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Tags David Gilroy , murder cases , Scotland cases

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Old 23rd October 2018, 02:01 PM   #601
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I just wanted to post this to show the utter insanity of what the cops seem to have imagined Gilroy did on his return journey, if he disposed of the body in the Ardgartan Forest.



68.4 miles with a nominal driving time of an hour and 43 minutes, as opposed to 4.1 miles and a nominal driving time of seven minutes. And the only reasons we know he did that, rather than spending the extra hour and 36 minutes burying the body, are that the Green Welly camera caught him, and he turned his mobile phone on a mere handful of minutes before he got to Tarbet, approaching from the north.

If the Tyndrum camera hadn't caught him, I'd have been more inclined to think that he'd driven directly to Tarbet then turned north up the A82 for a few miles before switching his phone on and driving back again, than that he'd actually done all that driving!

I simply don't believe he was in Ardgartan that day, or Lochgoilhead or Hell's Glen either. Not if he actually hid a dead body, anyway. If the soil and the vegetation really prove beyond any doubt that his car was in the Arrochar Alps that day, I'm going with the Lothian theory. If he already stashed the body during the night then he could have driven all that distance for the sheer hell of it because he wouldn't need any time to hide the body. So he could go via Tyndrum and then double back from Inveraray as far as he liked. And find somwhere fairly safe off-road to drive the car to get soil and vegetation on it. Maybe he borked the suspension somewhere in Midlothian and thought a bit of local Argyll colour would confuse the fuzz quite nicely.

But since nobody has a hope in hell of figuring out where to look in the Lothians, I'm sticking to the theory that she's somewhere north or west of Tyndrum, probably no more than ten miles north or 15 miles west.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 02:42 PM   #602
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Google map timings.

From The Green Wellly at 21.08 to Ardlui takes 17 minutes (taking into account the Crianlarich bypass was not completed by May 2010) he should have arrived at Ardlui at 21.25 but he arrived at 21.34 (9 minutes later)

From Ardlui to the Tesco Extra next to Corstorphine police station it takes 1 hour and 56 minutes and he still has to park and walk to the police station adding 3 minutes giving a total of 1 hour and 59 minutes.

If he drove non stop from Ardlui at 21.34 and arrived at the police station at 23.26 this journey took 1 hour and 52 minutes but he needed 1 hour and 59 minutes as above.(unless he put the foot down)

He arrived at the police station at 23.40 according to this bbc webpage.

"Mr Gilroy arrived at Corstorphine police station at 23:40 and was interviewed overnight."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-fife-17209732

And from the appeal judgement

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search...0-ff0000d74aa7

"He said he would be back at about 9.30 pm, although he only arrived at the police station more than two hours later, after the police had followed up their call."

If he did arrive at the police station at 23.40 then the times of the route are

21.08 Tyndrum Green Welly to Ardlui took him 26 minutes (losing 9 minutes somewhere as it should have taken 17 minutes and he should have arrived at Ardlui at 21.25)

21.34 Ardlui to Tesco Extra car park took him 2 hours and 3 minutes (losing 7 minutes somewhere as it should have taken 1 hour and 56 minutes and he should have arrived at Tesco Extra at 23.30)

23.37 Walk to police station takes 3 minutes

23.40 Arrive at police station

Google maps shows that driving non stop from The Green Welly it takes 2 hours and 14 minutes to get to Tesco Extra.

If you split the journey up in two - Green Welly to Ardlui takes 17 minutes then from the same point in Ardlui to Tesco Extra takes 1 hour and 56 minutes giving a total of 2 hours and 13 minutes.

Last edited by NightOfTheDemon; 23rd October 2018 at 03:19 PM. Reason: one minute out
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Old 23rd October 2018, 03:29 PM   #603
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Gilroy's arrival time at Corstorphine is given as 23:26 [ed] on the "animated map" thing they released earlier this year when they were trying to give the impression they were doing something. Maybe he went into Tesco and bought a sandwich before he went into the police station, if it's an all-night shop. Who knows. These timings aren't that critical anyway. He didn't lose much time and he was driving a car that was somewhat damaged. There's no real reason to think he stopped to buy food between Tyndrum and Corstorphine, and even if he did, Callander was nearer than Balloch, counting from Tyndrum.

What Crianlarich by-pass? I'm looking on the OS map and I see nothing different about the road layout than I remember from decades ago.

By the way, I found a few more photos of the Allt Broighleachan track, and one of them shows a very interesting landscape at the side of the track.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/5514830

I'm not sure how far he could carry the body. I may be underestimating the possibilities there, because he seems to be a reasonably strong guy and he obviously managed to get the body into the car boot which would have involved lifting. (I know from experience that I struggle to carry a dead body of 13 kg, so I'd be bloody useless at this game, but he was probably better.) If he could get her in among that lot, he wouldn't have to do much digging. My friend Douglas said, find a hollow under tree roots and then disguise it with vegetation. Some of these logs are moveable. And in early May, vegetation growth is going to hide a lot of sins very quickly.

Look at this one, photograph taken only four weeks after the murder. The place is bloody perfect. The only concerns are whether he would have had a high-ish chance of meeting someone up there, and the soil type.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2026158

Other images in that series - thumbnails on the right - are an absolute eye-opener. 1st June 2010. Makes you wonder if a there's anything in any of these pics! I simply can't figure out why the police search doesn't seem to have gone up there. Clear access to forest tracks without any gate, tracks well enough maintained that he probably wasn't going to ditch the car but still rough enough to do serious damage to his suspension, a climb long enough to have burned at least some of these missing litres of fuel, mature forest right by the side of the track, and what's more it's a reserve not a commercial plantation so it's not only mature it probably isn't going to suffer significant felling in the near future.

Could he really have got up there, twice, without anyone reporting a sighting to the police?

ETA: I think the mountain biking photos I linked to earlier were taken further up the glen nearer to Bridge of Orchy, not on the Allt Broighleachan tracks.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 23rd October 2018 at 04:04 PM. Reason: To correct the typo in his arrival time at Corstorphine
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Old 23rd October 2018, 03:47 PM   #604
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This website shows that the Crianlarich bypass construction was to start in May 2013.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...ntral-22610221

Prior to this if you were going from Tyndrum to Tarbet you had to turn right just before the rail bridge and pass by the Best Western Hotel to join the A82.

Strangely the OS aerial map does not show the bypass but change to standard and the bypass is there.

"Gilroy's arrival time at Corstorphine is given as 21:26 on the "animated map" thing they released earlier this year"

Should this be 23.26 and have you got a weblink to the animated map.

Last edited by NightOfTheDemon; 23rd October 2018 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 03:54 PM   #605
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Sorry, yes, 23:26. I'll try and dredge it up. It's on Facebook and I don't do Facebook but I managed to find it.

Here it is. https://www.facebook.com/PoliceScotl...7246641691082/ It's hard to see the final information box about his arrival because it's only on-screen for a moment but it says 23:26.

Note the way they give no indication at all of how he actually accessed the Rest and Be Thankful area during that journey. Compare that route to the image in my post #601 above.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 04:11 PM   #606
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Cant make the 23.26 out on the facebook video.

I can see these timings on a video on the Daily Record website

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...taken-12151822

Thistle Street 11.06
Barnton junction 11.25
Stirling Road Doune 12.09
Main Street Inveraray 13.22
Main Street East Inveraray 15.51
Lochgilphead School 16.24 to 17.58

The facebook video timings I can see are

Lochgilphead School 16.24 to 17.58
Main Street East Inverarary 18.58
Main Street Tyndrum 21.08
Then the video cuts off just before the red line gets to Edinburgh

Although I did find this image from the times

11.26.jpg

Which confirms he "arrives back in Edinburgh at 11.26" (23.26)

Is this Edinburgh in general or the actual police station ?

There are other sources which confirm the arrival as 23.40, so I dont know which is correct.

Also the image from the times shows his arrival at Lochgilphead School as 4.30pm when the video shows 16.24. (4.34pm)

Last edited by NightOfTheDemon; 23rd October 2018 at 04:29 PM.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 04:15 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by NightOfTheDemon View Post
This website shows that the Crianlarich bypass construction was to start in May 2013.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...ntral-22610221

Prior to this if you were going from Tyndrum to Tarbet you had to turn right just before the rail bridge and pass by the Best Western Hotel to join the A82.

Strangely the OS aerial map does not show the bypass but change to standard and the bypass is there.

I see what you mean now. I didn't remember that you had to go under the first railway bridge and then back again to get on to the A82 there. Isn't that odd that the aerial view is the out of date one, and the map is right! So many other places I'm seeing the aerial view is right and the map is out of date. For example at the Allt Broighleachan bridge, the aerial view shows the new car park on the other side of the road but it doesn't appear on either the 1:25,000 or the 1:50,000 map views.

ETA: The Google Earth view has the new road. (I usually find the OS aerial view is newer than the Google one but not this time.) It looks very new on that image, as if it was just finished. You can see the track of the old road too. It's now named Glenfalloch Road. (Maybe it always was.) I've just "driven" the old A82 on Google Streetview and it really emphasises what a definite decision he took to go that way. Right off the main drag and almost through the back streets to get to Loch Lomond, compared to straight along the main road to Lochearnhead. I did wonder if he just went too far round the roundabout in the dusk, found himself on the A82 and thought, might as well go this way. But the right turn back under the railway is something else. He didn't do that by accident.

So anyway, if that roundabout that saves going into the village and then back out again under the railway to get to the A82 wasn't there in 2010, it's even more peculiar that he would have turned off on to the A82 rather than just kept going on the A85. It's much more of a definite decision to take, to slow down and turn right, rather than just going on round the roundabout to the next exit. How very, very odd. That's actually worth editing into my wee paper on the topic.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 04:22 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by NightOfTheDemon View Post
Cant make the 23.26 out on the video, all I can see are these timings

Thistle Street 11.06
Barnton junction 11.25
Stirling Road Doune 12.09
Main Street Inveraray 13.22
Main Street East Inveraray 15.51
Lochgilphead School 16.24 to 17.58

Although I did find this image from the times

Attachment 39140

Which confirms he "arrives back in Edinburgh at 11.26" (23.26)

Is this Edinburgh in general or the actual police station ?

There are other sources which confirm the arrival as 23.40, so I dont know which is correct.

It's hard to see the last panel on the video animation but it has more information than the map you linked to. It has the time as 23:26, but it also names the Corstorphine police station and gives its post code, so I imagine they're saying that 23:26 was the time to the police station. So there's a 14-minute discrepancy. Maybe he got into the car park at 23:26, but then parking the car, walking to the police station, and maybe the first thing he did was visit the gents' after all that time behind the wheel, and he was finally signed in to the police station at 23:40.

I don't think it's really important. The timings of the phone pings (Ardlui and Gartocharn) show he didn't stop in Balloch, if that was the question that started this. How the time played out after Gartocharn isn't all that critical, I don't think.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 04:41 PM   #609
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Google maps shows that driving non stop from the Green Welly it takes 2 hours and 14 minutes to get to Tesco Extra.

Add 2 hours and 14 minutes from the time he passed the Green Welly at 21.08 and the time is 23.22 and 4 minutes to park and walk to the police station is not unreasonable.

That would mean he switched his phone on nearer Inveruglas (4.5 miles/8 minutes south of Ardlui.)

If you drive 26 minutes from The Green Welly Tyndrum (between 21.08 and 21.34) you arrive here.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/56...a=!4m2!4m1!3e0

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Old 23rd October 2018, 05:11 PM   #610
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That's almost exactly the same answer I got when I did it using the AA Route Finder. I'm just uncertain about the ability of a phone to ping the mast at Ardlui from there, however as I said, phone signals do weird things in deep mountain crevasses, and that is a deep mountain crevasse. But there are two masts at Inveruglas itself and one at Inversnaid, so it is a bit of a puzzle. Why didn't he wait till after Tarbet to switch the phone on?

Taking the old A82 through Crianlarich might add a minute or two to the time I suppose. The times we'll be getting now will be for the bypass. But he does seem to have been some way south of Ardlui any which way you slice it. (Oh, I see you cleverly made your route take the old road. So it doesn't make any serious difference. I tried the same game with the AA page and it put a minute on to the time, that's all.)
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Old 24th October 2018, 12:46 AM   #611
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https://www.scotsman.com/news/pilley...-1-2144298/amp

"Mr Peck said that Gilroy told him he had picked up a “bin liner” while in Lochgilphead which he used for “rubbish from his car which he discarded on the way back to Edinburgh”.

Girloy has to get rid of the rest of the evidence (clothing, shoes and mobile phone etc) on the way back from Lochgilphead to Edinburgh and he also has to thoroughly clean the car boot.

Maybe he risked taking the belongings/evidence with him in the boot to Lochgilphead School where he collects the bin liners and then finds a spot and bags the evidence/belongings and dumps them somewhere between Lochgilphead and Tyndrum.

He dumped the bags somewhere but theres a risk here that the bags will be found and they will link him to the murder but the bags have never been found, I wonder where he dumped them - could it have been here ?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.15...7i13312!8i6656

This may explain the missing minutes between Lochgilphead and Inveraray.

Then all he has to do after disposing of the belongings/evidence in the recycling bins is go back to put the finishing touches to the disposal site if he felt the need to (at Achnafalnich for example) but maybe he just found a quiet place before Tyndrum to park up and clean the boot.(as he was satisfied with the first disposal and did not feel the need to return to it)

Last edited by NightOfTheDemon; 24th October 2018 at 12:56 AM. Reason: environmentally friendly murderer ?
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Old 24th October 2018, 03:43 PM   #612
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I wondered about that myself. However there are a couple of points that brought me up short.

There's no report of Gilroy turning his phone off while he was at Lochgilphead. All the reports say he turned it on after passing through Inveraray and back off again as he returned through Inveraray. So how does he manage to dump anything significant in that time? They must have known where he was and where he spent the missing 27 minutes. I suspect the searches in Lochgilphead itself and on the A83 south-west of Inveraray were either just done to be seen to be doing something (in 2014 wasn't it?) or Hail Mary passes.

As you say, he could have disposed of soiled clothing and so on in a handy bin on the way and probably registered nothing unusual on the phone pings, but if he did that, what was he doing for the missing hour and a half between Inveraray and Tyndrum? He can't be dumping things he's already dumped, but if he did go back to where he disposed of the body then how is he then going to protect his nice suit if he has to do something else to that location?

I don't think he had to do much cleaning of the car boot. He didn't buy any cleaning products, only air freshener and charcoal - both will disguise scent but don't clean anything. He went to fetch the car knowing he was going to put a body in the boot. If he didn't take care to line that boot with something to prevent the body or any escaping fluids coming into contact with it he's a bigger idiot than I take him for. A couple of blankets would probably do the job, and all he has to do is get rid of these and spray the air freshener.

More stuff he has to dump, but not necessarily near Lochgilphead. I don't see why he would dump a lot of protective clothing and materials before Inveraray and then go back off-piste after Inveraray.

Also, he told the cops he disposed of rubbish from his car on the way home. Why did he tell them this? He's a devious bastard. This makes me suspicious that he didn't do this at all. Did he want them to waste time searching bins?

For sure he dumped incriminating material such as protective clothing, tools and blankets/sheets/whatever. But I can't imagine why he would do that before the second off-piste excursion. It would make more sense if the second Inveraray/Tyndrum missing period was when he did that, but as I said, that means we're looking for two dumping grounds in that area not just one, and we're struggling to find one at the moment.
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Old 24th October 2018, 04:04 PM   #613
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Now I know about the Crianlarich bypass I have to re-do a lot of the times in my paper. Everything after Crianlarich on the return journey has to have its AA estimated journey time increased by 2 minutes - that's what happened when I made the route go round by Glenfalloch Road so that it follows where the A82 went in 2010.

It's not a huge difference but it does a couple of interesting things. First, it makes his return journey time from Tyndrum to Corsorphine almost bang on the AA time - he took 2 hours 18 minutes and the AA time is 2 hours 17 minutes. Second, it moves his car significantly nearer to Ardlui at 21:34. This is good for making it more likely that he pinged the mast there (as of course he actually did), but not so good for my pet theory.

It still puts him seven minutes past Ardlui at that time though, and the fact that he was so close to the AA time for the entire section does reinforce the conclusion that he was more or less driving to the AA specs for the entire journey. It also puts him two minutes closer to Gartocharn at the time he pinged the mast there, so that also makes sense.

I just want to know why he turned that phone on before he got to Tarbet.
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Old 25th October 2018, 06:07 AM   #614
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Where exactly was Gilroy at 21.34 ?

If Gilroy drove at normal speeds he would be at Ardlui at 21.26.

If Gilroy drove at normal speeds he would be opposite Inveruglas visitor centre at 21.34.

If Gilroy switched his phone on when he was where he was supposed to be (according to the the google map timings) he should be opposite the Inveruglas visitor centre at 21.34 (Green Welly to Inveruglas visitor centre takes 26 minutes 21.08 to 21.34) and if he was there his phone is outwith the o2 Ardlui masts 5km range and he would be here on the map.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/56...8c35e2!1m0!3e0

His phone would have connected to the o2 mast across the loch at Inversnaid.

The Inversnaid masts 5km range stretches past the junction of the A82/A83 at Tarbet.

5km range image.

both masts.jpg

http://theconversation.com/what-the-...wer-data-28844

"If a signal becomes too weak because we have moved out of the cell, .... the phone connection may be handed over to another base station."

If Gilroy had moved out of the Ardlui masts range and into the Inversnaid masts range then at 21.34 he could be anywhere within the Inversnaid masts range which includes the area past the junction of the A82/A83 at Tarbet.

If you go fast enough is it possible to drive from the Green Welly to past the A82/A83 junction at Tarbet within 26 minutes when it normally takes 33 minutes ?

If it is then Gilroy could have been trying to indicate to the police that he had just driven on the A83 and had not passed Tyndrum on the way back to Edinburgh therefore trying to point the police to search in the RABT area and by doing so trying to distract the police from searching near Tyndrum.

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Old 25th October 2018, 01:23 PM   #615
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Originally Posted by NightOfTheDemon View Post
.... Gilroy could have been trying to indicate to the police that he had just driven on the A83 and had not passed Tyndrum on the way back to Edinburgh therefore trying to point the police to search in the RABT area and by doing so trying to distract the police from searching near Tyndrum.

This is my pet theory, but I'm not sure that it really works unless he was so tired and stressed and confused by the gathering dusk that he accidentally switched the phone on earlier than he intended to switch it on.

Originally Posted by NightOfTheDemon View Post
If you go fast enough is it possible to drive from the Green Welly to past the A82/A83 junction at Tarbet within 26 minutes when it normally takes 33 minutes?

I don't think so. Particularly not when the A82 Crianlarich bypass didn't exist at the time. It's not a fast road, dusk was gathering when it's hard to see, and most importantly we have no evidence at all of Gilroy driving faster than the AA or the Google times for the roads. (The AA and Google times seem to agree very well, maybe only a minute between them.)

I don't think we can reasonably suggest that it was possible for Gilroy to get to the junction by 21:34. There is also, as you point out, the problem of the phone mast reception radius.

Originally Posted by NightOfTheDemon View Post
If Gilroy drove at normal speeds he would be at Ardlui at 21.26.

If Gilroy drove at normal speeds he would be opposite Inveruglas visitor centre at 21.34.

If Gilroy switched his phone on when he was where he was supposed to be (according to the the google map timings) he should be opposite the Inveruglas visitor centre at 21.34 (Green Welly to Inveruglas visitor centre takes 26 minutes 21.08 to 21.34) and if he was there his phone is outwith the o2 Ardlui masts 5km range and he would be here on the map.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/56...8c35e2!1m0!3e0

His phone would have connected to the o2 mast across the loch at Inversnaid.

The Inversnaid masts 5km range stretches past the junction of the A82/A83 at Tarbet.

5km range image.

Attachment 39151

http://theconversation.com/what-the-...wer-data-28844

"If a signal becomes too weak because we have moved out of the cell, .... the phone connection may be handed over to another base station."

If Gilroy had moved out of the Ardlui masts range and into the Inversnaid masts range then at 21.34 he could be anywhere within the Inversnaid masts range which includes the area past the junction of the A82/A83 at Tarbet.

But he didn't connect to Inversnaid, he connected to Ardlui.

I think we can be flexible with the range of these masts because of the terrain. The 5 km radius refers to flat countryside where there's nothing preventing the signal being propagated. In mountainous country, which this is, dead spots appear in the shadow of hills where it's not possible to receive a signal from a mast that's actually quite close, but also sometimes signals can reflect and be received out of their normal radius.

Nevertheless even if you leave the mast radius out of it, the driving times don't work. As I said, we have no evidence of Gilroy putting his foot down at any point in this saga. There is no leg of the journey were he clocked a time faster than the AA estimate for the roads. On the leg we're talking about, which is just over 100 miles, he clocked one minute more than the AA estimate. We have no justification for assuming he put his foot down after Tyndrum.

The Gartocharn phone call reinforces the point that he didn't speed up. Tyndrum to Gartocharn is an hour and 2 minutes by the AA estimate. Therefore if he was driving to that speed he would have been at Gartocharn at ten past ten. The phone call was timed at (about?) 22:15 I believe. So even if he was going at the AA estimated speed he was already some way (five minutes) past Gartocharn by 22:15. If he'd been going any faster than that he would certainly have been out of range of that mast by that time. Maybe the phone call was a couple of minutes before 22:15 though, I don't know if that time is exact.

I can't see any justification for assuming he drove significantly faster or slower than the AA estimates on this journey. So where does that put him at 21:34 by the AA timings? Ardlui to Tarbet is eight miles and the AA says 15 minutes. That's 32 mph. Well, like I said, it's a horrible road. seven minutes past Ardlui is half a minute less than half way. It comes out at 3.73 miles. Inveruglas is 4.2 miles from Ardlui, so by the AA timings he's maybe half a mile short of Inveruglas. This is playing in the cracks and obviously I wouldn't quarrel with your position from the Google timings - it's within half a mile.

But if you look at the geography there, Inveruglas should be blocked from an Ardlui signal. Ben Vorlich (or at least the Ben Vorlich range) is very much in the way. Signals can do weird things in these mountainous regions, but getting a signal from Ardlui when you're in Inveruglas is more than weird.

So I don't get this, two ways. By the driving times he should have been in Inveruglas at 21:34, but Inveruglas doesn't look as if it gets a sight of the Ardlui mast. And even if he was in Inveruglas, this is still four miles shy of Tarbet which, if my pet theory is right, is the absolutely earliest point he would have wanted to switch the phone on.

I'm back to suggesting he was tired and stressed and confused by the gathering dusk and made a mistake. But I'm stymied by Ben Vorlich, and unable to see how his phone could have pinged Ardlui if he was where he should have been at that time.
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Old 25th October 2018, 03:42 PM   #616
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Maybe he just didnt know the Crianlarich to Tarbet road that well as he wouldnt normally drive that road when he goes to and from Lochgilphead school.

When driving that road you do ask yourself if it will ever end.

He did make the conscious decision to turn right at Crianlarich which he knew would add more time to his journey to Edinburgh and he also knew the police would be hounding him if he was any later getting to Edinburgh than he said he would be.

By switching his phone on at Ardlui/Inveruglas he should have known that a mast would connect to his phone in that vicinity and if he wanted to deceive the police into thinking he had just driven on the A83 he should have waited until he was south of Tarbet before switching his phone on.

If he switched his phone on at Ardlui/Inveruglas on purpose this tells the police "I have just driven from Tyndrum to Crianlarich and now I am at Ardlui/Inveruglas" this also tells the police "I did not go straight on at Crianlarich"

Why would he think it was so important that the police knew this information ?

If Gilroy assumed there would be no CCTV evidence available to the police, then

When he switched his phone off in the morning near junction 10 of the M9 he gave the police a decision to make - did he go to Lochgilphead via the A84 or via the A811.

When he switched his phone on after Inveraray he gave the police a decision to make - did he go to Inveraray via the A83 or A819.

When he switched his phone off before Inveraray he gave the police a decision to make - did he go to Edinburgh via the A83 or A819.

Why did he even need to switch his phone on at all - keep the phone off until he gets to Edinburgh and let the police choose if he actually went to Crianlarich from Inveraray (and which way did he go when he got there) or did he go on the A83/A82/A811/M9 roads.

I think he meant to switch his phone on at Ardlui/Inveruglas and there must be a reason for this - everything else was planned perfectly and he used his phone to give the police two route choices every time except when he switched his phone on at Ardlui/Inveruglas.

By switching his phone on at Ardlui/Inveruglas he has reduced the police choice of the route he has taken from two (either the A83 or A819 after Inveraray) to one. (the A819)

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Old 31st October 2018, 01:26 PM   #617
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I agree with every word of that, I just don't get it.

Once you realise the A82 bypass wasn't there at the time, the detour down Loch Lomondside becomes much more deliberate and more difficult to understand. It wasn't just a matter of continuing round a roundabout and carrying on along a fast freeway-type road (for a bit, at least). I could almost imagine that he might have missed the exit for the A85, taken the A82 in error, and then just carried on. But that wasn't the scenario. He had to make a deliberate right turn off the main road and on to what was more or less a side road under another railway bridge and up the side of the station. You don't do that by accident or in a moment of absent-mindedness.

As you say, that road is hellish, certainly as far as Tarbet. I was surprised that my friend chose to do that rather than come to my house via Stirling, because everyone else I've spoken to has said they try to avoid the A82 Loch Lomondside if at all possible. A couple of people have said they've gone that way from Edinburgh to Inveraray just once, because that was the way the AA or the RAC or a satnav pointed them, and never again.

I think my friend's choice of route exemplifies the role of habit here. He was born in Glasgow but brought up in Oban. West coast person. From Glasgow to Oban you go the Rest and Be Thankful, there isn't much choice. It's the road he would always have come, for decades. So even though he was coming to the Edinburgh side, he still chose to go Inveraray-Tarbet rather than Crianlarich-Stirling, although the latter is the better route. But then the other week, when the Rest and Be Thankful was blocked by the landslides and he was forced to go via Crianlarich, rather than carry on to Stirling he chose to detour through Ardlui (as Gilroy did) and rejoin the road he originally intended to take.

But Gilroy lived in Edinburgh. People in Edinburgh that I've talked to know that Crianlarich is the better road even if it is slightly longer on paper, specifically because it steers you away from the dreaded Loch Lomondside area. Gilroy clearly knew that, given his outbound route. So why in the world would he head down the A82 when he was already well on his way home by the sensible route?

This more than anything makes me sure he didn't dispose of Suzanne's body somewhere in the Glen Croe area. Whatever the hell he was up to, I can't see him heading right back to Glen Croe by way of a 70-mile detour if the body of his ex bidie-in was lying there.

Everything he has done does seem to be following a well-devised plan. Even the bizarre right turn in Crianlarich makes perfect sense if he keeps that phone off until he's past Tarbet. I simply can't think of any reason at all for him to have planned to do what he actually did.

Thinking about this a bit more, my feeling is that if the soil and vegetation on his car did really come from the Rest and Be Thankful area, Suzanne is somewhere in the Lothians. There is no sense at all in the drive Gilroy is alleged to have done, if his intention was to leave the body in the Arrochar Alps. Way too much pointless driving and way too little time to do a decent job on the disposal side. The only way the driving we know he did makes any sense at all is if he disposed of the body somewhere past Tyndrum, probably in Glen Orchy.

I still have a problem with that mad drive seen as a decoy route though. Yes, there are many suitable places to lose a body near Edinburgh. Yes, night is a far better time to get away with it than broad daylight. Also, sunrise was 05:21 that morning. It starts getting light before that. Getting to a good disposal site during darkness and using first light to see what he was doing and make sure he'd done a good job on the concealment front makes a lot of sense. Then, realising that he might have been caught on a CCTV camera he doesn't know about, he heads off into Argyll the next day to get the cops looking at the wrong cameras.

Except, how shattered would he have been after doing that? Then driving all that time the next day, then being questioned by the police all night the following night. Most people would be ready to do an Amanda Knox and confess to the Jack the Ripper murders after that lot. Adrenaline only gets you so far.

He could have slept for a bit while he was off-piste during the day I suppose. Every little helps. But would he really have taken quite such a circuitous route if he was just decoying? That drive itself was a fair bit of evidence against him, whereas if he'd gone a more direct route but simply gone off the radar for an hour or two en route, he could have said he'd felt tired, stopped for a break, maybe a bite to eat, and just nodded off for a bit. If there was no chance of a body being found in Argyll it wouldn't be too big a disaster if they more or less knew where he'd been, because they'd just go on believing he'd hidden her too well in a forest somewhere.

Why, why, why are they so sure about the Arrochar Alps? The more I look at the Allt Broighleachan tracks the more I'm inclined to think that's a likely spot. Did you see these photos?
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Old 2nd November 2018, 01:11 PM   #618
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The forest at Allt Broighleachan does look like a worthy disposal site but he could have been discouraged from going as far as Cruach Eachd due to the likelihood of a hiker or cyclist spotting him and contacting the police when they made the appeal (for sightings of a silver car.)

If he could drive into the Peaty Podzols/Strichen here (marked in the black square) then there is a better chance of remaining unseen while disposing of the body.

Allt.jpg

This may be a coincidence but.............

From Doune motors to Green Welly Tyndrum it normally takes 61 minutes but it took Gilroy 74 minutes from 12.09 to 13.23.

13 minutes extra.

From Green Welly Tyndrum to the northern most edge of the Ardlui masts 5km radius normally takes 13 minutes but it may have took Gilroy 26 minutes (from 21.08 to 21.34)

13 minutes extra.

It is possible he spent these 13 minutes going here (into the Peaty Podzols/Strichen)

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/56...e3!4m2!4m1!3e0

He would have to get past this gate (it does not look like this gate had a chain/padlock in April 2010)

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.39...7i13312!8i6656

If he went on this track and doubled back to Crianlarich there would be no police attention directed on this track on his journey from Tyndrum. All he had to do was double back from this track and turn left at The Best Western Hotel in Crianlarich and drive on Glenfalloch Road towards Ardlui and nobody would have suspected he was near the track.

If he had went straight on at The Best Western Hotel in Crianlarich then went to this track then went back to Edinburgh on the A85 then the police may have checked the tracks (although the soil for the first 0.4 miles of the track is Mineral Podzols/Corby the soil changes to Peaty Podzols/Strichen after this)

Image of track from another angle with Forestry sign - Crianlarich Community Woodland.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.39...7i13312!8i6656

There are only two o2 masts between Tyndrum and Ardlui - one at Upper Tyndrum Station and the other at Ardlui -there are no o2 masts in between these two masts.

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Old 2nd November 2018, 06:25 PM   #619
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I don't think he'd have gone as far as the Cruach Eachd either, because the contour lines up there look quite scary. That's one reason why I didn't think he'd have gone for the Lochan Coire Thoraidh either. Also, it's obvious from the photographs that there are good places to conceal a body without going as far as that. I don't see how he could have got his car into the area of your black square though. There are no tracks, only some firebreaks, and it's moderately steep terrain.

According to the AA, the time from Doune Motors to the Green Welly is 65 minutes. Gilroy took 73 minutes, so by that calculation he was only 8 minutes behind. I still think we should be asking bookshops in Callander whether they sold an OS map of Glen Orchy to a fair-haired man that lunch-time.

But you're right, there could be a bit of missing time both ways on that leg. I make it seven minutes on the way back if he was actually in Ardlui when the phone pinged the mast. I just don't see what his motivation would have been for going off-road near Crianlarich. It's not as if he would have had any way of guessing that that area might have a similar soil type to parts of the Arrochar Alps.

I've been thinking about his disposal of the clothes, overalls, blankets, spade, whatever he brought with him to keep his clothes and the car clean and maybe dig a hole. I had thought he would have wanted to put them somewhere different from the body, but maybe not. Having either the body or his stash of protective clothing discovered somewhere in Argyll was likely to get him convicted, unless of course he thought that even the discovery of clothes with his DNA, blankets with Suzanne's DNA and a spade or two would still not matter if they couldn't find the body.

So by that argument, he's better disposing of everything in the same place. Two disposal areas just double the chance something is going to be found.

I'm also thinking about the time a lot of this would have taken. Not only does he have to identify a track that will take him into the forest unobserved and then find a suitable location to leave the body, he has to change his clothes or put on overalls (probably a change of clothes), and then change back before he drives away. He has to sanitise the car and spray that air freshener on it. He has to conceal clothes, blankets, maybe a spade or two as well as the body.

There is no way on God's green earth he did this and drove from Inveraray to the Rest and Be Thankful and back, twice. Never mind the suggestion that he actually drove an extra 124 miles!

I'm ignoring the soil for the moment. They searched the Ardgartan Forest and Glen Shira, and neither of these are big on the peaty podzols either. So in that case the only drawback to the Allt Broighleachan track is the possibility of being seen. That had to be a risk, but that risk existed anywhere he decided to go. At least he could get off the road there without having to stop and open a gate. And if he found somewhere to run the car off the road so that it couldn't be seen, the time period where he was actually out in the open on the track would be relatively short.

Maybe he was lucky and there just wasn't anyone there. It was a weekday. Maybe he was lucky and although he was seen the person/people who saw him didn't hear the police appeals, or just heard about them looking for sightings in the Arrochar Alps and didn't think anything about someone off-road in Glen Orchy. He had to take a risk. Show me a possible track into the forest that's risk-free!
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Old 3rd November 2018, 09:29 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by NightOfTheDemon View Post
There are only two o2 masts between Tyndrum and Ardlui - one at Upper Tyndrum Station and the other at Ardlui -there are no o2 masts in between these two masts.

What about south of Ardlui? Are any of the masts at Inveruglas or Inversnaid O2 ones?
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Old 3rd November 2018, 01:29 PM   #621
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There are 4 o2 masts (as of 2012) between Tyndrum and (just past) Tarbet.

1 - Tyndrum Upper station
2 - Ardlui retreat
3 - Inversnaid
4 - (just past) the junction of A82/A83 at Tarbet

The locations can be seen in these images.

Tyndrum mast.jpg

Ardlui mast.jpg

Inversnaid mast.jpg

Tarbet mast.jpg

Image of all four o2 masts 5km radius

4 masts.jpg

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Old 3rd November 2018, 04:28 PM   #622
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Thanks for that.
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Old 3rd November 2018, 05:59 PM   #623
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To summarise :

The Achnafalnich track beyond the gate and the tracks over the bridge leading to Allt Broighleachan are likely disposal sites. But ..........

After more than 8 years we are looking for bones, (assuming wildlife have not dispersed the bones)

There is the possibility of a (Peter Tobin esque) burial in his back garden or he could have disposed of the body on the Tuesday night (4th May 2010) in the Pentland Hills.

He did not have a enough time to dig a deep hole (which would never be discovered) and he did not arrive at Lochgilphead School with mud on his suit and shoes and looking as if he had exerted himself. He took time to ensure he looked exactly as he should look and this indicates to me that rather than a land burial he went for the option of disposing of the body in water. (he would have to ensure the body would never float to the surface)

He would have encountered some complications during a water based disposal but there are many more complications involved in a land disposal.

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Old 3rd November 2018, 06:48 PM   #624
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If she's in the Pentland Hills I won't know whether to laugh or cry. (I live in the Pentland Hills.)

Bones, and possibly dispersed. But also blankets, overalls or gardening clothes (including gloves) and maybe a garden spade. Old shoes or boots. It's not that hard to get absolutely clarty and then smarten yourself up if you've had the forethought to bring the right gear.

Water is far more difficult than land. We discussed it earlier in the thread. It seems like a good idea until you get into the nitty-gritty detail.
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Old 8th November 2018, 04:00 PM   #625
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When he turned his phone off he was probably not yet on the the A84 but nearer junction 10 of the M9 at Craigforth Interchange (although In this close up of the pdf map the red line points to Rossburn Lane near Blairdrummond Moss)

Outward phone switched off.jpg

Assuming he thought that he would not get caught anywhere on CCTV, his thought process could have been "I have just indicated to the police (by turning my phone off before I get to the junction of the A84 and Kirk Lane) that it is possible I have started to drive to Inveraray/Lochgilphead via the A84/Kirk Lane/A811/A82 Loch Lomondside then the police will think I have driven on the A83 past the RABT"

Then he thinks that the police could look anywhere along the A811/A82/A83 for the disposal site so he wants to be more specific in order to deflect police attention from our preferred Glen Lochy/Glen Orchy area disposal site.

With this plan he was not actually on the A811 or A82 Loch Lomondside on the way to Lochgilphead so he could not give the police a clue to a specific area along this route.

He could give the police a clue that he was on the A83 though as long as he only spends about 50 minutes concealing the body in the the Glen Lochy/Glen Orchy area.(he would complete the job later)

After safely hiding the body in the the Glen Lochy/Glen Orchy area then when he gets to the junction of the A819/A83 turn left and drive for about 20 minutes and spend another 20 minutes near the RABT ensuring he gets seen and maybe even interact with a tourist or switch his phone on then off to ensure his phone connected to a mast in the area for a few seconds.

On he goes back to the junction of the A83/A819 and through Inveraray and when he is finished at Lochgilphead school there is no need to return to the RABT area as one trip there for misdirection will be enough.

He then goes back to the disposal site in the the Glen Lochy/Glen Orchy area and has an hour and a half to complete the job.

Then he is off to Tyndrum and he decides to turn right at Crianlarich and when he gets to Ardlui/Inveruglas he decides to switch his phone on.

Was this a mistaken misdirection or an intentional misdirection or did he do this just to confuse the police ?

There was no need for another misdirection and this would have been his first mistake that day so maybe he switched his phone on at Ardlui/Inveruglas because he felt the need to (over)emphasise to the police that "how could I have been on the A83 if you have traced my phone going south from Ardlui/Inveruglas to Tarbet and if I was on the A83 it would have been much quicker to stay on the A83 to get to Tarbet" "It is ludicrous to think I would have doubled back all the way to the A819/A85 to Tyndrum to Crianlarich to Ardlui/Inveruglas to get to Tarbet"

Or by switching on his phone (just for the hell of it and just because he could) he could be playing mind games with the police.

He has played mind games with the police before when he was being driven to St Leonard's police station to be medically examined.

From the appeal https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search...0-ff0000d74aa7

"As the police drove the appellant through the Grassmarket, the appellant had shouted out "There she is", indicating a person who was not the deceased.

He could have been near the RABT/Glen Croe/Hells Glen but only to misdirect the police investigation and divert attention from the Glen Lochy/Glen Orchy area and if he did go near the RABT/Glen Croe/Hells Glen area then he only needed to go there once.

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Old 8th November 2018, 04:29 PM   #626
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I see what you mean, but I don't think the timing flies in the first part of that.

First, he has to find a suitable disposal site for the body. Even if it's in his mind that (for example) the Allt Broighleachan track is a pretty good bet and goes straight there, he still has to find a specific suitable spot up the hill in the forest.

The bridge over the Orchy is about five miles up the B8074. That's ten minutes, 20 to go there and back. Then he has to get a couple of miles up the hill on these rutted tracks. That's easily enough another 20 minutes even if he did go fast enough to break his suspension. So, 40 minutes off that 1 hour 51 minutes window.

Then he has to get the car off the road in case someone comes past. Then he has to change into his gardening clothes or whatever he brought. Then he has to get the body out of the car and heave it well out of sight of anyone or anything. That's not trivial. Is he then just going to dump her and leave her there, intending to return? Then he has to get back into his suit and tidy himself up so he looks normal when he gets to the school.

Bear in mind that it's 20 minutes to the Rest and Be Thankful from Inveraray, and then another 20 minutes back. You suggest he spent 20 minutes just hanging around as well, that's an entire hour of his hour and 51 minutes just wasting time. Plus the 40 minutes or so to get up to the real disposal site, you've left him ten minutes to do the unloading of the body and associated palaver.

Why on earth would he prioritise a trip to the Arrochar Alps for misdirection over getting the body buried or at least concealed? Over getting to the school before everyone has gone home? Also, he didn't turn his phone on at all. There were no mast pings in Glen Croe, that was just the Record making stuff up which let's face it they have form on. And although people said they saw a silver car, nobody in the Arrochar Alps positively identified him.

Finally, if you're trying to explain the soil and vegetation on his car, you're suggesting he drove off-road in the decoy journey, so far off-road that he plastered his car with chunks of landscape.

This is crazy behaviour. Far more time and effort spent creating a false trail than actually concealing the body. I don't buy it.

On the way back he still doesn't have very long. An hour and 32 minutes. Take off 40 minutes to get to the disposal site again and you're down to less than an hour. He has to get the car off-road again, change back into the gardening gear, dig a hole or get the body to a hollow, cover it up, do the same for the blankets and whatever he lined the boot with, and prepare a disposal site for the spare clothes, spade, whatever. He has to change back into the suit, conceal the old clothes as well, sanitise the car boot (air freshener) and smarten himself up to meet the police. It's not long enough.

I do take your point about the mind games though. If he made a mistake on the phone turn-on then it was the only one. It's a possible explanation, no doubt about it.
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Old 8th November 2018, 04:35 PM   #627
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This is the o2 masts 5km range. (situated near the Craigforth Interchange)

The masts range does not stretch to the junction of the A84 and Kirk Lane.

junction 10 5km mast range.jpg

Previous post amended to

Assuming he thought that he would not get caught anywhere on CCTV, his thought process could have been "I have just indicated to the police (by turning my phone off before I get to the junction of the A84 and Kirk Lane) that it is possible I have started to drive to Inveraray/Lochgilphead via the A84/Kirk Lane/A811/A82 Loch Lomondside then the police will think I have driven on the A83 past the RABT"

This actually means he switched his phone off at the perfect time (if his plan was to attract the police to search the RABT area whilst distracting the police from searching Glen Lochy/Glen Orchy) as if he passes the junction of the A84/Kirk Lane and continues on the A84 with his phone still on then the A811/A82/A83 route would be (initially) ruled out by the police.

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Old 8th November 2018, 05:11 PM   #628
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I can't see that there's enough time for him to have disposed of the body near Tyndrum/Dalmally and gone into the Arrochar Alps either which way. On the outward journey he has all the extra time it will inevitably take scouting for the place where he's going to leave her. He has to do a good enough job that she won't be found if anyone comes past during the afternoon when he's at the school. His priority is concealing the body, not laying a false trail. When he's done all that is he then going to waste at least 45-50 minutes just going to show his face around the Rest and Be Thankful, and not even turn his phone on? When this means he won't get to the school until nearly everyone has gone? It's a crazy plan and Gilroy wasn't crazy.

On the way back we know he went back to Tyndrum. So he must have had a very pressing reason to revisit the disposal site. Why on earth would he go first into the Arrochar Alps before doing that? I don't buy it at all (and I realise you didn't suggest that.)

If he went into the Arrochar Alps at all, I think the body is somewhere in the Lothians. He only has time to go round by Tyndrum and visit the Rest and Be Thankful, if he doesn't have a body to get rid of. If he doesn't have to do that then the whole thing is mind games and yes, it's not impossible.
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Old 8th November 2018, 05:14 PM   #629
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Originally Posted by NightOfTheDemon View Post
Assuming he thought that he would not get caught anywhere on CCTV, his thought process could have been "I have just indicated to the police (by turning my phone off before I get to the junction of the A84 and Kirk Lane) that it is possible I have started to drive to Inveraray/Lochgilphead via the A84/Kirk Lane/A811/A82 Loch Lomondside then the police will think I have driven on the A83 past the RABT"

This actually means he switched his phone off at the perfect time (if his plan was to attract the police to search the RABT area whilst distracting the police from searching Glen Lochy/Glen Orchy) as if he passes the junction of the A84/Kirk Lane and continues on the A84 with his phone still on then the A811/A82/A83 route would be (initially) ruled out by the police.

Yes, I concur. That was also my thinking, exactly. And the switch-on after Inveraray fits that pattern too. As does the switch-off in Inveraray on the return journey.

It's just the switch-on at Ardlui that's inconsistent. Mind games, you may be right.
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Old 8th November 2018, 05:24 PM   #630
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I have a thought about what might have been going on with the return journey.

Let's suppose he did a decent job on the outward journey. Scooted straight to the bridge and up the Allt Broighleachan track and had over an hour there. Not enough time to dig a proper grave, but get the body into a space between tree roots and cover it over. Maybe he got rid of some of what he lined the boot with as well, maybe he left her wrapped in the blankets. But he still had the gardening clothes and the gloves and the welly boots and the spade in his car. He was going to put them through the washing machine, clean them, dispose of them in Edinburgh, whatever.

Then at Lochgilphead he talks to the cops and he's told to go straight to the police station on his way back. Oh hell, he has to get rid of everything. NOW.

So what does he do? The gear he used to do the physical work of disposing of the body is going to be as incriminating as the body. There may be Suzanne's DNA on it. There will be his DNA. Even Gilroy isn't going to imagine he can continue to bluster it out if they find that sort of stuff somewhere in Argyll. A wheelie bin in Furnace isn't going to cut it.

Does he find a second secure disposal site? But it was hard enough to find the first one. And two disposal sites doubles the chance one of them is going to be found. So he goes back to the original disposal site and this time he gets rid of everything (maybe this is what the plastic bags were for) and makes sure the car is clean enough to pass a police inspection.

(I don't know that they did search bins along his return journey. But given what he said about dumping rubbish from his car I reckon they probably ought to have done that.)
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Old 8th November 2018, 06:18 PM   #631
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Maybe he knew exactly where the disposal site was going to be that day when he left Edinburgh.

He could have spent up to 1 hour and 51 minutes visually verifying that the disposal site was indeed suitable but did not actually open the car boot (and if he has any time left he may have considered a bit of misdirection at the RABT)

In this scenario he still has the body in the boot when he gets to Lochgilphead (which was very risky) but there is also a risk of being caught digging a hole or concealing the body at two o'clock in the afternoon. It would be less of a risk to wait until half past seven in the evening when the tourists have moved on.

On the way back to Edinburgh he has 1 hour and 32 minutes to get from the junction of the A85/B8074 to the bridge which leads to the Allt Broighleachan track (this takes 11 minutes each way) then he has 1 hour and 10 minutes to go straight to the disposal site in the Caledonian Forest Reserve and complete the disposal and all the other associated tasks.

He did not have enough time to dig a grave but did have enough time to suitably conceal the body along with whatever else was in the boot under some logs or in a deep crevice never to be seen again.

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Old 9th November 2018, 03:47 AM   #632
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I can't see it, to be honest. He doesn't have all the time in the world. He has to be at Lochgilphead by half past four at the latest or the school will be completely deserted. He has to be finished whatever he's doing to conceal the body before dark, so realistically if he's among trees about 8.30 pm.

He knows that time off-piste is both limited and suspicious. His priority is getting rid of the body. Maybe if he has time left over he'll do a bit of misdirection, but it's not going to be the first thing he does before he's dealt with the body-disposal, and it's not going to be something he spends more time on than actually concealing the body. I can't believe that he did a 1 hr 51 minute detour on the outward journey, including (we believe) wrecking his suspension, and didn't actually unload the body.

I can't see any way he both concealed the body and went into the Rest and Be Thankful area that day. Even if he did nothing at all near Tyndrum, simply drove straight to Inveraray and doubled back and actually concealed the body in the Arrochar Alps, he's cut 45 minutes off his time just doubling back. He's left with just over an hour to do everything I said above, including finding a good place to leave the body. This is why I think the police are on the wrong track. It just gets even madder if he does all that detouring in addition to concealing the body somewhere else. (And it's even madder on the way back.)

I'm really firming up my conclusion that he didn't go anywhere near the Arrochar Alps that day, and if he did and that's been conclusively proved, then he went out the previous night and concealed the body somewhere near Edinburgh.
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Old 10th November 2018, 05:24 PM   #633
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This is the outward journey map with three route options from the junction of Kirk Lane and the A84.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/56...56.0287167!3e0

Excluding the M80/M8 route this leaves two route options and if Gilroy wanted the police to think he could have gone on either of these two routes then by turning his phone off just before the junction of Kirk Lane and the A84 this leaves both routes in the in the frame.

He turned his phone off just past Inveraray on the way to Lochgilphead again leaving both routes in the frame.

He turned his phone off just before Inveraray on the way to Edinburgh again leaving both routes in the frame.

Assuming he thought that he would not get caught anywhere on CCTV and he feels the need to misdirect the subsequent police investigation he can turn his phone on during his return route anywhere he thinks will achieve the most effective misdirection.

If we concentrate on Gilroys thought process on the return journey to Edinburgh, then :

He left Lochgilphead school at 17.58 and he should have arrived in Inveraray 33 minutes later at 18.31 but he kept his phone on until just before Inveraray and he knew that the police would later trace his phone signal until he turned his phone off. The police would work out it that it took him an hour instead of 33 minutes to drive from Lochgilphead school to Inveraray.

The disposal site would not be in an area where he had his phone turned on, so the disposal site is not between Lochgilphead and Inveraray.

He gets to the junction of the A83/A819 with his phone turned off, again leaving both routes in the frame.

If he feels the need to misdirect the subsequent police investigation he can turn his phone on at a point which proves (to a certain extent) that he drove on one route and not on the other.

Option 1 - If he turns his phone on at the Green Welly Tyndrum this would create the impression that he went back by the northern route. It would be 21.08 and the police would then take into account that in the time it has taken him to get from Inveraray (18.58 to 21.08 - 2 hours and 10 minutes) to Tyndrum it was still physically possible to go to and from the junction of the A83/A819 to the RABT and back back in this timeframe puting the RABT in the frame as a disposal site.

Option 2 - If he turns his phone on at Crianlarich it should be 21.14 (21.08 plus 6 minutes) this would create the impression that he went back by the northern route. The police would then take into account that in the time it has taken him to get from Inveraray (18.58 to 21.14 - 2 hours and 16 minutes) to Crianlarich it was still physically possible to go to and from the junction of the A83/A819 to the RABT and back in this timeframe puting the RABT in the frame as a disposal site.

Option 3 - If he turns his phone on at Lochearnhead at the junction A84/A85 it should be 21.36 (21.08 plus 28 minutes) this would create the impression that he went back by the northern route. The police would then take into account that in the time it has taken him to get from Inveraray (18.58 to 21.36 - 2 hours and 38 minutes) to Lochearnhead it was still physically possible to go to and from the junction of the A83/A819 to the RABT and back back in this timeframe puting the RABT in the frame as a disposal site.

Option 4 - If he turns his phone on at Ardlui it should be 21.25 (21.08 plus 17 minutes) (although it was 21.34) and this would create the impression that he went back by the northern route. The police would then take into account that in the time it has taken him to get from Inveraray (18.58 to 21.34 - 2 hours and 36 minutes) to Ardlui it was still physically possible to go to and from the junction of the A83/A819 to the RABT and back in this timeframe puting the RABT in the frame as a disposal site.

In all four options he has time to divert to the RABT area but option 4 adds another dimension in that anyone (including the police) would find it inconceivable that he chose to drive over 60 miles the long way round when he could have driven 4 miles on the shorter route to get to Tarbet.

Rolfes map highlights the insanity of taking such a route.

Crazy diversion.jpg

All 4 options get the same result (that it was physically possible in the timeframe to divert from the junction of the A83/A819 along the A83 to the RABT and back to the junction of the A83/A819) but by going for option 4 Gilroy has made an extra effort to divert attention from the A83.
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Old 10th November 2018, 06:09 PM   #634
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I can't help thinking we're overthinking this a bit. He had time to plan but not that much. He would inevitably have been focussing on the actual disposal of the body. Where and how and how to get in and out without being seen and so on. How to do all this and still appear clean and tidy afterwards. How to prevent Suzanne's DNA getting on to his car. How to cope with her weight and rigor mortis and so on.

I'm not saying he wouldn't have tried for a bit of misdirection, but any scenario that has him in the Arrochar Alps and driving round by Tyndrum both times has him spending more of his precious time driving than actually concealing the body, regardless of where he actually concealed it. If we simply take the Rest and Be Thankful as his "destination", he drove 93 miles further than necessary, driving for two and a quarter hours. Further and longer if he went into Glen Croe or as far as Ardgartan.

I don't believe it. I don't believe he was in the Arrochar Alps at all, and if he was they need to look for the body within about 20 miles of Edinburgh.
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Old 10th November 2018, 10:02 PM   #635
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I must say it is interesting to see an impossible plan work, and only fail because there is no possible alternate suspect.
I do realise this was not a plan for financial gain with elaborate planning, but this guy looks to have done uncommonly well.
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Old 11th November 2018, 06:10 AM   #636
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Yes, it's an interesting one. I first got interested because I'd read an article about miscarriage of justice pressure groups which pointed out that all the pressure groups in existence seem to believe pretty firmly that their subjects are factually innocent. Nobody seems to be going to bat for people who might possibly or even probably have done it but have been convicted despite the evidence not reaching the "beyond reasonable doubt" standard. I wondered if this was such a case. Probably did it, but how could they convict BRD under these circumstances? (Also the murder happened more or less on my doorstep.)

Then I looked at the evidence and decided I'd have voted guilty too if I'd been on the jury. I suspect he was labouring under the misapprehension that if the body was never found he couldn't be convicted no matter how suspicious his behaviour. Then my curiosity turned to, so where did he conceal her body and why are the police so sure she's somewhere in the Arrochar Alps? That makes no sense at all.

It's not so much that what he did was impossible as that it was a very difficult situation to get out of. He'd just strangled his girlfriend at 9 am in their place of work and he didn't even have his car with him. And yet he first hid the body while he went to get the car, then got it into the car and out of the city centre, and then managed to hide it where it has never been found.

He's not an idiot, that's for sure.
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Old 12th November 2018, 12:23 AM   #637
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I have stopped trying to work out why he went to Ardlui from Crianlarich as it makes trying to work this out more complicated. If we take into account that on the way back to Edinburgh he was determined to show that he went back via Crianlarich. (by switching his phone on at Ardlui he is confirming that he did just pass Crianlarich)

The options he had on the way back to Edinburgh ensuring he passed Crianlarich are:

A - Go to the RABT then double back to the junction of the A83/A819 and onto Crianlarich via the A819/A85 and Tyndrum.(this is what the police think he did)

B - Go to the RABT continue east to Tarbet then north to Crianlarich on his way back to Edinburgh. (the Tyndrum camera confirmed he did not do this)

C - Do not go to the RABT and go to Tyndrum via the A819/A85 and then on to Crianlarich and spend the extra 92 minutes near Glen Orchy/Glen Lochy. (this is what I think he did)

A takes 84 minutes, B takes 62 minutes and C takes 42 minutes.

A reduces his extra 92 minutes by at least 42 minutes (84 minus 42 =42) to (probably less than) 50 minutes for disposal time.

B reduces his extra 92 minutes by 20 minutes (62 minus 42 =20) to 72 minutes for disposal time.( minus

C gives him 92 minutes of disposal time.

The Green Welly camera confirmed that B did not happen so we are left with A which leaves him with less than 50 minutes for disposal or C where he has 92 minutes for disposal.

The Tyndrum camera.

There are two road cameras at Tyndrum, one faces north pointing towards the Green Welly and the other faces south pointing towards the Tyndrum Inn.

From the Traffic Scotland website https://trafficscotland.org/faq/#faq019

"Each live traffic camera image that appears on our website is captured from the video stream coming from the camera, as a static image, and held for approximately 5 minutes before being overwritten by the next image captured."

The image of Gilroy passing Tyndrum both times on the traffic cameras would be overwritten and would not be available to the police.

This is the street view of the Traffic Scotland cameras in Tyndrum (This image was taken in April 2011 but in March 2010 the cameras were not there so it is unknown if the cameras were there in May 2010)

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.43...7i13312!8i6656

Traffic Scotland website for A82 Tyndrum north and A82 Tyndrum south cameras.

https://trafficscotland.org/livetrafficcameras/

It is more likely the CCTV image that caught Gilroy came from the Green Welly here

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.43...7i13312!8i6656

It is unlikely that Gilroy would have known that the Green Welly camera was there and even if he did he could have assumed that the images of him passing twice would have been overwritten by the time the police got round to checking the CCTV at the Green Welly.

Gilroy could have easily found out that the traffic camera images get overwritten after 5 minutes.

So I dont think he went to Tyndrum on the way back to Edinburgh to purposely get caught on CCTV and I dont think he went to the RABT area in the evening losing at least 42 minutes (although I still think he went to the RABT for a reccy in the afternoon then decided not to return there in the evening) which means the disposal site is somewhere in the Glen Orchy/Glen Lochy area.

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Old 12th November 2018, 07:49 AM   #638
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1. Why do you think he went to the Rest and Be Thankful in the afternoon? I don't mean, what do you think his reason was for going there, I mean, what makes you think he went there at all? Other than that the police think he did?

My thesis is that the police are mistaken, and he didn't do that at all.

2. His detour south on the A82 from Crianlarich is the only thing we know for sure he did that can't be explained. I think if we knew why he did this we'd be a lot further forward. I think it's key.

I have only two rational suggestions. One is that he intended to leave a mobile phone connection trace that would imply he had come over the Rest and Be Thankful from Inveraray to Tarbet but for some inexplicable reason switched the phone on too early. The other is that he was playing random mind games with the police.

If he did go into the Rest and Be Thankful either time, and if his motivation in driving down the A82 in the evening was to play mind games with the police, I think the body is near Edinburgh.
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Old 12th November 2018, 07:56 AM   #639
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"Two disposal areas just double the chance something is going to be found."

Assuming there is one disposal site for the body and everything else in the boot then he has to decide whether to -

A - dump everything in his boot on the way to Inveraray.

B - dump the body on the way to Inveraray and keep everything else in the boot until he has finished at Lochgilphead school and then return to the same disposal site in the evening to dump everything else.

C - keep everything in the boot and arrive at Lochgilphead school with it all.

In scenario A I dont think he could have resisted returning to the disposal site in the evening to check everything was how he left it in the afternoon.

In scenario B he has to return to the same disposal site to get rid of everything else in the evening but he is taking a big risk by not clearing everything from his car boot.

Can you imagine if Lochgilphead police turned up at Lochgilphead school and asked to see in his car boot and found a spade and muddied overalls.(or even a dead body)

I think he opted for A as if the police did turn up at Lochgilphead school he would have been able to open his car boot and say "I told you officer - theres nothing in there"

Option C is just madness and option B is riskier than A.

I assume he went for option A and he could not have resisted returning to the disposal site in the evening.

He may have underestimated how many bags he needed when unloading everything on the way to Inveraray and thought to himself that he could not leave some things just lying out in the open.

He collected more bags from Lochgilphead school.

He returned to the disposal site and gathered all the other stuff, bagged it and disposed of everything at the body disposal site.

Assuming he did take option A the detour to the RABT area twice takes up too much of his disposal time.

He possibly went there once for misdirection as hanging about the RABT car park area is just asking to get noticed on a sunny day in May.

This adds more weight to the theory that the disposal site is near Glen Lochy/Glen Orchy.

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Old 12th November 2018, 08:57 AM   #640
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"1. Why do you think he went to the Rest and Be Thankful in the afternoon? I don't mean, for what reason do you imagine he went there, I mean, what makes you think he went there at all? Other than that the police think he did?"

I dont think he went off road near the RABT, he just went there (only in the afternoon not in the evening) to misdirect the police into thinking that the RABT area is the disposal site and to deflect attention from elsewhere.

The police must have decided that the witness sightings were accurate enough to justify spending so much time and money searching the RABT area.

A witness could have photographic evidence of him at the RABT or he could have interacted with someone (possibly at the snack van if it was parked at the RABT that day) or he acted strangely enough to draw attention to himself.

If he was spotted in the RABT area it would be more than likely it was when he was parked up and not whilst he was driving.

Why park in area known to be frequented with lots of tourists if he is trying to stay off the radar ?

If the disposal site was in the RABT area he would not have wanted to get seen. He would have quickly got to the disposal site, dumped everything and got back to Inveraray without stopping as this means less chance of getting spotted and uses less of the extra time he had.

So I think he went off road somewhere near to Glen Orchy/Glen Lochy, dumped everything, went to the RABT area for misdirection, went to Lochgilphead school, returned to the Glen Orchy/Glen Orchy area and completed the disposal.

The RABT detour does reduce his disposal time on the outward journey by about an hour but he knew he was going back to the Glen Orchy/Glen Lochy area on the way back and he allocated an hour and a half to complete the disposal there.

The soil type in the RABT area matched the soil on his car which would be an unfortunate (but possible) coincidence for the police to have spent all that time and money on the search in the RABT area thinking the soil was collected in the RABT area when the same soil type was collected elsewhere.

The police must have had some doubts about the RABT area as a disposal site as they checked elsewhere along his route from Tyndrum to Inveraray but the amount of time and money the police spent searching the RABT area indicates to me the police had some solid evidence from witnesses that he was actually in the RABT area at some point that day.

He could have been playing mind games with the police by purposely getting seen at the RABT area then denying that he went there.

He gave the police the Ardlui phone clue to enable the police to work out his route from Inveraray to Ardlui and therefore they could work out that he spent an hour and 32 minutes more than necessary driving from Inveraray to Ardlui. He would know the police would realise that he had enough time to go to the RABT area and double back to the junction of the A83/A819 from the RABT. (rather than continue on the A83 to Tarbet.)

He would then hope the police would accuse him of being in the RABT area and he could (overly) insist he was not, prompting the police to think he was actually there and in addition to the witness sightings/photographs/interactions and the soil types matching the police then assumed the RABT area was the disposal site.

Possibly some over thinking being done in this post but it makes some sense to me.

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