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Tags general discussion , holocaust , holocaust denial , World War II history

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Old 21st September 2017, 07:13 PM   #281
Dash80
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
Why don't you address this?

Index of Published Evidence on Mass Extermination in Auschwitz and Auschwitz-Birkenau:


http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...ce-on.html?m=1
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:43 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
So, you are denying that you have said repeatedly that all evidence for genocide is lies. So how did you arrive at that since you obviously haven't examine the evidence?

Isn't rejecting evidence without examining it and then demanding more of it - just to ignore or dismiss it, not trolling?
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:46 PM   #283
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Question for the Holocaust experts here:

If one had somehow never heard of the genocide that occurred in WWII and you decided to read all known evidence for it. How long would this take? (guestimate) based on 40 hours a week devoted to such? Thanks
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:52 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Question for the Holocaust experts here:

If one had somehow never heard of the genocide that occurred in WWII and you decided to read all known evidence for it. How long would this take? (guestimate) based on 40 hours a week devoted to such? Thanks

Many, many times longer that it would take any reasonable, intelligent person reading it to conclude that the Holocaust really happened.

The evidence for the reality of the Holocaust is absolutely overwhelming.

The evidence that it was all a hoax is.... well, to be blunt, there isn't any.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 01:35 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Question for the Holocaust experts here:

If one had somehow never heard of the genocide that occurred in WWII and you decided to read all known evidence for it. How long would this take? (guestimate) based on 40 hours a week devoted to such? Thanks
Yad Vashem says it has 150 million pages in its archive. USHMM has 100-200 million pages. Both copy from other archives then exchange microfilms and lately, digital files, so there is a lot of overlap between them. However, neither has copied *everything* that would be relevant from other archives. Reading through all of the evidence would require knowing over 20 different languages, so the hypothetical question is to some extent impossible, but I'd think that even just with German and English there would be that many pages to read through, especially since the state-level German archives have a lot of material that hasn't been fully copied to YV and USHMM yet.

The question is how many pages should one read through before enough is enough?

Obviously, some collections are more important than others. The Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial pretrial investigation ran to 88 volumes, and the contents are spelled out here - well over 1000 interrogations of SS men, bystanders and former prisoners. This is about 18,000 pages of material. The Auschwitz central construction office archive (Zentralbauleitung) runs to about 90,000 pages of contemporary Nazi documents. The most important documents on the crematoria are in a few files of several hundred pages, but important stuff is scattered in all kinds of pages. That is just two collections regarding one camp, Auschwitz, and there are literally hundreds of collections relevant to Auschwitz.

Note that archives won't include published memoirs, although many manuscripts that were later published as memoirs are in different archives. Nobody has an exact count of relevant published memoirs, but I think there are about 2000-3000. These can be short, between 100-200 pages, but some are obviously longer.

For every published memoir, there might be 20-50 unpublished accounts. The total number of witness testimonies of one form or another is certainly over 100,000, across the whole of the Holocaust. Auschwitz predominates for the camps since there were many more Jewish survivors, non-Jewish survivors, bystanders and SS men, so probably 50,000. By contrast, there are maybe 500 witnesses of direct relevance to Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Chelmno, but just counting the survivors and SS (and not including Trawnikis) there are over 1000 separate statements regarding Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka, as estimated by German historian Sara Berger in her book on these camps.

The fixation on camps obscures the fact that much of the Holocaust unfolded across the whole of Europe. Round-ups and deportations from different parts of Europe have left 10s of millions of pages of material of all kinds. The killings that happened alongside deportations in Poland, or in lieu of deportations in the Soviet Union, left a similar amount of material. Each city and town was investigated at least twice and sometimes many times.

For example, Sonderkommando 4a is well known as the organiser of the Babi Yar massacre; the West German pretrial investigation is about 40,000 pages, and this does not include actual trials. But Police Regiment South also participated, and the pretrial investigation for this unit adds another 14,000 pages. Hans at HC hasn't finished surveying this evidence, despite his index identifying 62 witnesses already, along with 44 contemporary sources and documents.

Multiply this by many other cities. The West German pretrial investigation into the Riga ghetto is about 20,000 pages long.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 02:49 AM   #286
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To bring this full circle, Nick Terry mentions at the end of his post Hans Metzner's HC blog discussion of Babi Yar sources.

Links to Hans' discussion were posted, for Saggy to respond to, back in early August here - and, as is familiar to us, Saggy would not read or deal with them at the time, despite his self-proclaimed interest in Babi Yar ("one of my favorite topics"). Without mentioning a single point in Hans' discussion, Saggy declared that "the content [of 2 posts on Babi Yar] is all garbage." And Saggy proceeded to post a series of links to HD quackery evincing not a speck of familiarity with the range of sources.

I do not expect Saggy to be arsed to read Hans' blog articles now, either.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 03:31 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Nick Terry View Post
..... By contrast, there are maybe 500 witnesses of direct relevance to Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Chelmno, but just counting the survivors and SS (and not including Trawnikis) there are over 1000 separate statements regarding Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka, as estimated by German historian Sara Berger in her book on these camps.

......
Any index of those names?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 03:47 AM   #288
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Thanks for the links Nick and Lemmy, despite the constant diet of Saggy stupidity there is good information to be found around here after all.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 04:34 AM   #289
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I will add a sort of side note of my own, somewhat relevant to Nessie's query but only responding to it very partially: when I looked into Jansson's argument about the so-called "steam chambers" of Treblinka, I was able to survey testimonies from 83 Treblinka survivors (what I had was in English and ranged from short excerpts to full testimonies).

Of the 83 sources I had, only about half (43) mentioned how the SS killed Jews at Treblinka - with only 3 (all these from the earliest weeks of the camp's history -July/August, before the arrival of Stangl) mentioning steam vs 36 describing gas as the murder method. The testimonies of Krzepicki and Rabinowicz, whom I've tried getting Saggy to discuss, were among these testimonies - and I had a section of my discussion devoted to each of these two young men.

I also surveyed 17 reports from the Polish underground and its press from 1942 in which Treblinka was mentioned, with a similar result - an overwhelming "gas narrative."

My conclusion about the early testimonies was this: "It becomes clear, from the various sources, that escapees from Treblinka, and others who were aware of the camp, did not know how those taken to the 'bathhouses' were being murdered inside. The SS did not give informational tours or provide handy brochures. So people working in the camp made conjectures, compared observations, thoughts, and rumors, and eventually formed a consensus that engine exhaust was the means of murder."
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Old 22nd September 2017, 04:36 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
The degenerate absurdity
Why is everything "degenerate" with you? Is that like a fetish word for you?

Quote:
is well illustrated by Hoess's torture and 'confession'.
Evidence that his testimony was coerced?

Quote:
Hoess was by his own account the grand architect of the hoax, working with Eichmann to find a method of killing the Jews, etc. Yet he was not tried at Nuremberg, he testified as a defense witness ! How freaking absurd can it get?
What are you talking about? Hoss was executed after his own trial. Are you not aware that criminals are often called to testify in order to catch other criminals?

Quote:
At the trial his affidavit was read into the record in which he 'confessed' to gassing 2 million Jews and killing another .5 mill by other means.
And you dismiss this because?

Quote:
Here is what he wrote about the affidavit after the trial ...
And?

Quote:
The fact that Hoess's 'testimony' is still cited as evidence of the hoax indicates the chutzpah and total depravity of the hoax establishment. These people are liars the likes of which the world has never seen.
You have not given a single reason why his testimony should be dismissed. You simply said that he made his testimony, that he was poorly treated, and then... what? This is one of your worst attempts at dismissal yet.

Make a man of yourself. Make a god damned point.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 04:48 AM   #291
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And one more side note: I've also surveyed Majdanek witness testimonies. I did so somewhat similarly to what I described above for Treblinka (survivors and Polish underground reports) - but with the addition of testimonies of SS men and Aufseherinnen. I focused on aspects of mass murder in the camp, which meant surveying witnesses who spoke or wrote of gassing, small shooting actions, Erntefest, and corpse disposal.

In all I surveyed about 200 testimonies, 111 of which mentioned the gas chambers and/or gassing process.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:29 AM   #292
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If millions of Jews were not murdered, where are their offspring now? Emigration to Israel or North America can only account for those mainstream history accepts already as survivors.

Take for example the half million Hungarian Jews that Eichmann was so proud of: rounded up and transported to Höss in 1944, they were a very high percentage of the Jewish population. If they were not murdered, then most of them should have survived, even if you allow for the violence, famine and deteriorating public health of a losing wa effort. For the survivors under 40 years of age, there were three possibilties:
1. Have offspring with fellow Hungarian Jews
2. Have offspring with mates outside of that group
3. Remain childless

If 1 were the usual case, there should today be an identifiable population of several 100,000 Hungarian Jews
If 2 were the case, then today, almost 3 generations later, there should be well over 2 million people alive whose parents, grand parents or great grand parents survived Eichmann's Hungarian deportations
If 3 were the case, then ... why on earth would they choose not to procreate?? That would be very foolish if World Domination is the objective!

So HDers, where are the offspring of the Hungarian Jews?

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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:43 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Any index of those names?
Not at the moment.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 06:06 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Hoess was by his own account the grand architect of the hoax, working with Eichmann to find a method of killing the Jews, etc. Yet he was not tried at Nuremberg, he testified as a defense witness ! How freaking absurd can it get?
Saggy, you are aware that Hoess was only captured in March 1946, aren't you? The main Nuremberg trial (IMT) had already begun in October 1945, so adding a defendant at such a late stage wasn't going to happen.

The trial had actually moved into the defense case by March 1946. The prosecution cases against individual defendants happened earlier. The case against Kaltenbrunner was presented on January 2-3, 1946, two months before Hoess had been captured. The prosecution put Ohlendorf, Wisliceny, Schellenberg and a Mauthausen guard on the stand against him. Hoess was in hiding at the time.

The prosecution lawyers interrogated Hoess at the start of April 1946 and he was on the stand by mid-April 1946. Kaltenbrunner's defense attorney got played, sucka.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 06:14 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Question for the Holocaust experts here:

If one had somehow never heard of the genocide that occurred in WWII and you decided to read all known evidence for it. How long would this take? (guestimate) based on 40 hours a week devoted to such? Thanks

I would say that I've probably had 40 hours of hard Holocaust education and probably 200 hours of background (studying Nietzsche), historical fiction (Night), and discussions (my own damn family).

There is no question that one can make a career out of the study of these records and never be done.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 06:22 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Nick Terry View Post
By contrast, there are maybe 500 witnesses of direct relevance to Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Chelmno, but just counting the survivors and SS (and not including Trawnikis) there are over 1000 separate statements regarding Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka, as estimated by German historian Sara Berger in her book on these camps.
Perhaps you'd like to summarize and discuss the testimony of just one Jewish eyewitness, along with any corroborating testimony, and any physical or documentary evidence that supports the testimony.

Perhaps Y. Wiernik? E. Rosenberg? Any that appeared in subsequent trials?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 06:35 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Why is everything "degenerate" with you?
Do you remember the Tawana Brawley case?

The holohoax is that case with literally millions of persons lying. The world has never seen anything like it. It will be the end of Judaism as a viable religion.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 06:42 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Do you remember the Tawana Brawley case?
Answer my questions and points, please.

Quote:
The holohoax is that case with literally millions of persons lying.
So you keep saying, but without any justification. Why are those millions lying? How do you know they are lying?

Quote:
It will be the end of Judaism as a viable religion.
Are you saying that it should justify an Holocaust?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:13 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Nick Terry View Post
Yad Vashem says it has 150 million pages in its archive. USHMM has 100-200 million pages. Both copy from other archives then exchange microfilms and lately, digital files, so there is a lot of overlap between them. However, neither has copied *everything* that would be relevant from other archives. Reading through all of the evidence would require knowing over 20 different languages, so the hypothetical question is to some extent impossible, but I'd think that even just with German and English there would be that many pages to read through, especially since the state-level German archives have a lot of material that hasn't been fully copied to YV and USHMM yet.

The question is how many pages should one read through before enough is enough?

Obviously, some collections are more important than others. The Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial pretrial investigation ran to 88 volumes, and the contents are spelled out here - well over 1000 interrogations of SS men, bystanders and former prisoners. This is about 18,000 pages of material. The Auschwitz central construction office archive (Zentralbauleitung) runs to about 90,000 pages of contemporary Nazi documents. The most important documents on the crematoria are in a few files of several hundred pages, but important stuff is scattered in all kinds of pages. That is just two collections regarding one camp, Auschwitz, and there are literally hundreds of collections relevant to Auschwitz.

Note that archives won't include published memoirs, although many manuscripts that were later published as memoirs are in different archives. Nobody has an exact count of relevant published memoirs, but I think there are about 2000-3000. These can be short, between 100-200 pages, but some are obviously longer.

For every published memoir, there might be 20-50 unpublished accounts. The total number of witness testimonies of one form or another is certainly over 100,000, across the whole of the Holocaust. Auschwitz predominates for the camps since there were many more Jewish survivors, non-Jewish survivors, bystanders and SS men, so probably 50,000. By contrast, there are maybe 500 witnesses of direct relevance to Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Chelmno, but just counting the survivors and SS (and not including Trawnikis) there are over 1000 separate statements regarding Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka, as estimated by German historian Sara Berger in her book on these camps.

The fixation on camps obscures the fact that much of the Holocaust unfolded across the whole of Europe. Round-ups and deportations from different parts of Europe have left 10s of millions of pages of material of all kinds. The killings that happened alongside deportations in Poland, or in lieu of deportations in the Soviet Union, left a similar amount of material. Each city and town was investigated at least twice and sometimes many times.

For example, Sonderkommando 4a is well known as the organiser of the Babi Yar massacre; the West German pretrial investigation is about 40,000 pages, and this does not include actual trials. But Police Regiment South also participated, and the pretrial investigation for this unit adds another 14,000 pages. Hans at HC hasn't finished surveying this evidence, despite his index identifying 62 witnesses already, along with 44 contemporary sources and documents.

Multiply this by many other cities. The West German pretrial investigation into the Riga ghetto is about 20,000 pages long.
Thanks for that impressive reply, in short could one say that the documentation for the holocaust is so extensive that it would take up a substantial portion or an entire life time to read it all?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:14 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Do you remember the Tawana Brawley case?

The holohoax is that case with literally millions of persons lying. The world has never seen anything like it. It will be the end of Judaism as a viable religion.
ROFL - one Tawana Brawley and some supporters she convinced - with her story falling apart when a grand jury refused to pursue that case (and came to the conclusion she was lying) vs "literally millions of persons lying" and many trials reaching guilty verdicts in various aspects of the genocide - to Saggy these situations are comparable. In fact, the judicial process and the different historical research process have weeded out exaggerations, false claims, and notoriety seekers, as well as simply weaker cases.

This one is really funny, even for Saggy.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:19 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Thanks for that impressive reply, in short could one say that the documentation for the holocaust is so extensive that it would take up a substantial portion or an entire life time to read it all?
By my quick calculation it is vaster than that: if one read 200 pp/day for 50 years - doing nothing else (not taking notes, not writing conclusion, not reading secondary research, not attending conferences, going to one's favorite bar!) - he or she would have read 3.6 million pages at the end of 50 years. Nick wrote of numbers in 100 million page range. A single person could simply not read it all.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:25 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Perhaps you'd like to summarize and discuss the testimony of just one Jewish eyewitness, along with any corroborating testimony, and any physical or documentary evidence that supports the testimony.

Perhaps Y. Wiernik? E. Rosenberg? Any that appeared in subsequent trials?
Exactly what we have been doing. However, since you basically admit you won't accept any of the evidence presented to you, what's the ******* point?!

Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
...The world has never seen anything like it. It will be the end of Judaism as a viable religion.
Sounds like something right out of Mein Kampf, Hitler would be very proud of you.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:26 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
By my quick calculation it is vaster than that: if one read 200 pp/day for 50 years - doing nothing else (not taking notes, not writing conclusion, not reading secondary research, not attending conferences, going to one's favorite bar!) - he or she would have read 3.6 million pages at the end of 50 years. Nick wrote of numbers in 100 million page range. A single person could simply not read it all.
Yes I miss calculated the magnitude - I wonder how Saggy read it all then? - and researched it all too - to determine it was all wrong then?

You have to laugh at his trolling.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:33 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Yes I miss calculated the magnitude - I wonder how Saggy read it all then? - and researched it all too - to determine it was all wrong then?

You have to laugh at his trolling.
I'm impressed how he seems to "know" so much but had no idea who Odilo Globocnik was.

Brilliant research there, Saggy!
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:59 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
By my quick calculation it is vaster than that: if one read 200 pp/day for 50 years - doing nothing else (not taking notes, not writing conclusion, not reading secondary research, not attending conferences, going to one's favorite bar!) - he or she would have read 3.6 million pages at the end of 50 years. Nick wrote of numbers in 100 million page range. A single person could simply not read it all.
Not to mention the numbers of people it would take to produce it all. Along with the buildings and infrastructure. And the bodies.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:00 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Yes I miss calculated the magnitude - I wonder how Saggy read it all then? - and researched it all too - to determine it was all wrong then?

You have to laugh at his trolling.
I wonder how long it would take to read all the books and reports on UFOs.

You better start now.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:09 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
I wonder how long it would take to read all the books and reports on UFOs.

You better start now.
Piss-poor analogy, no cookie.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:10 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Dash80 View Post
Piss-poor analogy, no cookie.
Both complete hoaxes, perfect analogy.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:12 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Dash80 View Post
I'm impressed how he seems to "know" so much but had no idea who Odilo Globocnik was.

Brilliant research there, Saggy!
Oh yes Mr. Vile. As noted earlier, it appears that Saggy just repeats what other tell him to believe.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:20 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Both complete hoaxes, perfect analogy.
Nope, try again.

The holocaust is historical FACT, supported by testimony, documents and physical evidence. It is the most extensively documented genocide of them all.

That you deny it happened doesn't change the facts.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:24 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Both complete hoaxes, perfect analogy.
Answer my points, Saggy. Stop running away and pretending that you have the upper hand.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:27 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Both complete hoaxes, perfect analogy.

I think I'm done here, Saggy. I'll keep paying attention, your comments are comedy gold and help me with my list but replying to you is a waste of time. The others are doing a fine enough job torching you, they don't need my help.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:36 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Dash80 View Post
It is the most extensively documented genocide of them all.
You do realize they hid all the documents, right? So after 50 years the Soviets released the Auschwitz documents and told us they were just kidding about the 4 million killed that was proved at Nuremberg and engraved on a stone plaque at the gate.

So, here are the Auschiwtz documents, minus those lost by the Soviets ...



Total # that died, extrapolated to account for the missing data: about 120,000. More Roman Catholics than Jews. You can google the summaries, or check out the books from the NY Public library.

The docs captured by the US/Brits are still under lock and key at Bad Arolsen, accessible only to the select.
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Last edited by Saggy; 22nd September 2017 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:43 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post

The docs captured by the US/Brits are still under lock and key at Bad Arolsen, accessible only to the select.
https://www.its-arolsen.org/en/research/

Quote:
Of the documents in the ITS Archives, 85 percent have been digitized and can be seen and used for research at computer stations in our reading rooms. Visitors to the ITS receive on-site information on the structure of the database. Moreover, visitors have the opportunity to make use of the special ITS library on Nazi persecution, the survivors and the repercussions.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:52 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by threadworm View Post
"Of the documents in the ITS Archives, 85 percent have been digitized and can be seen and used for research at computer stations in our reading rooms."

If you publicly question the holohoax on the way to the ITS reading room you will be arrested and thrown in jail for up to 5 years.

The Jews recently sent a 85 year old German woman, Ursula Haverbeck, to jail for 2 years for just that thought crime ....

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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:52 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
I wonder how long it would take to read all the books and reports on UFOs.

You better start now.
Why? I don't post in UFO forums or threads, I have little interest in that subject.

The problem is you are here PRETENDING to know the material and saying with a pretended authority that you have found them to be lies....but in fact you are simply making stuff up, and denying that which you know nothing about.

Isn't that true Saggy?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:53 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by threadworm View Post
Oopps........Saggy is wrong again......hey Saggy couldn't you at least make a google search about something that simple to determine?

lol

I sometimes wonder if you are really a Jewish activist and doing this to make denier look like completely laughable schmucks.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:55 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
The docs captured by the US/Brits are still under lock and key at Bad Arolsen, accessible only to the select.
I can't decide whether you're lying or if you're really entirely ignorant of this topic.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:56 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
"Of the documents in the ITS Archives, 85 percent have been digitized and can be seen and used for research at computer stations in our reading rooms."

If you publicly question the holohoax on the way to the ITS reading room you will be arrested and thrown in jail for up to 5 years.

The Jews recently sent a 85 year old German woman to jail for 2 years for just that thought crime ....

87 year old and 8 months - can't you get ANYTHING RIGHT?

http://www.dw.com/en/nazi-grandma-ho...ail/a-19522941
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:56 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
You do realize they hid all the documents, right? So after 50 years the Soviets released the Auschwitz documents and told us they were just kidding about the 4 million killed that was proved at Nuremberg and engraved on a stone plaque at the gate.

So, here are the Auschiwtz documents, minus those lost by the Soviets ...

https://i.imgur.com/LxOWVCz.jpg

Total # that died, extrapolated to account for the missing data: about 120,000. More Roman Catholics than Jews. You can google the summaries, or check out the books from the NY Public library.

The docs captured by the US/Brits are still under lock and key at Bad Arolsen, accessible only to the select.
You've been smacked down on all that crap, numerous times and just keep coming back for more. Sucker for punishment, aren't you?


Originally Posted by threadworm View Post
See, Saggy...this is what happens when you tell lies. You get smacked down and end up with egg all over your face.
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