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Old 18th September 2018, 02:00 PM   #81
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I would venture that many did, intellectually, but cling to the tradition from a sense of community and family

Oh yes I can see this as often being the case. It is something of a common joke that one cannot get out of being a Catholic - the Worlds stickiest religion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdolFXcNAH4

Being an atheist is no impediment to continued life as a Catholic.
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Old 18th September 2018, 02:01 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Really? "I was raised with only normal/rational beliefs."

"My beliefs are normal rational, you other people have unnormal irrational beliefs."

I was raised to use logic.
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
You know, I was going to reply that none of the above really addressed the core question of the OP:


But upon reflection, I think that taken as a whole, it actually does.

Thanks.
Colored and embiggegened for you edification
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Old 18th September 2018, 02:40 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Colored and embiggegened for you edification
Yeah, you'll note I quoted it as a part of your overall answer.
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Old 18th September 2018, 02:46 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Yeah, you'll note I quoted it as a part of your overall answer.
Yeah, I thought it was totally weird you missed it
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Old 18th September 2018, 03:01 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Colored and embiggegened for you edification

Brings me back to my childhood days and playground arguments. He who shouted it out loudest and most often sort of won the argument. Now what was it we were saying about growing up?
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Old 18th September 2018, 03:22 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Catholic. Was an altar boy, went to catholic schools with priests and nuns among my relatives. Lasted until I was about 12.

All of my children were raised without religion.
This is me almost exactly, except I clung to the last vestiges of my faith until I was about 19ish. Altar boy, readings, usher . . . Other than Santa and Catholicism, I was raised to be a pretty independent thinker. Encouraged to read alot, ask questions and form my own conclusions. Mom was the Catholic; Dad was nominally Baptist but had no interest in anything but lip service to religious ideas -he was much more practical and down-to-earth about such things.
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Old 18th September 2018, 03:30 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I think my wife would understand if the kids didn't get married in the church, but her parents would be less understanding.

If I hadn't had a Jewish wedding, I'm fairly certain my parents would have ripped their garments and covered the mirrors.

Strangely, my sister was married in a small, secular ceremony at my parents' house. It was done in order to help secure her husband's visa status. Several months later, she had a huge Jewish wedding which everybody (including all my grandparents who'd been to the real wedding) just pretended was real.

ETA: Technically, it was real in that it was a real, religious ceremony. Before that, she wasn't officially married as far as Jewish authority goes. However, since there is no central jewish authority, there's nobody to keep track of any of it so it doesn't actually matter.
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Old 19th September 2018, 12:16 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Yeah, I thought it was totally weird you missed it
Why would you think I missed it?

But thank you for driving home the point I was making. Well done.
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Old 19th September 2018, 12:19 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
If I hadn't had a Jewish wedding, I'm fairly certain my parents would have ripped their garments and covered the mirrors.
That would be my wife's parents if you sub in Catholic.

My parents were just concerned that my wife's family didn't really increase our social standing locally. They really had hoped I would "marry up" in some way to improve their social standing. Such an odd view of the world I have trouble wrapping my head around it.
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Old 19th September 2018, 01:04 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I was raised to use logic.
But what were you raised to believe? Personally I wasn't raised to believe anything in particular. Mom did take us to church sometimes, but I think that she was scared of her mother. She never pushed it on us. I posted a little bit about this church's doctrine. Hell was a big deal with my grandmother, and she thought most people, including most other Christians, were going to hell.

Were you raised in a churchgoing family? Did you go to catechism classes? Were you taught any particular doctrine?
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Old 19th September 2018, 01:11 PM   #91
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My grandmother also believed that you were married in perpetuity to the first person you had sex with. No divorces, no annulments. And for a nominal Christian, very little in the way of forgiveness/redemption.
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Old 19th September 2018, 01:43 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
My grandmother also believed that you were married in perpetuity to the first person you had sex with. No divorces, no annulments. And for a nominal Christian, very little in the way of forgiveness/redemption.

Sounds like your grandmother really had it sorted.
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Old 19th September 2018, 04:32 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Sounds like your grandmother really had it sorted.
In her own mind she did.

Or maybe not ... overcompensation? I don't think my granddad, a some-time preacher, was anywhere near as hard on the world as she was, but she was definitely the dominant personality.
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Old 21st September 2018, 06:51 AM   #94
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I was raised as a Unitarian, and went to a secondary school that had us sing hymns during assembly and music lessons, and gave us all Gideon bibles. Around 13-14 I decided that religion was the stupidest thing I had thus far come across and asked to stop going to church on Sundays. I had no fuss from my liberal parents, but upset an RE teacher with one of my essays.

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Old 21st September 2018, 12:16 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Marasmusine View Post
I was raised as a Unitarian, and went to a secondary school that had us sing hymns during assembly and music lessons, and gave us all Gideon bibles. Around 13-14 I decided that religion was the stupidest thing I had thus far come across and asked to stop going to church on Sundays. I had no fuss from my liberal parents, but upset an RE teacher with one of my essays.
You upset a Unitarian-Universalist Religious Education teacher with your own written opinion? Assuming it wasn't a personal attack,

congratulations!

You caught a UU in a bit of intolerance.
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Old 21st September 2018, 10:29 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
She (and now I) live on a Congregationalist campus
I've never heard of such a thing.

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
They didn't believe in celebrating Christmas (though people did) and did not believe in instrumental music.
I've heard of the thing about music a few times before, but always been confuzzled about its origin. I don't know what in Christianity would point anybody in that direction.

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
When my brother who went to a private Episcopal school was confirmed Episcopalian, we had to keep it a secret from Grandma.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
My brother had Confirmation, but I didn't. I'm pretty sure that he never set foot in a church again.
Confirmations were a routine at the church & school I was at in childhood, but I switched to the public school district three years before that point. I think that if I, as I am now, were put in a situation where I know a public ceremony is coming up where I'm expected to "confirm" my belief in a religion in front of everybody in the church/school, then I'd simply refuse to go to the ceremony at all... but the way I was back then, I might have been more likely to go to the event and give an honest answer, just to watch people react. Sometimes I wonder if that might be part of why my parents got me out of there ahead of time.

Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
But I just had real trouble having my son come home to tell me all about this big flood and how Noah saved all the animals just so I could go, "Yeah, that never happened."
At my Lutheran private school, we were taught both that the Flood was real, in our religious classes, and the real-world science that clearly meant it couldn't be, in our science classes. I don't recall any of the kids asking about the contradiction or any of the adults bringing it up except once (when a teacher interrupted a science lesson on ice Age glaciers for a single "...although I think that could just as easily have been caused by the Flood..."). Nobody ever said a word against evolution, but I also don't recall whether evolution was given as a science lesson in that age range, either.

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
My mother was Church of Christ and her mother was hardcore so Mom decided not to ram it down her kids' throats.
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
My grandmother also believed that you were married in perpetuity to the first person you had sex with. No divorces, no annulments.
I've noticed that multiple posts in here have been about what religion has to say about sex, so this is a general response to all of them, not just this one... it really wasn't an issue for me, but it still entered my life indirectly through the first person I had sex with. Her parents had been pushing the usual predictable collection of American Protestant Christian stuff on her for her whole life, and when she went to college, she suddenly realized she was free from it all... not just sex but also other sins like skimpy clothes, staying out all night in groups including both sexes, alcohol, marijuana, even certain kinds of food, music that didn't preach, science classes that deviated from Genesis, and interacting in any way at all with evil atheists like me (and some of her professors). But sex was the one she focused on most when she told her parents, at the same time as if one had caused the other or they were part of the same bigger thing, both that she'd been having sex and that she wasn't Christian anymore. That was an interesting phone call to be in the room for, with her mother yelling loud enough to understand clearly from across the room from the phone. She kept answering theological or moralistic objections with jokes about her own new sex life like you'd find in a Night Court script if Night Court had been rated R, just to freak her mother out even more, apparently getting back at her for years of prior grievances. I don't recall every detail, but, for example, a pun on the quote I just quoted about something getting pushed down her throat would have fit right in with the theme. Her parents ended up demanding that she drop out and move back in with them, and when she refused, they came to the university to take her out by force; we watched through the window of a friend's dorm room in another building as they went in her building and came back out a while later. Later on we found out that they'd called the police in our college town to report her both "missing" and a victim of "statutory rape" (apparently defined in their minds as either sex while not married {or maybe at least engaged?} or sex without the parents' permission), thinking the police would help them bring her back under their control, but, of course, they don't do that when they find out that the "child" is 18. They just talked to her to make sure she was non-disappeared & unharmed, then recommend moving lest the parents return later for another kidnapping attempt. I never found out after we broke up, but I doubt that she ever spoke to her parents in any way at all again. What I have more doubt about is whether she would later push her "anything they said is bad is good; anything they said is good is bad" rebellion to a more self-destructive extreme, or chill it out a bit and level off.

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Old 22nd September 2018, 04:35 AM   #97
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I was raised by my mother, who was a self-employed hairdresser with a couple of employees and therefore earned much more than most people in my working-class neighborhood in Copenhagen (2300 S, for those of you who know what that means). She was a Conservative, an actual member of the party. She considered herself to be upper-class and a self-made woman, but like many of her peers she tended to forget about the inheritance from her parents.

A good Conservative couldn’t really be an atheist – God, King and Fatherland – and it would certainly have been an obstacle to the acceptance and admiration that she hoped and strived for. However, I never heard her pray and she never talked about religion. When I was about 11, I asked her (not about sex, but) about sex ed because it was mentioned on the news (mid-1960s) that it was to be introdced in schools and I had no idea what it meant. Fortunately, she didn’t try to explain it to me, but (obviously uncomfortable with the question), she gave me an article in a magazine that advised parents on how to explain sex and reproduction to their children - a very down-to-earth and sensible article.

In accordance with her ideology as a Conservative, I was taught to believe in social darwinism, that every man is the architect of his own fortune, and until I was 12 or so, I tended to believe in the ideology. However, I began to have serious doubts when we were divided in school after fifth grade in B and A classes – B for boglig, ‘bookish’ (corresponding to the German Gymnasium), and A for almen, ‘general’, i.e. in those who were ‘destined’ for higher learning and those who weren’t. Some of the kids who didn’t make B were very upset about it, and it drove a wedge in between us. Those of us in B were the winners, and the others were the losers, excluded from higher education, however much the teachers tried to persuade us that it just meant that some of us were good at one thing and others at another. It was pretty obvious to everybody that those of us who were good at school stuff were placed in B and those who weren’t in A.

At the time, I couldn’t see what the point of this enforced division was, and when I found out, I hated it even more: to split up people and distribute them to the different classes of society while pretending that it is done by nature, i.e. intelligence, and not by society:
IQ, the democratically purified racism
How intelligent is the average IQ designer?

I have hated the smug complacency of elitism ever since and I fight it whenever I see it rear its ugly head, for instance when alleged skeptics (Dawkins, for instance) seem to think that acknowledging that some ideas are wrong and others right is the same thing as elitism:
Quote:
Elitist? Proud to be elitist. Want to be flown by elite pilots, treated by elite doctors, taught by elite professors, governed by . . .
Dawkins tweet (Twitter, May 7, 2013)

It may come as a surprise to some people that Marx and Engels had nothing whatsoever against authority as such and criticized those alleged socialists who had:

Quote:
Let us take another example — the railway. Here too the co-operation of an infinite number of individuals is absolutely necessary, and this co-operation must be practised during precisely fixed hours so that no accidents may happen. Here, too, the first condition of the job is a dominant will that settles all subordinate questions, whether this will is represented by a single delegate or a committee charged with the execution of the resolutions of the majority of persona interested. In either case there is a very pronounced authority. Moreover, what would happen to the first train dispatched if the authority of the railway employees over the Hon. passengers were abolished?
But the necessity of authority, and of imperious authority at that, will nowhere be found more evident than on board a ship on the high seas. There, in time of danger, the lives of all depend on the instantaneous and absolute obedience of all to the will of one.
It would be stupid to have a vote in a situation like that!

So would Marx and Engels agree with Dawkins? Well, they definitely wouldn’t have argued against the necessity of pilots (if they could have imagined that), medical doctors and professors being qualified. But what made Marx and Engels actually bright (and not just self-proclaimed 'brights' like Dawkins) is the fact that they were able to distinguish between being qualified and being privileged. The elitist entitlement of guys like Dawkins and Pinker is much too big for them to ever grasp that idea!

And every skeptic should always be aware that elitism is the ideology of a society that excludes a large number of people from the kind of education that it takes to know the difference between sense and nonsense, the kind of education that makes it obvious what the difference is between science and religion, and the kind of education that makes it obvious that a member of the elite like Donald Trump is a self-aggrandizing moron.

"Want to be (...) governed by . . ."

Yeah, right ...
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 22nd September 2018, 04:48 AM   #98
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Seems strange to say it, but I wasn't raised to believe anything.

I mean, I was raised with stuff like tell the truth, value family and whatnot. But when it comes to particular political, social or similar beliefs, my folks never really addressed them to me. I was never told that god exists, or that he doesn't. Never told that ghosts were real, or that they weren't. Stuff like that was just never a topic of importance for us, I was pretty much left to work out what I thought was true by myself.
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Old 22nd September 2018, 09:38 AM   #99
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Why strange?!
Not all parents are (or were) jerks!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd September 2018, 07:33 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Why strange?!
Not all parents are (or were) jerks!

I'd hardly say my parents were jerks to raise me within our religion. It was an important source for our social lives. It caused all sorts of families to come together regularly to share in rituals - and shared experiences are the basis of friendships. It caused cohesion within the family, as well. I regularly saw my cousins for Passover and Rosh Hashanah. Now that I live without religion, I haven't seen them in something like two years.

They were kind of jerks about me studying for my Bar Mitzvah, but I'm pretty sure that no 12 year-old enjoys homework.
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Old 23rd September 2018, 08:19 AM   #101
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As a 12-year-old I hated the kind of homework where I couldn't see the point of it. The memorization of religious hymns, for instance. Fortunately, that had almost disappeared in the 1960s.
In Denmark, families still meet for Christmas, Easter or Whitsun, but the religious content of these holidays has disappeared almost entirely.
The complete guide to Easter in Denmark (The Local, Mar. 23, 2016)
I see no reason why meeting family or friends should depend on religion.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd September 2018, 12:01 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
I've never heard of such a thing.
It's a "campus of care" run by the United Church of Christ, which is pretty tolerant. Their church banner says, "One God, many faiths."

Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
I've heard of the thing about music a few times before, but always been confuzzled about its origin. I don't know what in Christianity would point anybody in that direction.
They justified it with biblical evidence ... it had something to do with "lift your voice to the Lord."

Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
I've heard of the thing about music a few times Confirmations were a routine at the church & school I was at in childhood, but I switched to the public school district three years before that point.
I think my brother actively wanted to be Episcopalian. It was broader-minded that our mother's church, but by age 12 or so I did not believe anything firmly enough to be comfortable with baptism.

I don't remember ever being told that the bible was literal truth. The Church of Christ didn't put much emphasis on Old Testament stories.

Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
I've noticed that multiple posts in here have been about what religion has to say about sex,
Yep, sex was the big thing. My grandmother was actually pretty tolerant about my boyfriend - I think she felt we were basically "married." He wasn't my first, though I doubt if she knew that. I too was fairly open with my parents, to the point where it might have been seen as rebellion, but not confrontational ... I didn't think I was rebelling ... it's just who I was.
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Old 29th September 2018, 03:05 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You know how in Islamic architecture there is always a deliberate fault somewhere in the building (only allah is perfect).........?
That explains a lot..Had I known that before I would've probably stayed a Muslim.
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Old 29th September 2018, 03:46 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You know how in Islamic architecture there is always a deliberate fault somewhere in the building (only allah is perfect).........?
Interesting:

Quote:
Persian flaw
The Persians were the people and culture of ancient Persia on Earth. They originated the concept of the Persian Flaw.
The meaning of Persian Flaw comes from a long time ago. The Persian tribe members worked together to weave carpets that would tell their story of trials and tribulations. Just one princely Persian carpet would take years to complete with help of many tribe members to achieve a perfect Persian carpet. The Persians believed only God or a higher power was perfect in all aspects and to show this carpet makers would intentionally place flaws or mistakes in the carpet.
If only the Persians were better educated they could have been saved the trouble. Nothing is perfect or exact in the material world.

"Oh that is perfect, it is an exact fit" we hear the lay person exclaim, whereas anyone from scientific or engineering background knows this to be false. Things may be made to an extremely fine tolerance but that is all.

French scientists when measuring the circumference of our planet, (by measuring the length of one degree along a meridian arc), made the mistake of assuming the Earth was a sphere, so they were out by a smidgeon.

The Earth is not a perfect sphere, our orbit around the sun is not a perfect circle, and so on. Nothing God made, (for those who believe in Him), is perfect either. It would be impressive if just one thing was.
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Old 29th September 2018, 04:24 PM   #105
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Do we know how humans came up with the concept of perfect geometrical shapes?
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Old 30th September 2018, 01:37 PM   #106
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
"Oh that is perfect, it is an exact fit" we hear the lay person exclaim, whereas anyone from scientific or engineering background knows this to be false. Things may be made to an extremely fine tolerance but that is all.
As a teenager I got into quite an argument with the guide at an Indian mound park. He insisted the spacing between the interior support beams were "exactly five meters". I maintained that would have to be a hell of an unlikely coincidence since nobody on Earth was using the meter in 1000 AD, and certainly not in North America.
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Old 30th September 2018, 08:29 PM   #107
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by winter salt View Post
Do we know how humans came up with the concept of perfect geometrical shapes?
Guy by the name of Euclid.
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