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Tags Kentucky incidents , school shootings , shooting incidents

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Old 18th May 2018, 01:32 PM   #321
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Latest report I read said shotgun and pistol. Earlier reports said an additional AR-15.

Some confusion reigns.

I don't know how you kill 10 and wound another bunch without something that has a high capacity magazine or a fast reload capability, but maybe the kid was just very, very good at it. I guess we'll find out sooner or later.
Combat shotguns like the Saiga-12WP are easily to mistake for assault weapons.

Last edited by Kestrel; 18th May 2018 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 18th May 2018, 01:35 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
It's unbelievable. Maybe someone should start one,........
I did. Here.
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Old 18th May 2018, 01:40 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Well they're in big time trouble then. Active cell phone blockers are illegal at the federal level. Passive ones are just building really thick walls.

https://www.fcc.gov/general/jamming-...nt-against-law

The school district and city may as well declare bankruptcy now from the lawsuits if it delayed help getting in.
I read somewhere that the school system basically has it's own police force?
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Old 18th May 2018, 01:41 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Combat shotguns like the Saiga-12WP are easily to mistake for assault weapons.
Many reports called it a sawed off shotgun. But a shotgun like the Saiga isn't sawn off - it just has a very short barrel. Maybe you call that an assault style shotgun.
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Old 18th May 2018, 01:53 PM   #325
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Apparently a Neo-Nazi sort, plenty of racist images on his instagram, and he posted to the account during the killing spree.
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Old 18th May 2018, 01:56 PM   #326
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I read something about him loving Russia. Is that a Nazi thing?
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Old 18th May 2018, 02:00 PM   #327
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Daily Mail is saying that one of the ten dead is a teacher. Also saying that two other students have been detained, not just one other.
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Old 18th May 2018, 02:09 PM   #328
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What is the driving force of kids like this and Nikolas Cruz? Is it really white supremacy or Nazism, or is it really just a desire to kill a bunch of people and then they seek to self-label themselves as something associated with mass killing?

If you simply want to slaughter on a mass scale you might link up with white power or Nazis just because you think you will find others there who also desire to kill many at once.
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Old 18th May 2018, 02:14 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I read something about him loving Russia. Is that a Nazi thing?
For many current American Nazi-lovers, yes.
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Old 18th May 2018, 02:22 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Well they're in big time trouble then. Active cell phone blockers are illegal at the federal level. Passive ones are just building really thick walls.

https://www.fcc.gov/general/jamming-...nt-against-law

The school district and city may as well declare bankruptcy now from the lawsuits if it delayed help getting in.
Cell phone blockers don't have to be active.
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Old 18th May 2018, 02:24 PM   #331
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Dimitrios Pagourtzis, Nazi, Killed 10, Taken Alive

Nick Cruz, Nazi, Killed 17, Taken Alive

Travis Reinking, Nazi, Killed 4, Taken Alive

Stephon Clark, Black, On Cell phone at home, Shot 20x
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Old 18th May 2018, 04:01 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
For many current American Nazi-lovers, yes.
This kid was attracted to Nazism and Communism. Why not Fascism? Why don't the American Nazis go for Fascism?

Students are saying that he wore a black trench coat and black boots to school every day.
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Old 18th May 2018, 04:07 PM   #333
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Nick Cruz was attracted to white supremacy and then he shot up a bunch of white schoolkids. WTF?

This kid is attracted to Nazis and Communists. I guess we'll see who he shot up.

I'm trying to seek associative patterns.
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Old 18th May 2018, 08:22 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Combat shotguns like the Saiga-12WP are easily to mistake for assault weapons.
They are built on a modified AK47 action and come in various barrel lengths.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga-12
The Russian company that exports them to the USA was prohibited from doing so for political reasons after annexation of the Crimea.

Personally I have a low opinion of the Saiga 12. I've yet to see one that made it through a single 20-30 round magazine without a malfunction. I watched several people compete with them at a matches; they're never a winner although this is more to do with the shooter than the gun.

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Many reports called it a sawed off shotgun. But a shotgun like the Saiga isn't sawn off - it just has a very short barrel. Maybe you call that an assault style shotgun.
As far as I know the Saiga's imported to the USA have 18-23 inch barrels. I've seen a few that were legally chopped down to <18".

Last edited by Ranb; 18th May 2018 at 08:24 PM.
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Old 18th May 2018, 08:47 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Apparently a Neo-Nazi sort, plenty of racist images on his instagram, and he posted to the account during the killing spree.
He had a Facebook page as well which was taken down very soon after the event, as usual. And as usual, Facebook has been rapidly deleting fake Facebook pages that continue to emerge dressing him as a Clinton supporter and "antifa" member.
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Old 18th May 2018, 09:07 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
They are built on a modified AK47 action and come in various barrel lengths.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga-12
The Russian company that exports them to the USA was prohibited from doing so for political reasons after annexation of the Crimea.

Personally I have a low opinion of the Saiga 12. I've yet to see one that made it through a single 20-30 round magazine without a malfunction. I watched several people compete with them at a matches; they're never a winner although this is more to do with the shooter than the gun.


As far as I know the Saiga's imported to the USA have 18-23 inch barrels. I've seen a few that were legally chopped down to <18".
A student who saw him shooting said he pumped it between shots so it seems to be a pump action rather than semi-auto. Maybe it really is sawed off too.

A hospital doctor said he was using buckshot at close range and some of the injured are really messed up.

This isn't typical weaponry for mass school shooters. It's not been reported if he used the revolver at all. Maybe he could have killed many more. He said he was only shooting people he didn't like.

Recent reports saying two teachers are dead, not just one.
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Old 18th May 2018, 11:29 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Dimitrios Pagourtzis, Nazi, Killed 10, Taken Alive

Nick Cruz, Nazi, Killed 17, Taken Alive

Travis Reinking, Nazi, Killed 4, Taken Alive

Stephon Clark, Black, On Cell phone at home, Shot 20x
Daniel Shaver, unarmed white guy, shot and killed in a hotel hallway while begging the cop for his life. Cop must have thought he was black.
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Old 19th May 2018, 12:18 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Daniel Shaver, unarmed white guy, shot and killed in a hotel hallway while begging the cop for his life. Cop must have thought he was black.
Not often I agree with mgidm86 but he is right this time. Although it happens proportionately more to black people the problem with police in the USA isn't solely a racial one, it is a cops vs society one and if a cop feels even mildly distressed by a civilians actions whatever their colour you have the chance of a fatal outcome.

As to this shooter, does it matter if he was Nazi, Communist or Monster Raving Loony Party in his motivations? He clearly was someone who shouldn't be getting easy access to firearms yet here we are again.
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Old 19th May 2018, 12:48 AM   #339
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Do these sort of things ever happen at the sort of schools that senators and congressmen sent their own kids to?
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Old 19th May 2018, 01:20 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
They are built on a modified AK47 action and come in various barrel lengths.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga-12
The Russian company that exports them to the USA was prohibited from doing so for political reasons after annexation of the Crimea.

Personally I have a low opinion of the Saiga 12. I've yet to see one that made it through a single 20-30 round magazine without a malfunction. I watched several people compete with them at a matches; they're never a winner although this is more to do with the shooter than the gun.


As far as I know the Saiga's imported to the USA have 18-23 inch barrels. I've seen a few that were legally chopped down to <18".
Has this anything to do with the terrible tragedy of students being killed by a fellow student?
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Old 19th May 2018, 01:22 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
Not often I agree with mgidm86 but he is right this time. Although it happens proportionately more to black people the problem with police in the USA isn't solely a racial one, it is a cops vs society one and if a cop feels even mildly distressed by a civilians actions whatever their colour you have the chance of a fatal outcome.

As to this shooter, does it matter if he was Nazi, Communist or Monster Raving Loony Party in his motivations? He clearly was someone who shouldn't be getting easy access to firearms yet here we are again.
Sadly for some it does seem to matter, everything has to be ascribed as either "for" or "against" their "side" so they can use the event as a weapon to win the fight.
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Old 19th May 2018, 01:28 AM   #342
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Another mass shooting in the US, means another 10 pages on these threads, means another nothing changes
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Old 19th May 2018, 02:03 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Another mass shooting in the US, means another 10 pages on these threads, means another nothing changes
And the Onion wheels out the most insightful analysis - yet again.
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Old 19th May 2018, 02:15 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Has this anything to do with the terrible tragedy of students being killed by a fellow student?
Yes, everything to do with it.
Gun worship.
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Old 19th May 2018, 02:23 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And the Onion wheels out the most insightful analysis - yet again.
No skin off my nose

I don't have to live in the mass shootsville of the world
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Old 19th May 2018, 02:33 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Yes, everything to do with it.
Gun worship.
Hobbyists also tend to be all other the most irrelevant - to the rest of us - details.
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Old 19th May 2018, 06:11 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
As to this shooter, does it matter if he was Nazi, Communist or Monster Raving Loony Party in his motivations? He clearly was someone who shouldn't be getting easy access to firearms yet here we are again.
Right now the media is full of authorities saying that he did not exhibit any signs of coming disaster. The red flags were not flying. They are comparing him to Cruz who did show signs including talk of being a school shooter.

The FBI and local authorities blew it with Cruz, but that can't be said with this kid. The point is that it's not clear until after the event but you can't put that to represent a clarity before the event.
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Old 19th May 2018, 06:24 AM   #348
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Today's mass shooting is a copycat of numerous other mass shootings.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...-finds-n386141

"Police have said so for years and now scientists have measured the effect: Mass shootings and school attacks do inspire copycats.

As many as 20 to 30 percent of attacks are set off by other attacks, according to researchers at Arizona State University and Northeastern Illinois University."
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Old 19th May 2018, 06:35 AM   #349
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What mass shooting? Right now the whole world is all about Meghan's Royal Wedding.
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Old 19th May 2018, 06:37 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
They are built on a modified AK47 action and come in various barrel lengths.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga-12
The Russian company that exports them to the USA was prohibited from doing so for political reasons after annexation of the Crimea.

Personally I have a low opinion of the Saiga 12. I've yet to see one that made it through a single 20-30 round magazine without a malfunction. I watched several people compete with them at a matches; they're never a winner although this is more to do with the shooter than the gun.


As far as I know the Saiga's imported to the USA have 18-23 inch barrels. I've seen a few that were legally chopped down to <18".
Out appears to have been sufficiently reliable in this case.
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Old 19th May 2018, 07:52 AM   #351
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More mass shootings = more desensitisation = more mass shootings = more copy cat = more mass shootings = more resistance by the pro gun lobby = more mass shootings.

There is nothing going on to suggest there were will be a fall in mass shootings and if anything, the situation now is likely to result in even more mass shootings.
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Old 19th May 2018, 11:14 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
= more copy cat =
If they copy this kid they will make sure not to give any indications that they are going to hurt anyone, have no criminal record or behavior problems, and make the school honor roll. Get your weapons by taking them from someone. Go retro with your guns like a 1960s mass shooter using a pump-action shotgun and a revolver. The world will be expecting semi-automatic with big capacity magazines - but no, not now. And see if you can do more than just ten.
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Old 19th May 2018, 01:56 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Today's mass shooting is a copycat of numerous other mass shootings.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...-finds-n386141

"Police have said so for years and now scientists have measured the effect: Mass shootings and school attacks do inspire copycats.

As many as 20 to 30 percent of attacks are set off by other attacks, according to researchers at Arizona State University and Northeastern Illinois University."
That seems ridiculously obvious but I guess we have the expert opinion now. Some of the shooters own words and actions made that obvious to me. What did the Parkland shooter say once - he wanted to be a professional school shooter? HellOOOOOO.....

Problem: this kid one-upped the last shooter by making bombs - pressure cookers and Molotovs I believe? One pressure cooker could kill as many students as he and his guns did. Now what?

What inspired that idea? The Boston Bombers, one of which was coincidentally featured on the cover of Rolling Stone Magazine like a gawdamn rock star.

The last kid used an AR, this kid decided to go with a shotgun and pistol under a trench coat. He planned it in advance and brought weapons he could conceal.

Today his picture is on the front page of every stupid media site in the country - I guarantee this inspires another one.

These kids are starting to use bombs now. Guns may be a problem but it definitely is not THE problem with these kids, not by a long shot.

ETA:
Again, I'd like to know how many of these kids are on prescription meds. Are these the same kids that used to hang themselves in their bedrooms but are now shooting up schools instead? These "nobodys" are somebody for a few days while they grace the covers of magazines, why not go out like that?
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Old 19th May 2018, 02:09 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
That seems ridiculously obvious but I guess we have the expert opinion now. Some of the shooters own words and actions made that obvious to me. What did the Parkland shooter say once - he wanted to be a professional school shooter? HellOOOOOO.....

Problem: this kid one-upped the last shooter by making bombs - pressure cookers and Molotovs I believe? One pressure cooker could kill as many students as he and his guns did. Now what?

What inspired that idea? The Boston Bombers, one of which was coincidentally featured on the cover of Rolling Stone Magazine like a gawdamn rock star.

The last kid used an AR, this kid decided to go with a shotgun and pistol under a trench coat. He planned it in advance and brought weapons he could conceal.

Today his picture is on the front page of every stupid media site in the country - I guarantee this inspires another one.

These kids are starting to use bombs now. Guns may be a problem but it definitely is not THE problem with these kids, not by a long shot.

ETA:
Again, I'd like to know how many of these kids are on prescription meds. Are these the same kids that used to hang themselves in their bedrooms but are now shooting up schools instead? These "nobodys" are somebody for a few days while they grace the covers of magazines, why not go out like that?
Of course there's a monkey-see, monkey-do effect, but easy access to guns is fertile ground to nurture violent fantasies.

Also, and this has been mentioned before, it's not easy to build a bomb. How many people were killed by these bombs? None. How many students in Columbine were murdered by bombs? None. The Parkland kid killed twice as many people as the Unabomber (and seven times as many as the Boston Bombers). Of course, does the right to keep and bear arms mean that companies should be allowed to manufacture explosive devices in order to -- you know -- keep the government in check. Explosives were far more important to the Iraqi insurgency than small-arms fire. Yeah, whatever.
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Old 19th May 2018, 07:23 PM   #355
Kestrel
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Has this anything to do with the terrible tragedy of students being killed by a fellow student?
I made a comment that some shotguns look similar to assault weapons. If the shooter used one of those shotguns it might explain eyewitnesses saying he had an AR-15.

The Sandy Hook conspiracy theory grew out of that mistake. A Saiga 12 was found in the trunk of the shooter’s car that some misidentified as a Bushmaster assault rifle. This was presented as proof that officials were lying. The shooter could not have used a Bushmaster because it was still in the trunk. Leading the gullible down a conspiracy theory rabbit hole.
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Old 19th May 2018, 09:17 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
These kids are starting to use bombs now. Guns may be a problem but it definitely is not THE problem with these kids, not by a long shot.
If kids want to use bombs instead of guns, then that's a good thing. Bombs are much harder to get right.

Guns make it easy, bombs make it hard.
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Old 19th May 2018, 09:27 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
I made a comment that some shotguns look similar to assault weapons. If the shooter used one of those shotguns it might explain eyewitnesses saying he had an AR-15.

The Sandy Hook conspiracy theory grew out of that mistake. A Saiga 12 was found in the trunk of the shooter’s car that some misidentified as a Bushmaster assault rifle. This was presented as proof that officials were lying. The shooter could not have used a Bushmaster because it was still in the trunk. Leading the gullible down a conspiracy theory rabbit hole.
Functionally an assault gun is one that is optimised for shooting at a bunch people at relatively close range. A rapid fire shotgun is apparently just as good at that as a relatively short barrel semi auto rifle.
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Old 19th May 2018, 10:17 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Has this anything to do with the terrible tragedy of students being killed by a fellow student?
Nothing. But it has everything to do with the post I was replying to. Keep grinding that axe and you'll have to find something else to bitch about.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Yes, everything to do with it.
Gun worship.
You should stop worshiping the gun.

BBC has more details.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44186989
Quote:
The gun battle went on for about 15 minutes before Mr Pagourtzis gave himself up, abandoning a plan to take his own life, the New York Times reported.

Police now say that eight students and two teachers were killed, with 13 people wounded in the attack, including one of the school's policemen who is in critical condition.
Quote:
The affidavit also said Mr Pagourtzis was wearing a trench coat and had a Remington 870 shotgun and a .38 calibre pistol.

Last edited by Ranb; 19th May 2018 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 20th May 2018, 01:58 AM   #359
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Finland has also had mass school shootings and threats of shootings,

https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral....471-244X-12-91

"Two school shootings with altogether 18 victims took place in Finland in November 2007 and September 2008. Homicides and suicides are both associated with the copycat phenomenon. The aim of the present study was to characterize adolescent copycats who had threatened to carry out a school massacre"
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Old 21st May 2018, 03:16 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Apparently a Neo-Nazi sort, plenty of racist images on his instagram, and he posted to the account during the killing spree.
Yea but as he focused on killing the girl he as stalking and she refused to go out with him I expect she will get all the blame. If she had just screwed his creepy racist ass this wouldn't have happened.
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