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Old 8th November 2018, 05:55 AM   #1241
Delvo
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Last night I heard Hannity for a couple of minutes. He was reciting Trump's claim that Trump campaigning caused Republican wins and the lack of Trump campaigning caused Republican losses. It reminds me of what David Horowitz said about his father, who was a big Stalin fan. Stalin had given himself eight official-sounding titles, and when he died, those titles went to eight other guys, and the elder Horowitz exclaimed how that was proof of what a great man Stalin had been, because it took eight men to replace him.

What really matters to these people now isn't even how their party does. It's how their Dear Leader does. Party failures don't concern them as long as they can come up with a way to separate the failures from the Dear Leader.
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Old 8th November 2018, 06:26 AM   #1242
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And the further bad news is that it will stay that way so long as right leaning politicians in power in right leaning states do everything they can to discourage and/or prevent people from voting.

If everyone in America had fair opportunity to vote (as we do in this country) and it was made easy for everyone to vote (also, as we do in this country) then your voter turnout would routinely hit 75%+ (like ours does)*. But the right knows what side their bread is buttered on; they will never allow this to happen because they know that the high turnout would put them in an almost permanent minority. Therefore, they will continue to gerrymander boundaries to their favour, and target those groups of people who are likely Democrat voters to put obstacles between them and the ballot box.


* NZ election turnout in MMP Era

1996 - 88.3%
1999 - 84.1%
2002 - 77.0%
2005 - 80.9%
2008 - 78.7%
2011 - 74.2%
2014 - 77.9%
2017 - 79.8%
I think low voter turnout has much more to do with voter apathy than any surpression.

One example

In California it was 37% according to the state site. I really don't know the rules there but I doubt if "right leaning politicians in power" had much to do with it.
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Old 8th November 2018, 06:47 AM   #1243
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
It is scary that those are considered immoderate/radical policy positions.

I received multiple campaign flyers in the mail that described single-payer health care as a "radical Socialist agenda." I guess something needs to be done about all of those radical Socialist senior citizens.
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Old 8th November 2018, 07:00 AM   #1244
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
I think low voter turnout has much more to do with voter apathy than any surpression.
Suppression's that bad, eh?
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Old 8th November 2018, 07:53 AM   #1245
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Suppression's that bad, eh?
It's worse than that. As Trump established, California has millions of illegal aliens voting, and they're included in that 37%, so apparently the actual legal voting in California was just me and a couple people ahead of me in line at the poll.
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Old 8th November 2018, 08:52 AM   #1246
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
I think low voter turnout has much more to do with voter apathy than any surpression.

One example

In California it was 37% according to the state site. I really don't know the rules there but I doubt if "right leaning politicians in power" had much to do with it.
looking at the lines of voters. it seems to me that it's quite difficult to vote in many parts of the US.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:14 AM   #1247
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
looking at the lines of voters. it seems to me that it's quite difficult to vote in many parts of the US.
But those are selective pictures. I think in general it is a quick experience. But with probably thousands of polling places there are always some problems and those are the pictures you see.
Such as long lines in NYC this year.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:19 AM   #1248
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I'm actually sort of annoyed because I can find hundreds of articles "Will wait times at the polls be longer in 2018?" and "Why it may take you longer to vote this year" and variations therefore but now two days after the election I'm trying to find if anyone even made an attempt at a rough ballpark guess of what the average wait time at the polls was on Tuesdays and... nothing.

I hate it when the Press stops caring about things after they can no longer just run outrage porn about it.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:30 AM   #1249
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
But those are selective pictures. I think in general it is a quick experience. But with probably thousands of polling places there are always some problems and those are the pictures you see.
Such as long lines in NYC this year.
I know this is anecdotal, but In my case, there were 2 people ahead of me in line, and it turned out that one of them was in the wrong line. My total wait was maybe 3 minutes. There were three "tables" at my precinct, and the woman behind me noted that we were in the longest line. Though, in retrospect, that was partly because one of the people ahead of me was in the wrong line.

They were doing a fairly brisk business, though. Of about 10 voting booths for my "table," only 2 weren't being used when I got my ballot.

I was there around 8AM, so I was probably there during the morning rush, but the real peak was probably after 5PM.

Over the years, I've voted roughly 25 times in California, and this was a pretty typical voting experience for me.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:36 AM   #1250
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
I know this is anecdotal, but In my case, there were 2 people ahead of me in line, and it turned out that one of them was in the wrong line. My total wait was maybe 3 minutes. There were three "tables" at my precinct, and the woman behind me noted that we were in the longest line. Though, in retrospect, that was partly because one of the people ahead of me was in the wrong line.

They were doing a fairly brisk business, though. Of about 10 voting booths for my "table," only 2 weren't being used when I got my ballot.

I was there around 8AM, so I was probably there during the morning rush, but the real peak was probably after 5PM.

Over the years, I've voted roughly 25 times in California, and this was a pretty typical voting experience for me.
Whereas I typically have an hour wait of more. This year was my quickest, in-and-out in about 30 minutes, but that's because I took the day off work and voted during the day, instead of hitting it after work during the rush.

It's extremely inconsistent base don where you are. Some areas seem to be doing things right, but many aren't. I suspect a lot of that is because there's so much left to local control.

I'd love to see some sort of national election commission that would be tasked to set standards for these things. leave enough leeway to allow states and local areas choice in how they go about it, but provide standards for things like number of polling places per unit of population, acceptable security standards and inspections for voting machines or electronic voting, and similar. Heck, even federal funding for poorer districts to help bring them up-to-code.

Of course, no idea how to keep that from being horribly politicized, as well.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:39 AM   #1251
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm actually sort of annoyed because I can find hundreds of articles "Will wait times at the polls be longer in 2018?" and "Why it may take you longer to vote this year" and variations therefore but now two days after the election I'm trying to find if anyone even made an attempt at a rough ballpark guess of what the average wait time at the polls was on Tuesdays and... nothing.

I hate it when the Press stops caring about things after they can no longer just run outrage porn about it.
Reports are that metro Atlanta had 3 hour wait times.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...watchdog-group
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:48 AM   #1252
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
I think low voter turnout has much more to do with voter apathy than any surpression.

One example

In California it was 37% according to the state site. I really don't know the rules there but I doubt if "right leaning politicians in power" had much to do with it.
Its certainly possible that apathy has something to do with it. (Especially for voters in solid-republican or solid-democrat states, who may decide to say home if they think the results won't change the end result.)

The solution to that: Make the president elected by popular vote. That way, a voter in Texas or California won't feel their votes are irrelevant because "My state is solid republican/democrat". The Republicans would never go for that though, because they would have lost 2 of their 3 presidential victories.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:52 AM   #1253
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The solution to that: Make the president elected by popular vote. That way, a voter in Texas or California won't feel their votes are irrelevant because "My state is solid republican/democrat". The Republicans would never go for that though, because they would have lost 2 of their 3 presidential victories.
Yeah but like gerrymandering and first past the post elections... that's never gonna happen, at least on any timeframe we're discussing here.

Nobody, even on the "losing" side of politics has any reason to try and upset this apple cart because it's the only way they now how to win when they do win. And the mythology of those things, the electoral college especially, is too ingrained. Most people still think it is necessary to "save them from the big states and the cities."

And even then we'll never be able to fix anything because every election is "da most important one evar" so we can't try out anything new this time, maybe next, and next never comes because the next time is "da most important one evar" too.
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:08 AM   #1254
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Looks like Georgia and Florida are heading for recounts. Kenp has already resigned as Secretary, so he will no longer be overseeing his own election. A bit late, but better than never.
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:19 AM   #1255
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
"Juvenile court judge" being accurate on several levels evidently.
Two.
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:20 AM   #1256
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Wow Florida you are just are not happy unless you're causing a recount every election.
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:24 AM   #1257
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Last night I heard Hannity for a couple of minutes. He was reciting Trump's claim that Trump campaigning caused Republican wins and the lack of Trump campaigning caused Republican losses. It reminds me of what David Horowitz said about his father, who was a big Stalin fan. Stalin had given himself eight official-sounding titles, and when he died, those titles went to eight other guys, and the elder Horowitz exclaimed how that was proof of what a great man Stalin had been, because it took eight men to replace him.

What really matters to these people now isn't even how their party does. It's how their Dear Leader does. Party failures don't concern them as long as they can come up with a way to separate the failures from the Dear Leader.
Rachel Maddow had a somewhat more informative segment. Trump got involved early in GOP primaries, such as in Nevada where he pressured Danny Tarkanian not to primary the incumbent Senator, butt-kisser Dean Heller, whom Trump endorsed as being vital to his MAGA agenda. Fortunately Heller lost the seat by 5 points to Jacky Rosen, who had given up her seat in the House to run. Trump convinced Tarkanian to run for that seat, and endorsed him heavily, but he lost by 9 points to Susie Lee.

Trump also got involved in South Carolina primaries, attacking incumbent Mark Sanford for insufficient Trump butt-kissing and heavily endorsing challenger Katie Arrington, who won the primary but went on to lose that House seat to Joe Cunningham by a 1-point upset.

Trump also waded into the Kansas governor primary, endorsing trumpiest trumper and vote-suppression expert Kris Kobach over a conventional conservative. Trump campaigned for Kobach, who lost by 5 points to Laura Kelly. Anti-Kobach turnout may have also cost the GOP another flipped House seat, with Kevin Yoder losing to Sharice Davids.

Maddow ran down many more cases where Trump's endorsements failed. I don't know the final numbers, but yesterday morning I read that only 12 of the 33 candidates that Trump endorsed had won. In the primaries, Trump's endorsements carried a lot of weight, but in the general, not so much.
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:26 AM   #1258
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Whereas I typically have an hour wait of more.
Ouch!

Quote:
It's extremely inconsistent base don where you are. Some areas seem to be doing things right, but many aren't. I suspect a lot of that is because there's so much left to local control.

I'd love to see some sort of national election commission that would be tasked to set standards for these things. leave enough leeway to allow states and local areas choice in how they go about it, but provide standards for things like number of polling places per unit of population, acceptable security standards and inspections for voting machines or electronic voting, and similar. Heck, even federal funding for poorer districts to help bring them up-to-code.
I'd like to see something like that, too. I'd like for there to be national standards (if there aren't already) so that people could sue the state/city/whatever for not meeting the national standards for wait times, accessibility, etc.

Quote:
Of course, no idea how to keep that from being horribly politicized, as well.
Yeah, I've gotten pretty discouraged about that.
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:28 AM   #1259
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I think, and no it's impossible to be sure about this, we maybe could sell to the American people that Federal Elections should be standardized by the Federal Government, but we aren't going to see in our lifetime the Federal Government being able to do much more than issue vague "outlines" for state and local elections.
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:30 AM   #1260
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
I'd like to see something like that, too. I'd like for there to be national standards (if there aren't already) so that people could sue the state/city/whatever for not meeting the national standards for wait times, accessibility, etc.
You know, that might actually increase voter turnout.

A class action lawsuit by people who had to wait in line for hours? The possibility of receiving money for having to do so? It may just draw more people in.
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:43 AM   #1261
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think, and no it's impossible to be sure about this, we maybe could sell to the American people that Federal Elections should be standardized by the Federal Government, but we aren't going to see in our lifetime the Federal Government being able to do much more than issue vague "outlines" for state and local elections.
Yeah, I know . . . <sigh> and as far as election reforms go, I'd probably consider that to be a lower priority than dropping the Electoral College.

And then getting most of the stuff on the ballot off the ballot.

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
You know, that might actually increase voter turnout.

A class action lawsuit by people who had to wait in line for hours? The possibility of receiving money for having to do so? It may just draw more people in.
Actually, I was thinking more like ACLU lawsuits to, for example, compel a county to open up more polling places. But your version is more fun.
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:53 AM   #1262
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I dunno, I could live with the electoral college, if it wasn't winner-takes-all. That would bring it in line with popular vote, and would solve most of the problems with it. Make the EC votes proportional to the in-state voting results, instead of all for the winner.

Of course, again, getting all the states to agree to that is likely insurmountable.
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Old 8th November 2018, 11:01 AM   #1263
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
Yeah, I know . . . <sigh> and as far as election reforms go, I'd probably consider that to be a lower priority than dropping the Electoral College.
Kill the Electoral College and the ridiculous mixed primary and caucus system spread out over months, and replace it with a nationwide ranked-choice primary -- no conventions necessary
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Old 8th November 2018, 12:42 PM   #1264
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
But those are selective pictures. I think in general it is a quick experience. But with probably thousands of polling places there are always some problems and those are the pictures you see.
Such as long lines in NYC this year.
Or having just one polling station for a whole town?
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Old 8th November 2018, 01:12 PM   #1265
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I could live with the Electoral College if it was the version the Constitution had set out, not the one States manipulated to maximize their power.
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Old 8th November 2018, 02:30 PM   #1266
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Hey, local election shenanigans!

Quote:
The outcome of two election races in McHenry County changed Thursday after Clerk Mary McClellan discovered the county's election website had not updated results with early voting numbers.

Updated results now revealed 14th Congressional candidate Lauren Underwood carried McHenry County over incumbent U.S. Rep. Randy Hultgren – and McHenry County Board District 5 candidate Carlos Acosta defeated incumbent Michael Rein.

Unofficial results without early voting totals marked victories for Republicans Hultgren and Rein and showed that 21 percent of the 116,000 McHenry County residents who cast votes in Tuesday’s midterm election did not pick a candidate for governor or other statewide offices on the ballot.

Asked how it could be possible that 1 in 5 voters decided not to vote in top-of-the-ticket races, McHenry County Clerk Mary McClellan said there were issues with the county's election reporting software that led to missing vote totals.

"We are looking at election reporting software," McClellan told the Northwest Herald. "It is not showing all the numbers for some reason."

State Rep. David McSweeney contacted the Illinois State Board of Election's general counsel Thursday to ask for an investigation of how the McHenry County Clerk's Office tallied votes. The board reached out to McClellan and learned that early voting numbers were not included on the county's website.

"It looks strange," McSweeney said. "I’m not making any accusations, but it raises a red flag.”

...

In a phone interview Thursday morning, McClellan said the gap isn’t that unusual.

...

McClellan pegged the missing votes to “bullet voting” or "undervoting" – the practice of voting in one race on the ballot despite the ability to vote in more.

“People do it all the time,” the clerk said.

In 2016, the Illinois State Board of Elections looked into problems that plagued that year’s primary.
Linky.

McClellan is a Republican, coincidentally.
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Old 8th November 2018, 02:38 PM   #1267
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Nationwide it looks like Medicaid expansion via referendum and Governorship won, as well as minimum wage increases, all in Red States. But also abortion measures for if Roe is overturned.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ml#dash-ballot
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Old 8th November 2018, 02:53 PM   #1268
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Republicans sue to halt count of some early ballots in McSally-Sinema race

Why are Republicans so ******* afraid of counting votes?
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Old 8th November 2018, 03:00 PM   #1269
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Nationwide it looks like Medicaid expansion via referendum and Governorship won, as well as minimum wage increases, all in Red States. But also abortion measures for if Roe is overturned.
Don't worry... we have it on good authority from Senator Collins that Supreme court Justice Drunky McRapeface is actually a super feminist and will be supportive of abortion rights for any cases that make it to the supreme court.
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Old 8th November 2018, 03:09 PM   #1270
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Justice Drunky McRapeface

Does Avenatti pay you to perpetuate his lies?
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Old 8th November 2018, 03:16 PM   #1271
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
Does Avenatti pay you to perpetuate his lies?
Anything on those Liberal tears yet?
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Old 8th November 2018, 04:37 PM   #1272
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Its certainly possible that apathy has something to do with it. (Especially for voters in solid-republican or solid-democrat states, who may decide to say home if they think the results won't change the end result.)

The solution to that: Make the president elected by popular vote. That way, a voter in Texas or California won't feel their votes are irrelevant because "My state is solid republican/democrat". The Republicans would never go for that though, because they would have lost 2 of their 3 presidential victories.
I agree, the problem is you need to amend the constitution to do that, and this not easy to do. Two thirds of both houses of congress, and then it needs to be ratified by 2/3 of the States.
There is another way of fixing the problem>The states have the power to decide how the electorial votes are distributed, so have the electorial votes divided up by what percentage of the popular votes ; if you get X% of the popular vote, you get a propotiional amont of the electorial votes. I would prefer going to a direct popular vote, but that ain;t gonna happen anytime soon. You would never get it approved by the smaller population states which have more power under the electorial system.
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Old 8th November 2018, 04:42 PM   #1273
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Old 8th November 2018, 04:42 PM   #1274
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
I dunno, I could live with the electoral college, if it wasn't winner-takes-all. That would bring it in line with popular vote, and would solve most of the problems with it. Make the EC votes proportional to the in-state voting results, instead of all for the winner.

Of course, again, getting all the states to agree to that is likely insurmountable.
Not as insourmuntable as amending the constitution, though.
Winner take all is NOT in the Constitution. That is just how,traditionally, it has been done. States have the power to determine how their electorial votes are distributed, and at least one state does what you suggest..make it proportional.
You don't need to get all the states to agree, each state can do what it wants with how it's E.C. votes are distributed.
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Old 8th November 2018, 05:37 PM   #1275
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
Does Avenatti pay you to perpetuate his lies?
I'd do it for free as long as his lies stuck. No question of honor applies to Trump or his supporters. If it hurts Trump and it's legal, the ends justify the means. Any slander, any lie, any dirty trick, any act of base immorality is fine as long as it works.
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Old 8th November 2018, 05:56 PM   #1276
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Republicans sue to halt count of some early ballots in McSally-Sinema race

Why are Republicans so ******* afraid of counting votes?

That was only when their candidate was ahead. When she fell behind the Dem candidate they did a 180 and now they want more votes counted.
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Old 8th November 2018, 06:25 PM   #1277
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
I dunno, I could live with the electoral college, if it wasn't winner-takes-all. That would bring it in line with popular vote, and would solve most of the problems with it. Make the EC votes proportional to the in-state voting results, instead of all for the winner.

Of course, again, getting all the states to agree to that is likely insurmountable.
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Not as insourmuntable as amending the constitution, though.
Winner take all is NOT in the Constitution. That is just how,traditionally, it has been done. States have the power to determine how their electorial votes are distributed, and at least one state does what you suggest..make it proportional.
You don't need to get all the states to agree, each state can do what it wants with how it's E.C. votes are distributed.
I've long advocated something like they do in Nebraska and Vermont(??) -- two votes at large and one per congressional district. But we'd need to fix gerrymandering first.
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Old 8th November 2018, 06:53 PM   #1278
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
My biggest fear is that people who voted this Midterm for first time, (or for the first time in a long time) will be re-affirmed in their belief that voting doesn't change anything.
Hopefully they're paying attention to how different races are evolving as every vote is counted. Waiting for official results takes time and it's proving that voting matters.
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Old 8th November 2018, 06:56 PM   #1279
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I've long advocated something like they do in Nebraska and Vermont(??) -- two votes at large and one per congressional district. But we'd need to fix gerrymandering first.

That would be one of the advantages of allocating each state's Electoral votes in proportion to the state's popular vote, it would wipe out the gerrymander advantage.
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Old 8th November 2018, 07:37 PM   #1280
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
That would be one of the advantages of allocating each state's Electoral votes in proportion to the state's popular vote, it would wipe out the gerrymander advantage.
I see this approach as less likely than the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact, where a group of states consisting of a majority of the electoral votes agree to give their votes to whoever win the national popular vote (which is still unlikely). The states that are competitive won't want to give up all the attention they get as big prize swing states. The states that aren't competitive won't want to give up their solid blocks to their favored parties.

Besides that, each state allocating their votes would still would be unequal, and you could still have minority elected Presidents.
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