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Old 15th September 2018, 07:37 AM   #1
Grizzly Adams
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Cross-sex strip searches and "gender fluidity"

Muslim Male Inmate Objects to Strip Search by Apparently Anatomically Female Transgender Guard

Quote:
According to the plaintiff, when it was his turn to be strip searched, defendant Buhle, a female correctional officer, approached him and ordered him to strip. The plaintiff states that he asked defendant Buhle how she was able to do that and she responded, "I'm a dude." The plaintiff says he looked at the other correctional officers, "to see if this was a prank," but that they avoided eye contact with him. He alleges that at this point, he "started to panic because he knew that Officer Buhle was a female based on her female features (breasts, face, voice and demeanor) and that exposing his nakedness to her would be in violation of his Islamic beliefs ….

The plaintiff indicates that "[i]t was later brought to [his] attention that Officer Buhle is a female claiming to be a male and therefore is afforded all of the duties that the male officers perform without discrimination."

The plaintiff alleges that in anticipation of another encounter with defendant Buhle, he wrote defendants [GBCI Security Director John Kind and GBCI Warden Scott Eckstein] and requested an "[e]xemption from exposing my nakedness to the opposite sex ... because it is against Islam." On July 12, 2016, defendant Eckstein allegedly denied the plaintiff's request: "I have reviewed your correspondence and have also discussed your concerns with our Security Director. I have reviewed the situation and the officer in question is a male and is qualified to complete these duties. If in the future you are directed to submit to a strip search by this individual or any other male staff member it is my expectation that you will comply."
The Muslim part is apparently included because the lawsuit is based on the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act, but I find it pretty much irrelevant. The lawsuit could have been easily brought under the auspices of the Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003 because the conduct appears to violate 28 CFR 115.15 (regulations implementing the Act) on its face. So, while this particular lawsuit is based on the inmate's religion, I would like this conversation to ignore it because there are other (more convincing, in my opinion) grounds for the lawsuit.

Thoughts? Should prison inmates be forced to take their clothes off in front of someone who is the opposite sex simply because they claim to "identify" with the other sex? What about people who have only been arrested and not convicted? Should a female arrestee be forced to take off her clothes at the county jail in front of a male officer who says, gruffly, "don't worry, I identify as a woman"?
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Old 15th September 2018, 08:22 AM   #2
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I hope the plaintiff wins his claim. A prison officer should have to do a little more than declare they're a new gender before prisoners are forced to strip off in front of them.
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Old 15th September 2018, 08:22 AM   #3
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Quote:
Thoughts? Should prison inmates be forced to take their clothes off in front of someone who is the opposite sex simply because they claim to "identify" with the other sex? What about people who have only been arrested and not convicted? Should a female arrestee be forced to take off her clothes at the county jail in front of a male officer who says, gruffly, "don't worry, I identify as a woman"?
Yep.

As we've learned, those who identify as another gender are, in fact, that gender.

If a male-appearing officer orders a female-appearing inmate to strip, s/he must strip.

If s/he claims s/he raped them, we know s/he's lying because we all know two women can't possibly rape each other.

If a child should be borne of the union, relax -everything is rainbows.
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Old 15th September 2018, 08:33 AM   #4
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From the POV of the inmate's rights, it doesn't matter what the other officer identifies as. It matters what they are objectively identified as. Does Islam acknowledge gender choice? I don't think it does. The inmates rights should prevail.

Then again, a lot of people would call strip searches a form of sexusl assault, which many would also object to. How about if the inmates are given their choice of officers of varying genders to perform the search? If it is not sexual in nature, as officers claim, the inmate choosing for their own sense of integrity should be no issue.
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Old 15th September 2018, 08:55 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
From the POV of the inmate's rights, it doesn't matter what the other officer identifies as. It matters what they are objectively identified as. Does Islam acknowledge gender choice? I don't think it does. The inmates rights should prevail.

Then again, a lot of people would call strip searches a form of sexusl assault, which many would also object to. How about if the inmates are given their choice of officers of varying genders to perform the search? If it is not sexual in nature, as officers claim, the inmate choosing for their own sense of integrity should be no issue.
I am with you in terms of the highlight. If an inmate objects to one particular guard doing something as invasive as a strip search I believe that the prison system should reasonably try to accommodate their request for another correction officer to do it. It should be no big deal. But I do not think it matters what the guard "objectively identified as." What is "objective" - their genitals now? Their genitals when they were born? Their karyotype? What if the guard identified as and was male by all biological criteria, but was gay and unprofessional enough to get off sexually from strip searching other males? Would that be acceptable? I'

But I also think religion should not be involved when judging the legitimacy of the request. I do not like the idea that some inmates can play a religion card that allows them, but not others, a particular right. The right should be available to all.

For me it comes down to your last sentence, with which I fully agree: "The inmate choosing for their own sense of integrity should be no issue."
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Old 15th September 2018, 09:12 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I am with you in terms of the highlight. If an inmate objects to one particular guard doing something as invasive as a strip search I believe that the prison system should reasonably try to accommodate their request for another correction officer to do it. It should be no big deal. But I do not think it matters what the guard "objectively identified as." What is "objective" - their genitals now? Their genitals when they were born? Their karyotype? What if the guard identified as and was male by all biological criteria, but was gay and unprofessional enough to get off sexually from strip searching other males? Would that be acceptable? I'

But I also think religion should not be involved when judging the legitimacy of the request. I do not like the idea that some inmates can play a religion card that allows them, but not others, a particular right. The right should be available to all.

For me it comes down to your last sentence, with which I fully agree: "The inmate choosing for their own sense of integrity should be no issue."
I would think a religious objection should be legitimate, with the caveat of demonstrating sincere conviction, which is a tricky one to prove. There is room for abuse under any conceivable system, so I would think the inmates choice should be given weight against perceived abuses. Obviously, the problem arises with male inmates disproportionally demanding female officers, so its kind of a no-win all around in terms of abuse-proof procedure.

Eta: victimizing institutionalized people should be given higher consideration on balance
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Last edited by Thermal; 15th September 2018 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 15th September 2018, 09:54 AM   #7
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Wouldn't strip searches fall under sodomy? So Christians are eligible for protection too.
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Old 15th September 2018, 09:58 AM   #8
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hmm, another thought- Felons lose some rights. Should they lose the right to un-infringed religious expression too?

"Welcome to prison. No Burkas, no Kosher anything. No overt symbols of religion- no crucifixes, yarmulkes, voo-doo dolls, ......"
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Old 15th September 2018, 10:06 AM   #9
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what if all the male inmates decide to identify as female?
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Old 15th September 2018, 10:17 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
what if all the male inmates decide to identify as female?
Would their cycles synchronize?
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Old 15th September 2018, 11:07 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I would think a religious objection should be legitimate, with the caveat of demonstrating sincere conviction, which is a tricky one to prove. There is room for abuse under any conceivable system, so I would think the inmates choice should be given weight against perceived abuses. Obviously, the problem arises with male inmates disproportionally demanding female officers, so its kind of a no-win all around in terms of abuse-proof procedure.

Eta: victimizing institutionalized people should be given higher consideration on balance
I still disagree with the concept of elevating a religious-based objective (or an objection that is claimed to be religious based) to a level above that of any other sincere conviction. If a convict is sincerely and deeply repulsed by a particular action by the prison, no matter if it is religious based or not, I believe the prison should try to determine if a easy, reasonable accommodation can be made. A very shy atheist prisoner freaked out by the notion of having a strip search by the opposite gender has as legitimate an objection as does a religion prisoner. And most religions accept that something done against the will of the believer does not result in damnation: the "sin" sticks to the heathen making the believer violate their faith.

Ironically given the OP, male prisoners disproportionally requesting they be strip searched by female officers might indeed become a problem. But what of male prisoners, gay or situationally pan-sexual, who currently may find some odd thrills from strip searches even when given by male officers? But in a sense - what the hell, why not if it doesn't bother the officers. Strip-searches are not particularly erotic situations, although the bar for "erotic" is undoubtably low in prison. Undoubtably the prisoner would not be allowed to indulge in the situation.

Perhaps more broadly, just randomize it. Many people, including me, go to both female and male doctors and it is no big deal. Being seen naked or even probed by someone of the opposite gender hasn't killed any one.
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Old 16th September 2018, 04:34 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
Muslim Male Inmate Objects to Strip Search by Apparently Anatomically Female Transgender Guard


The Muslim part is apparently included because the lawsuit is based on the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act, but I find it pretty much irrelevant. The lawsuit could have been easily brought under the auspices of the Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003 because the conduct appears to violate 28 CFR 115.15 (regulations implementing the Act) on its face. So, while this particular lawsuit is based on the inmate's religion, I would like this conversation to ignore it because there are other (more convincing, in my opinion) grounds for the lawsuit.

Thoughts? Should prison inmates be forced to take their clothes off in front of someone who is the opposite sex simply because they claim to "identify" with the other sex? What about people who have only been arrested and not convicted? Should a female arrestee be forced to take off her clothes at the county jail in front of a male officer who says, gruffly, "don't worry, I identify as a woman"?
What a prisoner's imaginary friend tells him is right and wrong shouldn't be given consideration in prison. Attempts should be made to accommodate basic tenants of Christianity but any other religions should be ignored. You're in prison. Sorry but you don't get to do everything you used to do before you broke the law.

But in this particular instance, the prisoner should've told the heshe officer that he identifies as a woman so, no, he is not going to disrobe in front a man.
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Old 16th September 2018, 04:42 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
What a prisoner's imaginary friend tells him is right and wrong shouldn't be given consideration in prison. Attempts should be made to accommodate basic tenants of Christianity but any other religions should be ignored. You're in prison. Sorry but you don't get to do everything you used to do before you broke the law.

But in this particular instance, the prisoner should've told the heshe officer that he identifies as a woman so, no, he is not going to disrobe in front a man.
Except then instead of one woman identifying as a bloke, he would have 2 or 3 women brought in (depending on how many people do a strip search)
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Old 16th September 2018, 04:52 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
hmm, another thought- Felons lose some rights. Should they lose the right to un-infringed religious expression too?

"Welcome to prison. No Burkas, no Kosher anything. No overt symbols of religion- no crucifixes, yarmulkes, voo-doo dolls, ......"
Courts have already ruled on this. I don't remember the exact wording of the ruling. The gist of it was that they do indeed lose the right to un-infringed religious expression, but prison officials can't be arbitrary about it. If there is a prison rule to which prisoners object on religious grounds, the prison can say that's just too darned bad for you, but we do this for security reasons, so you'll just have to take it up with God on your own time. However, if there is no particular reason for prison officials to demand a particular rule, but the rule is objectionable on religious grounds, the prisoner can't be forced to follow the rule.

The case in question involved a Muslim who wanted to keep a beard, but the prison had a no facial hair policy. I don't remember the specifics, but when it was all said and done, the guy got to have some facial hair.


It's really the same as any other case, prison or no prison. If the government wants to impinge on someone's religious freedom, they must demonstrate that they have a compelling interest in doing so. When it comes to prisoners, it's a lot easier to show a compelling interest in restricting their behavior.
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Old 16th September 2018, 06:02 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
I have never been literally strip searched but I've been patted down in my underwear. Some of the patters were probably lesbians, so I'm not sure I'd mind being patted down by a guy. But, thinking about it, yeah, it would make me a bit uncomfortable.

I don't remember, but there might have been 2 officers in the room anyway ... it would make sense. I've had a doctor call in an observer while he did a Pap smear.

In this case they should have called in a non-trans man. IMO.

I haven't read the whole thread, maybe these points have already been brought up. But it's peripherally related to the TERF thing. Certain lesbians did not like being called bigoted if they categorically refused to have sex with someone with a penis. I don't know how big of a deal that actually is, because who they sleep with is still their own choice, of course, but they felt the need to make a statement.
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Old 17th September 2018, 07:54 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
What a prisoner's imaginary friend tells him is right and wrong shouldn't be given consideration in prison. Attempts should be made to accommodate basic tenants of Christianity but any other religions should be ignored. You're in prison. Sorry but you don't get to do everything you used to do before you broke the law.

But in this particular instance, the prisoner should've told the heshe officer that he identifies as a woman so, no, he is not going to disrobe in front a man.
Why and Why?

What justification do you have for one religion and no others?
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Old 24th September 2018, 12:29 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Would their cycles synchronize?
I don't know, I don't think they're allowed bikes in prison

On a serious note, you weren't being serious yeah?

I'm not from the US, so I can't really tell whether what you said would actually be a serious consideration or not in US prisons?

Last edited by p0lka; 24th September 2018 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 24th September 2018, 01:40 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
I hope the plaintiff wins his claim. A prison officer should have to do a little more than declare they're a new gender before prisoners are forced to strip off in front of them.
Like what?
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Old 24th September 2018, 06:33 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I don't know, I don't think they're allowed bikes in prison

On a serious note, you weren't being serious yeah?

I'm not from the US, so I can't really tell whether what you said would actually be a serious consideration or not in US prisons?
Not serious. Was alluding to the fact that no matter what a person identifies as, there will be certain physical realities that are undeniable. In the OP, it was that the officer was a physical woman, regardless of what she claimed. Male inmates would face a similar conundrum in capriciously declaring themselves to be women.
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Old 25th September 2018, 03:48 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Like what?
Like actually be the gender declared. I have to observe addicts urinating. If I say I'm female can I now observe the women too?
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Old 25th September 2018, 05:44 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
From the POV of the inmate's rights, it doesn't matter what the other officer identifies as. It matters what they are objectively identified as...
That's probably the fair approach. The issue isn't just what the officer identifies as, it's what the inmate identifies the officer as.

Unless you intend to take away the inmates right only to be strip searched by an officer of the same sex, then of course it matters that they identify the officer as being of that same sex.
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Old 30th September 2018, 08:00 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
I hope the plaintiff wins his claim. A prison officer should have to do a little more than declare they're a new gender before prisoners are forced to strip off in front of them.
He didn't declare that he's a new gender, he declared that he was the sex he was born with. He was born with external genitalia, therefore he's male.

Isn't that exactly what people want? Wasn't that what the whole public toilet debacle was all about? That people like him aren't female at all, they're born male and therefore will always be male, should be treated like a male and should go to the men's toilet.

Right?
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Old 30th September 2018, 08:06 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
what if all the male inmates decide to identify as female?
What has that got to do with this incident, where a person who was born male declares himself to be male?

Should he not have declared himself a male, in your opinion? Why so?
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Old 2nd October 2018, 04:59 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
What has that got to do with this incident, where a person who was born male declares himself to be male?

Should he not have declared himself a male, in your opinion? Why so?
You seem to be misunderstanding should and could.

Work on that.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 06:48 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
He didn't declare that he's a new gender, he declared that he was the sex he was born with. He was born with external genitalia, therefore he's male.

Isn't that exactly what people want? Wasn't that what the whole public toilet debacle was all about? That people like him aren't female at all, they're born male and therefore will always be male, should be treated like a male and should go to the men's toilet.

Right?
I thought, from the OP, this case concerned an "apparently physiologically female" person. Perhaps it does, in which case we may be considering a person who is "apparently physiologically female" except for an organ which is most certainly not going to be made apparent to the prisoner and which convinces the person's employer that they are male.

The case isn't really about what any person considers their own sex to be. It's about whether a prisoner's right not be intimately searched by a guard of the opposite sex includes a reasonable expectation that the prisoner can be satisfied that this rule is being followed.

Imagine, for example, a different case where prisoners of one sex are strip searched by an officer of the same sex but who is deliberately disguised as the opposite sex, as a 'prank' to humiliate and distress them. If that happened, was a female prisoner's right not to be searched by a man, or vice versa, breached or not?
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Old 2nd October 2018, 02:59 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
From the POV of the inmate's rights, it doesn't matter what the other officer identifies as. It matters what they are objectively identified as. Does Islam acknowledge gender choice? I don't think it does. The inmates rights should prevail.

Then again, a lot of people would call strip searches a form of sexusl assault, which many would also object to. How about if the inmates are given their choice of officers of varying genders to perform the search? If it is not sexual in nature, as officers claim, the inmate choosing for their own sense of integrity should be no issue.
Interestingly Iran has one of the highest rates of transgender surgery in the world. transgenderism is recognised as 'real', whilst homosexuality is a crime. Homosexuals are 'encouraged' to be trans. Trans is Islamic; Homosexuality not.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 04:59 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Interestingly Iran has one of the highest rates of transgender surgery in the world. transgenderism is recognised as 'real', whilst homosexuality is a crime. Homosexuals are 'encouraged' to be trans. Trans is Islamic; Homosexuality not.
Where have all Muslims agreed on this? Could you point me to documentation of this event? Or do I have to explain that different sects of religion believe different things, and even within the same splinter different people have different views.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 05:06 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Where have all Muslims agreed on this … .
I think Planigale's first sentence made it pretty clear that what followed described the views of the Iranian regime.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 05:09 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
He didn't declare that he's a new gender, he declared that he was the sex he was born with. He was born with external genitalia, therefore he's male.

Isn't that exactly what people want? Wasn't that what the whole public toilet debacle was all about? That people like him aren't female at all, they're born male and therefore will always be male, should be treated like a male and should go to the men's toilet.

Right?
You know, if I were a more cynical person, I'd say that rules like this are just meant to exclude trans people, period.
They can't be treated as the gender they present as because they weren't born that way, and they can't be treated as the gender corresponding with their birth sex, because they look different.
They're just perverts and should disappear and leave normal folks alone

Good thing I'm not cynical.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 05:23 AM   #30
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If I was cynical, I'd guess there would be complaints about the principle, but maybe not so eager a campaign by trans people to win the right to be given the horrible job of inspecting prisoners to see if they shoved contraband up themselves.

Seriously though, it's a problem of conflicting rights, and isn't one-sided.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 05:28 AM   #31
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The case isn't one sided, I agree.

And as long as religious objections are held as valid, I'd say the prisoner in question is justified in asking for a different guard to perform the search.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 05:42 AM   #32
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Does the objection need to be on religious grounds? I presume the right not to be searched by the opposite sex is not grounded on any specific reason for objecting.
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