IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags cern , higgs boson , physics

Reply
Old 4th July 2012, 12:28 PM   #121
edd
Master Poster
 
edd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,120
MattusMaximus: yes, and I should say your 'bottom line' was always correct. The text you quote is a little ambiguous but it's consistent with what I'd consider right ;-)

Incidentally my jaw nearly fell off this morning when the BBC posted an article online that got it spot on - it's such a common error it's honestly astounding when the media gets it right!
__________________
When I look up at the night sky and think about the billions of stars out there, I think to myself: I'm amazing. - Peter Serafinowicz
edd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 12:29 PM   #122
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
How difficult it is to draw a balance between reading the news about this awesome discovery (like as not) and avoiding the staggeringly ignorant comments of the general public. "So what?" "Why don't these so-called scientists do something useful?" "Why not use the money to feed starving Africans!?" "They don't even know what use this will be - what's the point?"

Thick people - OK.
People with opinions - OK.
Thick people with opinions - not OK.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 12:29 PM   #123
Bram Kaandorp
Master Poster
 
Bram Kaandorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Limmen, The Netherlands
Posts: 2,534
Originally Posted by oglommi View Post
When we see how fast alternative medicine will incorporate this new discovery maybe it's time to reevaluate our skepticism?

Just a thought.
Well, I do think that "Higgs woo" will become a new object in the skeptical war on bovine feces.
__________________
Keep your questions terse, and your answers terser.

Wait, "terser" is a word, right?
Bram Kaandorp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 12:33 PM   #124
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,386
Originally Posted by ben m View Post
It's reasonably safe to say "creating".



There's no reasonable sense in which bosons "have size" or "take up space". It's like looking at a radio antenna and asking whether there's space between the radio waves.
I didn't just mean the bosons or photons or gravitons for that matter. I just meant of all the elementary particles what do you get.

We tend to view solid things as taking up the amount of space that their visible mass occupies. But there's a lot space between the molecules, and a lot of space between the protons and electrons within the molecules and a lot of space between the particles that make up the protons and neutrons and so on. I was just wondering what you'd have left if you squeezed all the proverbial air out of the molecule balloons.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 12:34 PM   #125
Tubbythin
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,202
Originally Posted by edd View Post
Incidentally my jaw nearly fell off this morning when the BBC posted an article online that got it spot on - it's such a common error it's honestly astounding when the media gets it right!
BBC news caption I read referred to CERNE. So they don't get it all right.
Tubbythin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 12:37 PM   #126
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,386
Originally Posted by Tubbythin View Post
BBC news caption I read referred to CERNE. So they don't get it all right.
Maybe that's the French spelling.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 12:42 PM   #127
MattusMaximus
Intellectual Gladiator
 
MattusMaximus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,948
Originally Posted by edd View Post
MattusMaximus: yes, and I should say your 'bottom line' was always correct. The text you quote is a little ambiguous but it's consistent with what I'd consider right ;-)
Thanks, edd

Quote:
Incidentally my jaw nearly fell off this morning when the BBC posted an article online that got it spot on - it's such a common error it's honestly astounding when the media gets it right!
Well, to be fair to the media, I have an advanced degree in physics, I teach physics at both the high school and college level, and I try to be as technically correct as I am able, but I still screw up some of the details on the really cutting-edge stuff like this discovery (such as I did above).

And if someone with my level of training and interest can make such errors, it isn't hard to imagine the typical media wonk making them as well.

Thanks for helping to put the 'E' in JREF!
__________________
Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher
"We ****** up the air, the water, we ****** up each other. Why don't we just finish the job by flushing our brains down the toilet?" -- John Trent, In the Mouth of Madness
MattusMaximus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 12:50 PM   #128
Jodie
Philosopher
 
Jodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,231
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I didn't just mean the bosons or photons or gravitons for that matter. I just meant of all the elementary particles what do you get.

We tend to view solid things as taking up the amount of space that their visible mass occupies. But there's a lot space between the molecules, and a lot of space between the protons and electrons within the molecules and a lot of space between the particles that make up the protons and neutrons and so on. I was just wondering what you'd have left if you squeezed all the proverbial air out of the molecule balloons.
The beginnings of a black hole????
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd
Jodie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 12:56 PM   #129
MattusMaximus
Intellectual Gladiator
 
MattusMaximus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,948
Originally Posted by baron View Post
How difficult it is to draw a balance between reading the news about this awesome discovery (like as not) and avoiding the staggeringly ignorant comments of the general public. "So what?" "Why don't these so-called scientists do something useful?" "Why not use the money to feed starving Africans!?" "They don't even know what use this will be - what's the point?"

Thick people - OK.
People with opinions - OK.
Thick people with opinions - not OK.
I think a wonderful way to address these sort of questions/criticism was summed up very well by the director of CERN in this morning's press conference. The last question they took was along these lines, and he answered it beautifully...

Download the press conference here:
https://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1459604
--> go to the 58:38 mark in the video for the question and response.

I have transcribed the response below:
Quote:
First of all, I don't think you should neglect other things, you have to find the right balance to do things. And one of the, to my mind, most important balance is to balance science in the sense that you support applied science and fundamental science. To me, there's only one science, and there's a whole grey area, so it ranges from absolutely fundamental to absolutely applied. But you have to keep in mind there is a virtuous circle: you have fundamental science which drives innovation which drives applied science... and if you break this virtuous circle, you break something for mankind. So you have to be very careful not to break that circle somehow.

Secondly, in a more blunt statement, if there's no fundamental or basic science, then you lose the basis for applied science. And you should look around at how many things came out of the basic, "blue-sky" science compared to the applied science.

You have to get the right balance. If you have one sack of corn, do you eat it or do you plant it? In both cases you are going to starve and die. You have to find the balance: part of it you eat, and part of it you plant. And this balance has to be found...

And you should also see what comes out of this [basic] scientific innovation. I mean, 23 years ago, the World Wide Web was born here, and this has changed the world dramatically. It was born because we needed it, because we were doing our science.

So if you take all of this together, I think there's a lot of justification, once you find the right balance, but the right balance cannot mean that you suppress either fundamental or that you suppress applied science.
I especially like his analogy about the corn. Too bad that quote is too long for a sig file
__________________
Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher
"We ****** up the air, the water, we ****** up each other. Why don't we just finish the job by flushing our brains down the toilet?" -- John Trent, In the Mouth of Madness

Last edited by MattusMaximus; 4th July 2012 at 12:59 PM.
MattusMaximus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 12:57 PM   #130
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 28,589
This is a massive achievement.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 12:57 PM   #131
MattusMaximus
Intellectual Gladiator
 
MattusMaximus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,948
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I didn't just mean the bosons or photons or gravitons for that matter. I just meant of all the elementary particles what do you get.

We tend to view solid things as taking up the amount of space that their visible mass occupies. But there's a lot space between the molecules, and a lot of space between the protons and electrons within the molecules and a lot of space between the particles that make up the protons and neutrons and so on. I was just wondering what you'd have left if you squeezed all the proverbial air out of the molecule balloons.
That space is simply vacuum. So there's nothing to "squeeze out", in that sense.

Or are you referring to simply forgoing the intervening space and putting all those particles together into the smallest volume possible? If so, then I have to agree with the statement above that you're likely moving towards something akin to either a neutron star or black hole.
__________________
Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher
"We ****** up the air, the water, we ****** up each other. Why don't we just finish the job by flushing our brains down the toilet?" -- John Trent, In the Mouth of Madness

Last edited by MattusMaximus; 4th July 2012 at 01:00 PM.
MattusMaximus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 01:05 PM   #132
xtifr
Graduate Poster
 
xtifr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,299
Originally Posted by Olowkow View Post
Surely the "god particle" must consist of three parts. {groan}
Originally Posted by bpesta22 View Post
The father, the boson, and the holy spirit.
No, the Brahmon, the Vishnon, and the Shivon.
__________________
"Those who learn from history are doomed to watch others repeat it."
-- Anonymous Slashdot poster
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore."
-- James Nicoll
xtifr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 01:11 PM   #133
Tubbythin
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,202
Originally Posted by xtifr View Post
No, the Brahmon, the Vishnon, and the Shivon.
H0, H+ and H-?
Tubbythin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 01:25 PM   #134
pakeha
Penultimate Amazing
 
pakeha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
Originally Posted by Jorghnassen View Post
Call me when they find the "mother of god" particle, the Higgs bosom which gives all existence a meaning, not mere mass.
Nominated.
__________________
How many zeros? Jabba
pakeha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 02:01 PM   #135
Tubbythin
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,202
Can I bet on who will win this/next year's Nobel prize in physics?
Tubbythin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 02:04 PM   #136
fuelair
Banned
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,581
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Is that original?

Rolfe.
Not likely - it was used on MSNBC last night -Rachel Maddow my wife thinks - but says it could have been Lawrence O'donnel. Either way, she passed it to me last night.
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 02:09 PM   #137
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
Originally Posted by Tubbythin View Post
Can I bet on who will win this/next year's Nobel prize in physics?
Don't Nobel prizes usually go to small teams?
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 02:14 PM   #138
Tubbythin
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,202
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Don't Nobel prizes usually go to small teams?
At most four I think. Of which one I expect to be Peter Higgs in the next couple of years.
Tubbythin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 02:21 PM   #139
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
Originally Posted by Tubbythin View Post
At most four I think. Of which one I expect to be Peter Higgs in the next couple of years.
Ah, yes, I didn't realize he was still alive.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 02:26 PM   #140
stilicho
Trurl's Electronic Bard
 
stilicho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,757
Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Well I for one was blown away by the news although they said it was a bit premature and would have liked to have a had a couple of more weeks to prepare. Evidently CNN was not impressed. I turned on the news at noon to see what folks were saying and all they were talking about was some fungus in the Himalaya's that acts like viagra. They didn't even mention it.

....
There have been major articles in the National Post and a link on the Bloomberg home page so I am satisfied that the media has recognised this as a significant story.
__________________
"Suppose you're thinking about a plate of shrimp. Suddenly someone will say, 'Plate' or 'Shrimp' or 'Plate of shrimp,' out of the blue... It's all part of the cosmic unconsciousness." -- REPO MAN

LondonJohn: "I don't need to cite."
Rolfe: "I really hate lawyers."
stilicho is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 02:32 PM   #141
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 28,589
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
This is a massive achievement.
Sheesh, tough crowd...
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 03:17 PM   #142
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,386
Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
... are you referring to simply forgoing the intervening space and putting all those particles together into the smallest volume possible? If so, then I have to agree with the statement above that you're likely moving towards something akin to either a neutron star or black hole.
Wouldn't a black hole be a singularity if it were all those particles together in the smallest volume possible?

Are neutron stars the same density as black holes? (I know the BH has more mass unless it evaporates or whatever they do.)

Black holes = infinitely dense?

Sorry, I know this is all basic stuff but the answers I find on Google aren't exactly the ones I'm asking.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 03:27 PM   #143
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Are neutron stars the same density as black holes? (I know the BH has more mass unless it evaporates or whatever they do.)

Black holes = infinitely dense?
If you define density for a black hole as mass divided by volume enclosed by the event horizon then black holes have finite density. And they can come in a very wide variety of densities, including as low density as hydrogen gas here on Earth if they are very large black holes.

Both black holes and neutron stars come in a variety of masses. Though neutron stars are subject to more constraints that lead to a lesser range of mass and densities.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 03:34 PM   #144
ben m
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,387
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
We tend to view solid things as taking up the amount of space that their visible mass occupies. But there's a lot space between the molecules, and a lot of space between the protons and electrons within the molecules and a lot of space between the particles that make up the protons and neutrons and so on. I was just wondering what you'd have left if you squeezed all the proverbial air out of the molecule balloons.
It's simply not a good way of dealing with it. I know it's common to say that "an atom is mostly empty space" but it isn't, really. The electrons in the atom are, in some sense, "filling" all the space in it already.

Why do people say electrons are tiny and/or pointlike? Well, if you hit them with a really short-wavelength probe, you can sort of force them to behave as tiny and pointlike. But an atom isn't doing that, an atom is letting them hang around with long wavelengths.

How about all the stuff whereby an alpha particle can "go right through" an atom "without hitting anything"? That has nothing to do with spatial gaps between things, or emptiness, or hollowness---it's just a statement about how strong the alpha/electron interaction is.
ben m is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 03:41 PM   #145
Vorpal
Extrapolate!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
If you define density for a black hole as mass divided by volume enclosed by the event horizon then black holes have finite density. And they can come in a very wide variety of densities, including as low density as hydrogen gas here on Earth if they are very large black holes.
Very large black holes have effectively infinite volumes. A completely classical (nonevaporating) black hole has infinite spatial volume.
__________________
For every philosopher, there exists an equal and opposite philosopher. They're both wrong.
Vorpal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 03:56 PM   #146
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
Originally Posted by Vorpal View Post
Very large black holes have effectively infinite volumes. A completely classical (nonevaporating) black hole has infinite spatial volume.
You're not applying the definition of volume that would most commonly be used to determine a black holes density, are you?
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 04:06 PM   #147
Vorpal
Extrapolate!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
You're not applying the definition of volume that would most commonly be used to determine a black holes density, are you?
I am. There is an ambiguity for black holes because we're taking the volume of a spatial region at some instant in time, and the 'instant in time' is frame-dependent, but allowing for some small caveats my statement was correct.
__________________
For every philosopher, there exists an equal and opposite philosopher. They're both wrong.
Vorpal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 04:23 PM   #148
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
Originally Posted by Vorpal View Post
I am. There is an ambiguity for black holes because we're taking the volume of a spatial region at some instant in time, and the 'instant in time' is frame-dependent, but allowing for some small caveats my statement was correct.
If you're applying the most common definition of volume used to compute black hole density then why aren't black hole density citations a lot closer to zero?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittarius_A*
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/304/5671/704.abstract

Neither of those density citations appear to be using a nearly infinite volume for Sagittarius A*.

Last edited by RecoveringYuppy; 4th July 2012 at 04:33 PM.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 04:33 PM   #149
Vorpal
Extrapolate!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Neither of those density citations appear to be using a nearly infinite volume for Sagittarius A*.
At a guess, they have a specialized definition of density disconnected from physical volume of a spatial region. Why?
__________________
For every philosopher, there exists an equal and opposite philosopher. They're both wrong.
Vorpal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 04:38 PM   #150
Hercules Rockefeller
Woof!
 
Hercules Rockefeller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,137
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Sheesh, tough crowd...
Yeah, people are already making Higgs jokes en masse.
__________________
Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra
Hercules Rockefeller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 04:43 PM   #151
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
Originally Posted by Vorpal View Post
At a guess, they have a specialized definition of density disconnected from physical volume of a spatial region. Why?
The "specialized version" they appear to be applying would be the mass divided by the volume of a sphere using the formula taught in elementary school (such school's typically located outside of black holes).
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 04:47 PM   #152
Vorpal
Extrapolate!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
The "specialized version" they appear to be applying would be the mass divided by the volume of a sphere using the formula taught in elementary school (such school's typically located outside of black holes).
Alright. That's rather specialized because, as I've said, that formula has absolutely nothing to do with the spatial volume of the region enclosed by the horizon. It may give an empirically interesting measurement (in fact it's just a rescaling of surface area), but it is not the volume in any physically meaningful sense.
__________________
For every philosopher, there exists an equal and opposite philosopher. They're both wrong.
Vorpal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 04:51 PM   #153
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
Originally Posted by Vorpal View Post
Alright. That's rather specialized because, as I've said, that formula has absolutely nothing to do with the spatial volume of the region enclosed by the horizon. It may give an empirically interesting measurement (in fact it's just a rescaling of surface area), but it is not the volume in any physically meaningful sense.
In fact, it leads to a perfectly good answer to the question that was asked by Skeptic Ginger.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 05:03 PM   #154
Vorpal
Extrapolate!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
In fact, it leads to a perfectly good answer to the question that was asked by Skeptic Ginger.
I'm not in any way contradicting that large black holes can be reasonably said to have low density, since they're actually defined by the horizon and not the singularity. I'm simply saying your conclusion was even more true than you suggested.

Though the singularity itself has no volume, so in the other sense it has infinite density (or very large, since we don't know what happens before that).
__________________
For every philosopher, there exists an equal and opposite philosopher. They're both wrong.
Vorpal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 05:26 PM   #155
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
Okay, sorry. I think in the context of the original question we're having an "I think our minds may be too highly trained Majikthise" moment.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 06:25 PM   #156
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 45,220
Originally Posted by edd View Post
Incidentally my jaw nearly fell off this morning when the BBC posted an article online that got it spot on - it's such a common error it's honestly astounding when the media gets it right!
Is this the article?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-18702455

(This one helped me understand the sigma stuff.)

I like this part:

Quote:
They claimed that by combining two data sets, they had attained a confidence level just at the "five-sigma" point - about a one-in-3.5 million chance that the signal they see would appear if there were no Higgs particle.

However, a full combination of the CMS data brings that number just back to 4.9 sigma - a one-in-two million chance.

Prof Joe Incandela, spokesman for the CMS, was unequivocal: "The results are preliminary but the five-sigma signal at around 125 GeV we're seeing is dramatic. This is indeed a new particle," he told the Geneva meeting.
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 07:43 PM   #157
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 25,102
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Okay, sorry. I think in the context of the original question we're having an "I think our minds may be too highly trained Majikthise" moment.
As I see the difference between you, Vorpal in the context of Skeptic Ginger's question ...

Inside the event horizon anything can be regarded as "volume" from our point of view, because out here we're protected from it. In our protected space we can fly around outside the horizon, take GPS measurements to get the volume, weigh the singularity by other means and come up with a density. Our protection guarantees that everything remains consistent with the evidence we're able to gather. No judge will yet provide a warrant to search beyond the horizon.

There's a name for this which I've forgotten, but the general principle helps keep me sane.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 08:09 PM   #158
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
Cosmic Censorship may be the name you're referring to?
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 08:40 PM   #159
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 28,964
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/co...5806418_n.jpeg

__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2012, 08:50 PM   #160
Robert Oz
Graduate Poster
 
Robert Oz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,455
Originally Posted by ben m View Post
The Higgs boson is an unstable (something like 10^-25 seconds) particle whose interactions are, in the context of the Standard Model, 100% known.

Many bosons died to bring us this information.
__________________
"I'll be back before you can say Antidisestablishmentarianism." - Blackadder
Robert Oz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:03 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.