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Old 7th November 2018, 03:00 AM   #1
uke2se
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Right wing terrorism in Europe as well

Not surprisingly, the rise of right wing terrorism is happening in Europe as well as the US.

In France yesterday, six people were arrested for planning an attack on President Macron. That's on top of the more than 20 arrests of other right wing terrorists throughout the summer and autumn in several different plots designed to attack Muslims, places of worship and political figures.

It's quite clear that the threat of terrorism is now primarily coming from the extreme right, fueled by extremist populist movements in many Western nations. The question is, when will enough be enough, and what should be done?
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Old 7th November 2018, 03:10 AM   #2
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Change is slow, but it is good to have examples to point to once you have an administration willing to do the right thing.

Unfortunately, the US is utterly schizophrenic when it comes to tackling foreign vs. domestic terrorism.
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Old 7th November 2018, 03:40 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Not surprisingly, the rise of right wing terrorism is happening in Europe as well as the US.

In France yesterday, six people were arrested for planning an attack on President Macron. That's on top of the more than 20 arrests of other right wing terrorists throughout the summer and autumn in several different plots designed to attack Muslims, places of worship and political figures.

It's quite clear that the threat of terrorism is now primarily coming from the extreme right, fueled by extremist populist movements in many Western nations. The question is, when will enough be enough, and what should be done?
What's to be done? Stop making up nonsense like this for a starter.

https://www.europol.europa.eu/activi...018-tesat-2018

Quote:
In 2017 the vast majority of verdicts
(352) in the Member States concerned
jihadist terrorism
confirming a trend
that started in 2015
Quote:
In recent years there has been an increase in the
frequency of jihadist attacks, but a decrease in the
sophistication of their preparation and execution.
Jihadist attacks, however, cause more deaths and
casualties than any other terrorist attacks
.
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Old 7th November 2018, 03:56 AM   #4
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"on the rise" isn't the same as "a majority of".

Odd that for some, the distinction needs to be made.
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Old 7th November 2018, 04:02 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
"on the rise" isn't the same as "a majority of".

Odd that for some, the distinction needs to be made.
Odd that for some, three sentences are too much to parse.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's quite clear that the threat of terrorism is now primarily coming from the extreme right
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Old 7th November 2018, 04:12 AM   #6
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My interpretation is that compared to the massive resources pumped into fighting violent Islam, radical-right violence is extremely understaffed and underfunded.
At this point, both Europe and the US can do more for fighting terrorism by putting more resources into right-wing terror than by adding to the vast resources for combating Islamic terrorism.
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Old 7th November 2018, 04:17 AM   #7
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Can't we just have the jihadists and skinheads duke it out, Thunderdome style?
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Old 7th November 2018, 04:35 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
My interpretation is that compared to the massive resources pumped into fighting violent Islam, radical-right violence is extremely understaffed and underfunded.
That says a lot about the threat. The fact that Islamic terrorism is still vastly over-represented in terms of attack impact despite the huge resources levelled against it tells us a lot about the overall problem in terms of scale. Factor into this the pool of potential jihadis vs the pool of potential Nazis and you're talking about a staggering over-representation of the Islamic threat in Europe. This is true even in the US, where 51% of the fatalities* from terrorist attacks in the past 15 years are from Islamic terrorism... and Muslims only comprise 2% of the population.

* With the recent synagogue attack that figure is more like 49%, but you get the idea. If we're going to quibble we could extend the range a few years and include 9/11.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
At this point, both Europe and the US can do more for fighting terrorism by putting more resources into right-wing terror than by adding to the vast resources for combating Islamic terrorism.
Or do both. All terrorism is equally despicable and needs to be prevented, but let's not kid ourselves about where the overriding threat is coming from.
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Old 7th November 2018, 05:06 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Can't we just have the jihadists and skinheads duke it out, Thunderdome style?
They are are more likely to come out officially as allies. The one never had as good a friend as the other after all.
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Old 7th November 2018, 01:50 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
What's to be done? Stop making up nonsense like this for a starter.

https://www.europol.europa.eu/activi...018-tesat-2018
AFAIK terrorist attacks are typically perpetrated by the most conservative Muslims. Just because they don't get along well with Christian/Jewish ultra-conservatives doesn't mean they are not conservatives themselves.
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Old 7th November 2018, 01:57 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Not surprisingly, the rise of right wing terrorism is happening in Europe as well as the US.

In France yesterday, six people were arrested for planning an attack on President Macron.
But this is Europe we're talking about, so...
All have connections to the far-right
... translates to "moderate left" in American terms.
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Old 7th November 2018, 02:01 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Can't we just have the jihadists and skinheads duke it out, Thunderdome style?
Ironically, Nazis and Islamists have made common cause in the past.
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Old 7th November 2018, 02:41 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
AFAIK terrorist attacks are typically perpetrated by the most conservative Muslims. Just because they don't get along well with Christian/Jewish ultra-conservatives doesn't mean they are not conservatives themselves.
Indeed, Islamists are to the right of actual Nazis, but I think we all know who's being referred to in the OP.
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Old 7th November 2018, 04:35 PM   #14
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The Macron plotters appear to have been pretty incompetent.
They should have hired The Jackle to the the job....
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Old 8th November 2018, 08:20 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Indeed, Islamists are to the right of actual Nazis, but I think we all know who's being referred to in the OP.
Pointing to a different set of right-wing terrorists doesnít change anything wrt to the OP. Even as whataboutism it fails. Itís akin to someone pointing out a problem with something Mike Pence is doing and someone else trying to deflect by say ďyeah but Trump is wrose!Ē
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Old 8th November 2018, 08:25 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Can't we just have the jihadists and skinheads duke it out, Thunderdome style?
In a closet. And give them all hand grenades.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:04 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Pointing to a different set of right-wing terrorists doesn’t change anything wrt to the OP. Even as whataboutism it fails. It’s akin to someone pointing out a problem with something Mike Pence is doing and someone else trying to deflect by say “yeah but Trump is wrose!”
Pointing out that the assertion of the OP, that "it's quite clear that the threat of terrorism is now primarily coming from the extreme right", is false, is directly addressing the point.

Posting statistics and a link to a definitive document on the matter is directly addressing the point.

Speaking further to that is also directly addressing the point.

Posting irrelevant crap about Mike Pence is not addressing the point, directly or otherwise.

HTH.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:37 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
That says a lot about the threat. The fact that Islamic terrorism is still vastly over-represented in terms of attack impact despite the huge resources levelled against it tells us a lot about the overall problem in terms of scale. Factor into this the pool of potential jihadis vs the pool of potential Nazis and you're talking about a staggering over-representation of the Islamic threat in Europe. This is true even in the US, where 51% of the fatalities* from terrorist attacks in the past 15 years are from Islamic terrorism... and Muslims only comprise 2% of the population.

* With the recent synagogue attack that figure is more like 49%, but you get the idea. If we're going to quibble we could extend the range a few years and include 9/11.



Or do both. All terrorism is equally despicable and needs to be prevented, but let's not kid ourselves about where the overriding threat is coming from.
Yeah... terrorist attack. The definition of which is rather vague. Meanwhile ideologically motivated murders in the USA have been mainly right wing in the last decade.



Source is the Anti-defamation league and they don't exactly take Islamic violence lightly.

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Old 8th November 2018, 03:49 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Yeah... terrorist attack. The definition of which is rather vague. Meanwhile ideologically motivated murders in the USA have been mainly right wing in the last decade.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...murders_US.png

Source is the Anti-defamation league and they don't exactly take Islamic violence lightly.
OK, but that's something completely different.

First, the topic is terrorism. It might be tricky to define (no trickier than 'ideologically motivated murder') but luckily we have experts to do that for us. All we need to do is read the stats, as in the link I posted.

Second, the topic is terrorism in Europe. In the US they face different challenges, I'm aware of that. Like in Pakistan, different challenges. In China, different challenges. The US and Europe are cultural, ideological and social poles apart.

Third, you state your graph shows 'ideologically motivated murders'. It does not. (EDIT: apologies, I misread your post, you didn't state this, but I'll leave this in) By its title we can see is shows 'ideologically motivated murder incidents'. That is very different and your conclusion does not follow from that graph. You're correct, though - there are more far right killings in the US - but if you want to compare the ideological threat of Islam vs the ideological threat of the far right (as opposed to your risk from either) you need to consider the pool of potential attackers in each. And that's when you see how massively over-represented Islam is in this area, even in the US.
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Old 8th November 2018, 04:59 PM   #20
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I dont' see how anybody could debate that right wing violence has, over the past few years, taken over from Islamist violence as the most dangerous in the US.
Of course this could change. In Europe in the 70's and early 80's Left wing violence of the Baader Meinhoff/Red Brigade variety was easily the most dangerous.
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Old 9th November 2018, 02:27 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I dont' see how anybody could debate that right wing violence has, over the past few years, taken over from Islamist violence as the most dangerous in the US.
Nobody is doing that, at least not here, in a thread about Europe. In fact, people don't seem to be doing much of anything here since I posted the facts.

You could start a thread about terrorism in the US and I'll be happy to admit right wing terrorism in the US is a serious and growing problem.

Just how serious and how dangerous as compared with Islamic terrorism I touched on here, showing that the evidence for it being the primary threat in the US is equivocal to say the least.

That was a thread killer too.

Originally Posted by baron View Post
[between 2008 and 2016 in the US] ...32% of the terror attacks and 51% of the deaths were by Muslims, who comprise 1% of the population. Now whilst the numbers stand on their own, that last one bears stressing. ONE PERCENT of the population.
As I say, that would require a new thread.
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Old 9th November 2018, 09:02 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
You're correct, though - there are more far right killings in the US - but if you want to compare the ideological threat of Islam vs the ideological threat of the far right (as opposed to your risk from either) you need to consider the pool of potential attackers in each. And that's when you see how massively over-represented Islam is in this area, even in the US.
Presumably you have some statistical backing to that claim?
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Old 9th November 2018, 09:04 AM   #23
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[Forget it - can't be bothered]
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Old 9th November 2018, 09:18 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Presumably you have some statistical backing to that claim?
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
[Forget it - can't be bothered]
Can't be bothered to what? Click the link that I provided?
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Old 9th November 2018, 09:24 AM   #25
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The ideological threat of the extreme right is clearly much larger as they pose an actual threat to democracy. Islamism doesn't, at least in the West.

I guess us non-wingnuts have the advantage to be able to despise both extremist right wing terror and extremist Islamist terror. Guess that's a bit unfair in discussions like this.
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Old 9th November 2018, 09:33 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The ideological threat of the extreme right is clearly much larger as they pose an actual threat to democracy. Islamism doesn't, at least in the West.
"Right wing terrorism in Europe" poses a threat to democracy? Can we see some evidence of that?

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I guess us non-wingnuts have the advantage to be able to despise both extremist right wing terror and extremist Islamist terror. Guess that's a bit unfair in discussions like this.
Well, it's now been said, so fair play to you for that.

No, wait, it wasn't you who said it! It was me!

Originally Posted by baron View Post
All terrorism is equally despicable and needs to be prevented
So thanks for the personal insult and I hope the facts haven't offended you too much.
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Old 9th November 2018, 09:36 AM   #27
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Right-wing groups are very effective in gaining footholds in local government and law enforcement - unlike Islamic extremists.

So yeah, systemically, Right-Wing terror is far more dangerous.
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Old 9th November 2018, 09:52 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Right-wing groups are very effective in gaining footholds in local government and law enforcement - unlike Islamic extremists.

So yeah, systemically, Right-Wing terror is far more dangerous.
Which influential right wing political parties in Europe have a terrorist wing?
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Old 9th November 2018, 10:15 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
OK, but that's something completely different.

First, the topic is terrorism. It might be tricky to define (no trickier than 'ideologically motivated murder') but luckily we have experts to do that for us. All we need to do is read the stats, as in the link I posted.

Second, the topic is terrorism in Europe. In the US they face different challenges, I'm aware of that. Like in Pakistan, different challenges. In China, different challenges. The US and Europe are cultural, ideological and social poles apart.

Third, you state your graph shows 'ideologically motivated murders'. It does not. (EDIT: apologies, I misread your post, you didn't state this, but I'll leave this in) By its title we can see is shows 'ideologically motivated murder incidents'. That is very different and your conclusion does not follow from that graph. You're correct, though - there are more far right killings in the US - but if you want to compare the ideological threat of Islam vs the ideological threat of the far right (as opposed to your risk from either) you need to consider the pool of potential attackers in each. And that's when you see how massively over-represented Islam is in this area, even in the US.
First: actually the ADL says terrorist. Whatever, whether people go about killing others to effect political change through fear or just because they hate them isn't too big of a concern IMO.

Second: yes it was. You posted "This is true even in the US" and then put up some stats. That is what I was responding to.

Third: OK, another figure from the ADL:



Over the last decade, 71% of domestic extremist related killings in the US were linked to right-wing extremists, while Islamic extremists committed 26% of the killings, the report notes.

That stat is total number of murders, not number of incidents.

Yes I suppose its troubling that so many murders are committed by such a small percentage of our population (only ~1% are Muslims). But its also troubling that there has been such a huge growth of right wing violence recently. We already devote a huge amount of resources to prevent Islamic terror attacks, but the current administration handwaves away right-wing violence. Then of course the number of random mass shooting victims almost certainly outstrips them both.

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Old 10th November 2018, 06:44 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
First: actually the ADL says terrorist. Whatever, whether people go about killing others to effect political change through fear or just because they hate them isn't too big of a concern IMO.

Second: yes it was. You posted "This is true even in the US" and then put up some stats. That is what I was responding to.

Third: OK, another figure from the ADL:

https://www.adl.org/sites/default/fi...?itok=E2Cs_R5z

Over the last decade, 71% of domestic extremist related killings in the US were linked to right-wing extremists, while Islamic extremists committed 26% of the killings, the report notes.

That stat is total number of murders, not number of incidents.

Yes I suppose its troubling that so many murders are committed by such a small percentage of our population (only ~1% are Muslims). But its also troubling that there has been such a huge growth of right wing violence recently. We already devote a huge amount of resources to prevent Islamic terror attacks, but the current administration handwaves away right-wing violence. Then of course the number of random mass shooting victims almost certainly outstrips them both.
Calling something "right wing" or "left wing" is nonsensical especially when trying to categorize murders. We have another way to categorize murders.

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Old 10th November 2018, 06:53 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Calling something "right wing" or "left wing" is nonsensical especially when trying to categorize murders. We have another way to categorize murders.

https://i.imgur.com/EvTjriK.png
Could it be anything to do with the poverty of disadvantage that these descendants of white-enslaved people have continued to face under the white American hegemony, which has been recently seen newly emboldened white supremist attitudes?

Or is it that black people are genetically and or culturaly inferior and predisposed to homocide?

Just throwing some ideas out there while trying to understand your own take on this graph and the other similar you posted recently.
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Old 11th November 2018, 07:21 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Could it be anything to do with the poverty of disadvantage that these descendants of white-enslaved people have continued to face under the white American hegemony
Possibly a contributing factor, but it doesn't explain hispanics, who were not enslaved. Ordinary poverty seems to be a contributing factor as well, but an incomplete explanation.

Quote:
which has been recently seen newly emboldened white supremist attitudes?
Not relevant. This isn't a recent phenomenon.

Quote:
Or is it that black people are genetically and or culturaly inferior and predisposed to homocide?
Genetically? Unlikely. Culturally? Unfortunately, yes. Lower class black culture is steeped in gangs, drugs, and broken families. The causes of that dysfunction are not simple, but their existence is quite plain.
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Old 11th November 2018, 07:25 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Third: OK, another figure from the ADL:
I'm curious how those figures would change if you only counted ideologically motivated killings. The direction of change is obvious, but I don't have much intuition on the magnitude.
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Old 12th November 2018, 03:24 AM   #34
baron
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
First: actually the ADL says terrorist. Whatever, whether people go about killing others to effect political change through fear or just because they hate them isn't too big of a concern IMO.

Second: yes it was. You posted "This is true even in the US" and then put up some stats. That is what I was responding to.

Third: OK, another figure from the ADL:

https://www.adl.org/sites/default/fi...?itok=E2Cs_R5z

Over the last decade, 71% of domestic extremist related killings in the US were linked to right-wing extremists, while Islamic extremists committed 26% of the killings, the report notes.

That stat is total number of murders, not number of incidents.

Yes I suppose its troubling that so many murders are committed by such a small percentage of our population (only ~1% are Muslims). But its also troubling that there has been such a huge growth of right wing violence recently. We already devote a huge amount of resources to prevent Islamic terror attacks, but the current administration handwaves away right-wing violence. Then of course the number of random mass shooting victims almost certainly outstrips them both.
We're talking about the US again.

Those figures, incidentally, are bogus in this context for the reasons stated on the graphic. How can a terrorist attack not be motivated by ideology? It's impossible. The ADL include many domestic crimes, for instance, committed by extremists, not because of their nutty views but just because they are unbalanced. Whether the ADL produced the graph with dubious intent or whether you misinterpreted the meaning of the graph, it doesn't matter. Let's stick with the established figures.

As for the OP, we can take it as read that it is wrong. I proved that in my first post.
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Last edited by baron; 12th November 2018 at 03:25 AM.
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Old 12th November 2018, 04:18 AM   #35
bluesjnr
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I'm confused. Isn't this thread supposed to be about right wing terrorism in Europe?
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Old 12th November 2018, 04:26 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I'm confused. Isn't this thread supposed to be about right wing terrorism in Europe?
Yep.

Originally Posted by baron View Post
Second, the topic is terrorism in Europe.
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Nobody is doing that, at least not here, in a thread about Europe.
Originally Posted by baron View Post
We're talking about the US again.
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Old 12th November 2018, 05:20 AM   #37
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FBI: Neo-Nazi Militia Trained by US Military in Ukraine Now Training US White Supremacists

Quote:
[...] Indeed, the cooperation between the U.S. military and Azov Battalion has been reported on several occasions since 2015 such as when an Azov Battalion member told the Daily Beast in 2015 about “his battalion’s experience with U.S. trainers and U.S. volunteers quite fondly, even mentioning U.S. volunteers engineers and medics that are still currently assisting them.”

When news of the close cooperation caused an outcry in the U.S., the Obama administration shot down congressional efforts to limit arms, training and other assistance to the Azov Battalion. U.S. assistance to the Azov Battalion was only banned earlier this year.

However, Azov Battalion continues to receive arms from U.S. allies such as Israel. As journalist Max Blumenthal has noted in the past, Israel has a “history of working as a kind of proxy for the U.S. to arm forces that are committing human rights abuses, or that are fascistic.”

Yet now, as the recent indictment against RAM members shows, the training the U.S. provided to the Azov Battalion is coming back to roost in the U.S. as the neo-Nazi group is training and radicalizing U.S.-based groups with similar ideologies steeped in hatred and a belief in white racial supremacy. [...]

These Nazi freaks, enabled by unscrupulous scum like Viktoria Nuland and John McCain (may he rot in hell), are still daily terrorizing the people of Donbass with random artillery shelling and sniping.
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Old 12th November 2018, 05:27 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Calling something "right wing" or "left wing" is nonsensical especially when trying to categorize murders. We have another way to categorize murders.

https://i.imgur.com/EvTjriK.png
Please link to the source of this graphic, so we can better judge its veracity.
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Old 12th November 2018, 06:42 AM   #39
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Calling something "right wing" or "left wing" is nonsensical especially when trying to categorize murders. We have another way to categorize murders.

https://i.imgur.com/EvTjriK.png
Exactly terrorism does not exist and so shouldn't ever be recognized as a thing. They are all just simple murders no need to bother with more than that.
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Old 12th November 2018, 08:18 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
The ADL include many domestic crimes, for instance, committed by extremists, not because of their nutty views but just because they are unbalanced.
A lot of them are also ordinary criminal violence (ie, for money, drugs, etc.). That sort of activity isn't what you'd call well adjusted behavior, but it's not really crazy either.
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