor is it legal under international law.
I am still not convinced, then, that the invasion of Afghanistan was illegal. My own personal view is that it was justified: it's just a tragedy that the aftermath was that a corrupt and self-serving central government was installed, and the people of Afghanistan abandoned. Had the reconstruction been done better, the Taliban might have failed to regain power.
That, alas, will have to remain one of the 'what-ifs' of history.
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Old Yesterday, 10:22 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
(The irony that most Taliban weaponry at the start of the conflict had been provided by USA to shoot Commies is pretty thick.)
Most of the weapons the Taliban has are low--tech weapons. IED's, AK-47s, that sort of thing. These weapons are easy to come by, and probably largely come from Pakistan.

In the 1980's, the US supplied the Mujahideen with Stinger missiles. These are high-tech weapons, and they made a decisive difference against Soviet attack helicopters. That was our main contribution. They didn't need us to supply small arms.

Many of these missiles were used up against the Soviets. Some were bought back from the Mujahideen after the Soviets left. But stinger missiles have a finite shelf life. They have to be maintained or they won't work, and neither the Mujahideen nor the Taliban had the expertise to maintain them. There was no significant stinger missile arsenal for the Taliban to inherit. Which is why you never saw US helicopters getting shot down left and right. The Taliban got an occassional helicopter with an RPG, but stinger missiles weren't a problem.

So no, the majority of the Taliban's arsenal at the start of the conflict were not supplied by the US.
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Old Yesterday, 12:00 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So no, the majority of the Taliban's arsenal at the start of the conflict were not supplied by the US.
Ok, majority might be wrong, but an awful lot, and certainly not just missiles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet...fghan_War#Rape

Does not change the irony of fighting a foe you yourself supplied with weapons.

And managed to supply quite a few more in the last few weeks.
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Old Yesterday, 12:10 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Ok, majority might be wrong, but an awful lot, and certainly not just missiles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet...fghan_War#Rape

Does not change the irony of fighting a foe you yourself supplied with weapons.

And managed to supply quite a few more in the last few weeks.
That link doesn't say what you think it says.
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Old Yesterday, 12:38 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I find the idea of bribing people to uphold human rights to be distasteful, and it would set a really bad precedent.
There is also nothing to stop the Taliban from pocketing the money and continuing to oppress the people of Afghanistan.
Quote:
I find the idea of bribing people to uphold human rights to be distasteful
It wouldn't bother me. The U.S. (and, more generally, NATO, and the West) has a responsibility with respect to the 38 millions Afghans who are in great danger. The U.S. invaded and occupied this country illegally (without a proper Security Council resolution) in 2001 (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...of_Afghanistan for some details), now they are (partly) responsible for the situation.

I personally prefer giving (conditionally) money to people to trying to kill them. If some kind of deal is made with the Taliban, focused on human rights and democracy, I don't see a priori why the Taliban would not keep their word, and implement their part of the deal. In 2020, they promised to stop attacks against U.S. troops provided American forces withdraw, and it seems they abided by that promise.

So, I don't see why Joe Biden couldn't invite the Taliban leader at Camp David (if necessary) and try to work out some kind of deal with him, with the basic idea being "We, the West, restore our financial support, provided you, the Taliban, respect basic human rights and limited democracy, with perhaps Iran as a imperfect model".

We know that there already is an area of agreement between the U.S. and the Taliban: they both "dislike" the Islamic State. In addition, these two haven't fought each other for some time now: since the Trump Doha agreement of 2020 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doha_Agreement_(2020)).

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Old Yesterday, 04:22 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That link doesn't say what you think it says.
No, that's a war crimes discussion.

This is the arms & money piece: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet...#United_States

$20 billion buys a few weapons.
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Old Today, 02:22 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
It wouldn't bother me. The U.S. (and, more generally, NATO, and the West) has a responsibility with respect to the 38 millions Afghans who are in great danger. The U.S. invaded and occupied this country illegally (without a proper Security Council resolution) in 2001 (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...of_Afghanistan for some details), now they are (partly) responsible for the situation.
That link does not show that the invasion was illegal, just that some people thought it was, and some didn't.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I personally prefer giving (conditionally) money to people to trying to kill them. If some kind of deal is made with the Taliban, focused on human rights and democracy, I don't see a priori why the Taliban would not keep their word, and implement their part of the deal.
Because there would be no means of enforcing that deal, should they renege on it, and because the Taliban's version of Islam is opposed to democracy and what we would call human rights.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
In 2020, they promised to stop attacks against U.S. troops provided American forces withdraw, and it seems they abided by that promise.

So, I don't see why Joe Biden couldn't invite the Taliban leader at Camp David (if necessary) and try to work out some kind of deal with him, with the basic idea being "We, the West, restore our financial support, provided you, the Taliban, respect basic human rights and limited democracy, with perhaps Iran as a imperfect model".

We know that there already is an area of agreement between the U.S. and the Taliban: they both "dislike" the Islamic State. In addition, these two haven't fought each other for some time now: since the Trump Doha agreement of 2020 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doha_Agreement_(2020)).
The Taliban did stop attacking US forces- but increased attacks against Afghan government forces instead.
They have repeatedly shown contempt for human rights, and I think it the height of naivety to imagine that injections of money would change that. In fact, I would suggest it would embolden them. Again, there would be no way to enforce that deal and both sides know it.
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Old Today, 08:00 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The U.S. invaded and occupied this country illegally (without a proper Security Council resolution) in 2001 (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...of_Afghanistan for some details), now they are (partly) responsible for the situation.
The invasion was perfectly legal. The Taliban were already subject to UN sanctions for hosting and supporting international terrorists and all but explicitly threatened with invasion if they did not cease doing so.

The fact that the Taliban themselves did not directly participate in attacks against the US is utterly pointless because of the level of support they gave Al-Qaeda. Supporting irregular military forces or terrorists that attack another state is an act of war. Thus the US and other western countries were completely justified in attacking the Taliban in self-defence. Diplomacy was never a option with the Taliban.
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Old Today, 09:04 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
China's influence is growing because it helps countries (all be it in their own self interest), but it does not judge, it does not punish, or attack, or kill in the way the US does.
China absolutely does do this, and worse, up to the limit of its control and influence in the world.
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