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Old 31st August 2018, 09:35 PM   #281
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
A good upbringing, I am sure.
My parents were more liberal perhaps. I was raised not to presume that I knew how someone else would feel about something, just tell the truth and don't call other people names.
I don't know about that. But I was taught to be courteous. Please and thank you and opening doors for others. Females are Miss or Mam and Sir for males , a group of males of almost any age are "gentlemen" and females are "ladies".. I don't presume I know how people will feel but giving respect garners respect.
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Old 31st August 2018, 10:01 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Me either. America's racial politics are weird.

However, even I know De Santis is being racist that's how obvious it is.
I’m less inclined to see the use as “obvious.” It would be interesting to know, for instance, if the term is part of the candidate’s vocabulary. If so, then the likelihood it’s his catch-all, polite-company way of saying screw up (which we know is the now-accepted way of suggesting the F word). If “monkey up” is not a regular figure of speech by the man, it would add weight to the possibility he got a bit, well, racy.
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Old 1st September 2018, 12:54 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Then you're clueless. A man of color can use the 'N' word. We can't. A father can call his son 'boy'. A white man can refer to young white child boy and frankly they better be like under say 8. I'm not even sure I would do that. Me, I prefer the term 'son' or 'young man'. Boy isn't even a term most youngsters of any color would appreciate being called. And I assure you someone of color certainly wouldn't like it from a Caucasian.

If nothing else, it's about respecting others.
Sweet Jeebus, you certainly are the sensitive soul, if you think a black male under the age of about 13 cannot be referred to as a boy. It is certainly racist to refer to an adult black male as boy, and that's where the offense lies. And a lot of men in their 20s and 30s seem to use the term "son" as a term of derision; better be careful.
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Old 1st September 2018, 02:57 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Sweet Jeebus, you certainly are the sensitive soul, if you think a black male under the age of about 13 cannot be referred to as a boy. It is certainly racist to refer to an adult black male as boy, and that's where the offense lies. And a lot of men in their 20s and 30s seem to use the term "son" as a term of derision; better be careful.
Even with kids, it can be racist if you you refer to the kid himself as "boy" in the context of shouting "Hey, boy!" to get the kid's attention.

It becomes REALLY racist if you say the same thing to get a teen or man's attention, or say it in the third person about a man.
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Old 1st September 2018, 03:02 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
My parents taught me to care about the feelings of others.
Yes, well... there's a difference between caring for feelings and catering to them, though. I wonder if sometimes we're tiptoeing too much, and making people even more sensitive to things in the process.

Like, back when Gone With the Wind came out, "give a damn" was seen as some egregious breach of etiquette. Nowadays we don't care, because we've been desensitised to swear words. If we're to use these words less, they're given more power.

I don't know, just a thought.

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Please and thank you and opening doors for others.
Opening doors? Why, you know that just implies they can't do it themselves! How offensive!

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Females are Miss or Mam and Sir for males , a group of males of almost any age are "gentlemen" and females are "ladies"
Why do you assume their gender?
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Old 1st September 2018, 05:24 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I've also used the term monkey wrench or monkey it up but never, never, never ever would I use it when referring to an African American or African.
You've used the phrase "monkey it up"? I'd never even heard of the phrase before this, never mind used it myself.

How common is it in the US exactly?
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Old 1st September 2018, 06:09 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
You've used the phrase "monkey it up"? I'd never even heard of the phrase before this, never mind used it myself.

How common is it in the US exactly?
No, my mistake. I have said, thrown a monkey wrench into it.

But I have NEVER used 'monkey it up'. In fact, now that you mention it. I don't think I have ever heard anyone use that phrase.
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Old 1st September 2018, 06:25 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
And perhaps he is gambling that a larger number of undecideds will be pushed away from his opponent if they perceive them as being too quick to cry "racist"

Assuming, of course , that it was a calculated statement
Of course it was calculated. He's a Trump Republican so we know he's a racist. You can't live in the Southeast of this country and not know that "monkey" is a racially loaded word. Even the whitest, most sheltered, gated community living rubes in Florida know not to use that word in any relation to a black person unless you're trying to be racist.
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Old 1st September 2018, 06:26 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No, my mistake. I have said, thrown a monkey wrench into it.

But I have NEVER used 'monkey it up'. In fact, now that you mention it. I don't think I have ever heard anyone use that phrase.
I've actually used that phrase quite a bit in my lifetime. Never in reference to anything racial, more as in if it ain't broke, don't fix it sense. For example, back in the day when using rabbit ear antennas on the TV, one would fiddle with them to pull the signal. Finally, you would get the big game to come in at acceptable quality. All of a sudden, your wife or kid comes along and starts to fiddle with it some more to try and get better reception, only to make it worse. That would be the time to pull the monkey phrase out.

I don't exactly know where the phrase comes from, I'm guessing I picked it up from my folks. I assume it has to do with monkeys mimiccing human behavior, but not knowing exactly what they are doing?
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Old 1st September 2018, 06:30 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by gregthehammer View Post
I've actually used that phrase quite a bit in my lifetime. Never in reference to anything racial, more as in if it ain't broke, don't fix it sense. For example, back in the day when using rabbit ear antennas on the TV, one would fiddle with them to pull the signal. Finally, you would get the big game to come in at acceptable quality. All of a sudden, your wife or kid comes along and starts to fiddle with it some more to try and get better reception, only to make it worse. That would be the time to pull the monkey phrase out.

I don't exactly know where the phrase comes from, I'm guessing I picked it up from my folks. I assume it has to do with monkeys mimiccing human behavior, but not knowing exactly what they are doing?
If a million monkeys typed for a million years........
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Old 1st September 2018, 06:45 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by gregthehammer View Post
I've actually used that phrase quite a bit in my lifetime. Never in reference to anything racial, more as in if it ain't broke, don't fix it sense. For example, back in the day when using rabbit ear antennas on the TV, one would fiddle with them to pull the signal. Finally, you would get the big game to come in at acceptable quality. All of a sudden, your wife or kid comes along and starts to fiddle with it some more to try and get better reception, only to make it worse. That would be the time to pull the monkey phrase out.

I don't exactly know where the phrase comes from, I'm guessing I picked it up from my folks. I assume it has to do with monkeys mimiccing human behavior, but not knowing exactly what they are doing?
If you're in what used to be the Jim Crow South, there are certain things a white person should never say to a black person. Because of what went on here, there are some words that carry such a weight of history that a white person just can't use them. Monkey is pretty high up on that list.

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Old 1st September 2018, 06:54 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
If you're in what used to be the Jim Crow South, there are certain things a white person should never say to a black person. Because of what went on here, there are some words that carry such a weight of history that a white person just can't use them. Monkey is pretty high up on that list.
Grew up southeast of Green Bay along lake Michigan in Wisconsin. My grandma, of Czech descent, used to call us grandchildren her "little monkey shines". I think there's just a general fascination with monkeys where I come from.
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Old 1st September 2018, 06:56 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes, well... there's a difference between caring for feelings and catering to them, though. I wonder if sometimes we're tiptoeing too much, and making people even more sensitive to things in the process.

Like, back when Gone With the Wind came out, "give a damn" was seen as some egregious breach of etiquette. Nowadays we don't care, because we've been desensitised to swear words. If we're to use these words less, they're given more power.

I don't know, just a thought.
Nobody is ******* catering. And it ain't hard and it's not being politically correct. I'm not a sensitive soul either. And I would hardly say I'm tiptoeing around either. Being polite and respectful to others is a good first step with anyone.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why do you assume their gender?
Who assumes?

And by the way, I can be as coarse and crude as anyone. It's called being aware of your surroundings. You don't curse and swear in a country club or church or in a retirement home with a bunch of women. But I'm sure I probably would on a hunting/fishing trip or whenever I'm in Boston.
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Old 1st September 2018, 07:13 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by gregthehammer View Post
I've actually used that phrase quite a bit in my lifetime. Never in reference to anything racial, more as in if it ain't broke, don't fix it sense. For example, back in the day when using rabbit ear antennas on the TV, one would fiddle with them to pull the signal. Finally, you would get the big game to come in at acceptable quality. All of a sudden, your wife or kid comes along and starts to fiddle with it some more to try and get better reception, only to make it worse. That would be the time to pull the monkey phrase out.

Don't monkey with it -- I've only heard that expression about ten thousand times.
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Old 1st September 2018, 07:55 AM   #295
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In the information age, everyone who's not a total idiot can spot a political "dog whistle" a mile away. The point of them nowadays is plausible deniability: What's wrong with saying monkey when referring to my black opponent? I'm not racist! (wink, wink).

Trump's base is unapologetically racist, and to win a close race, a candidate has to appeal to them, but they also can't turn off the non-racist moderates and independents. It's a delicate balancing act.

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Old 1st September 2018, 08:37 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
My first grade teacher would begin each day with: "Good morning boys and girls." The woman was obviously a rabid white supremacist, she even made us stand while saying the pledge of allegiance.

I have never got over the horrible trauma of those early years.
We knew there had to be a reason. It's beginning to make sense, now.
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Old 1st September 2018, 08:59 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
In the information age, everyone who's not a total idiot can spot a political "dog whistle" a mile away. The point of them nowadays is plausible deniability: What's wrong with saying monkey when referring to my black opponent? I'm not racist! (wink, wink).

Trump's base is unapologetically racist, and to win a close race, a candidate has to appeal to them, but they also can't turn off the non-racist moderates and independents. It's a delicate balancing act.
EXACTLY!!!! Just look at the posts. It's a mixture of claims of faux innocence and accusations of others being overly sensitive. Its like Trump's claims that he doesn't lie or cheat on his wives. 'Who, me?'
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Old 1st September 2018, 11:58 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
EXACTLY!!!! Just look at the posts. It's a mixture of claims of faux innocence....
I can understand why people think it might have been racist, and if he had said Gillum is a monkey you'd have me agreeing 100%. What I don't get is why you think it would be sensible for the GOP candidate to use a dog whistle against a black candidate. Do you think that he wanted to tell any blind racists who were thinking of voting for Gillum that he was African-American?

Or is this all part and parcel of John McCain's insidious plan to create "a political environment that is inciting hate and hate speech?"

You guys are like the boy pre-adolescent male who cried wolf.
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Old 1st September 2018, 12:11 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I can understand why people think it might have been racist, and if he had said Gillum is a monkey you'd have me agreeing 100%. What I don't get is why you think it would be sensible for the GOP candidate to use a dog whistle against a black candidate. Do you think that he wanted to tell any blind racists who were thinking of voting for Gillum that he was African-American?

You guys are like the boy pre-adolescent male who cried wolf.
Hardly. Trump was successful at winning Florida by blowing that dog whistle and Desantis has gone 'all in' with following that blueprint. Now, I have no idea if it will be successful, but there already is a PAC making racist robocalls.

I believe Gillum's only choice is to ignore it in the way that Obama did who also carried Florida.

But I think we have only seen the beginning of the symphony of dog whistles to come in that race.
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Old 1st September 2018, 12:27 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Hardly. Trump was successful at winning Florida by blowing that dog whistle and Desantis has gone 'all in' with following that blueprint. Now, I have no idea if it will be successful, but there already is a PAC making racist robocalls.

I believe Gillum's only choice is to ignore it in the way that Obama did who also carried Florida.
I could buy the dog whistle argument against Trump (provided you have some examples) because he was not running against a black man. There you could at least argue that he would pull some racist voters away from Hillary by subtly reminding people that she was married to the first black president (per Maya Angelou).

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But I think we have only seen the beginning of the symphony of dog whistles to come in that race.
Yeah, I am sure that when DeSantis says how he wants to lead the Sunshine State into a prosperous future you folks will all be yelling, "He said shine! That's a dog whistle!"
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Old 1st September 2018, 12:44 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
What I don't get is why you think it would be sensible for the GOP candidate to use a dog whistle against a black candidate. Do you think that he wanted to tell any blind racists who were thinking of voting for Gillum that he was African-American?

Dave Chappelle as a blind KKK member (Caution: contains inflammatory language)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7oXFmuUHLQ
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Old 1st September 2018, 12:52 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I could buy the dog whistle argument against Trump (provided you have some examples) because he was not running against a black man. There you could at least argue that he would pull some racist voters away from Hillary by subtly reminding people that she was married to the first black president (per Maya Angelou).

Yeah, I am sure that when DeSantis says how he wants to lead the Sunshine State into a prosperous future you folks will all be yelling, "He said shine! That's a dog whistle!"
Yeah that's right. sure.

Perhaps we won't hear the dog whistles and this was just him being oblivious. I doubt that. But we will see.

I've mis-called it before and I have also been right on. Florida is a very diverse State, but it is also the Deep South. It could be a very interesting race. Or it will be a blow out.
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Old 1st September 2018, 01:04 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
What I don't get is why you think it would be sensible for the GOP candidate to use a dog whistle against a black candidate.
To rile up the bigot base as a tool to get them to the polls.

I'm in TN, and one of the people running for county mayor just tried something similar here. Do you think this looks like an accident, too?
http://www.vibincblog.com/david-leno...s-full-racist/
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Old 1st September 2018, 01:07 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yeah that's right. sure.
It's like they selectively don't remember the effectiveness of Trump's "Mexicans - they're rapists!" strategy.
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Old 1st September 2018, 01:31 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It's like they selectively don't remember the effectiveness of Trump's "Mexicans - they're rapists!" strategy.
These tactics are not new. They hearken back to that time in Trump's mind when America was great, like when his company would tell prospective tenants and customers of color that there was no vacancy or space and then magically have vacancies and space to those of us with paler complexions.

Most of us probably thought the days of racism and dog whistles in politics were behind us. That America had grown beyond it's darker past. Trump and his followers have proven that it's either on a comeback or hopefully just a last gasp.
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Old 1st September 2018, 02:25 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It's like they selectively don't remember the effectiveness of Trump's "Mexicans - they're rapists!" strategy.
I 100% think he was out of line with that statement, and that he was appealing to the some of the nativists in the GOP. That said, Mexicans are not a race. At worst you can say of that statement that it is bigoted, not racist.
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Old 1st September 2018, 02:34 PM   #307
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The republicans are gonna get their butts kicked in November.
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Old 1st September 2018, 02:39 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I 100% think he was out of line with that statement, and that he was appealing to the some of the nativists in the GOP. That said, Mexicans are not a race. At worst you can say of that statement that it is bigoted, not racist.
This my friends is what one calls rationalization.
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Old 1st September 2018, 02:56 PM   #309
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I think a couple of people here are still n the denial stage of grieving over what Trumpism has done to the GOP.
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Old 1st September 2018, 03:10 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I can understand why people think it might have been racist, and if he had said Gillum is a monkey you'd have me agreeing 100%. What I don't get is why you think it would be sensible for the GOP candidate to use a dog whistle against a black candidate. Do you think that he wanted to tell any blind racists who were thinking of voting for Gillum that he was African-American?

Or is this all part and parcel of John McCain's insidious plan to create "a political environment that is inciting hate and hate speech?"

You guys are like the boy pre-adolescent male who cried wolf.
The point of the obvious dog whistle was to get DiSantist to start talking about race. The one thing a black candidate in a mixed race political contest can't talk about is race. It turns off independent and swing voters. You have to talk about issues impacting the entire state. Gillum wants to paint DiSantis as a black/civil rights issue only politician. To do that he needs DiSantis to respond to his racist comments.

DiSantis needs to dismiss the attempt at race baiting for what it is and talk about wage stagnation, school crowding, flood insurance, red tides and infrastructure. This is stuff Floridians care about.
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Old 1st September 2018, 03:43 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I 100% think he was out of line with that statement, and that he was appealing to the some of the nativists in the GOP. That said, Mexicans are not a race. At worst you can say of that statement that it is bigoted, not racist.
You're just arguing semantics now.

What's called the "dog whistle" works by appealing to people's bigotry. Those GOP "nativists" (as you refer to them) generally aren't real fond of "colored people" as in "black people", either.

When it went out of vogue to call black people the n-word to rile up the bigot base to get them to the polls, other phrases started being used, and it continued to morph from there.

See:
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/06/o...repugnant.html

Quote:
Listen to the late Lee Atwater in a 1981 interview explaining the evolution of the G.O.P.'s Southern strategy:

Quote:
"You start out in 1954 by saying, '******, ******, ******.' By 1968 you can't say '******' -- that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites.
Nowadays, sometimes it hurts and backfires (my local mayoral race) and sometimes it works (Trump.)
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Old 1st September 2018, 04:30 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I can understand why people think it might have been racist, and if he had said Gillum is a monkey you'd have me agreeing 100%. What I don't get is why you think it would be sensible for the GOP candidate to use a dog whistle against a black candidate. Do you think that he wanted to tell any blind racists who were thinking of voting for Gillum that he was African-American?

Or is this all part and parcel of John McCain's insidious plan to create "a political environment that is inciting hate and hate speech?"

You guys are like the boy pre-adolescent male who cried wolf.
It's not a question of gaining support from Trump's racist base, but rather not losing any support because they might think you're soft on keeping the uppity minorities in their place.
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Old 1st September 2018, 04:37 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It's not a question of gaining support from Trump's racist base, but rather not losing any support because they might think you're soft on keeping the uppity minorities in their place.
I think it gets them fired up enough to get off their butts and go vote sometimes, too. That appears to be part of what happened with Trump getting elected.
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Old 1st September 2018, 05:50 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I think it gets them fired up enough to get off their butts and go vote sometimes, too. That appears to be part of what happened with Trump getting elected.
I disagree. Trump didn't win because the Republican base got fired up. He won because the Democratic base was unenthusiastic, and the Independants did not turn out for either party.

In the current climate the bases for both parties will be highly motivated, and turning out Independant voters (or at least, keeping them from turning out for the other side) in close States like Florida is where the elections will be won or lost.
Playing to what might be described as "race fatigue" on the part of Independants might be an effective strategy for Republicans.
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Old 1st September 2018, 06:04 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I disagree. Trump didn't win because the Republican base got fired up. He won because the Democratic base was unenthusiastic,...
You act like it's one or the other, when in terms of electoral outcomes, the two are relative to each other.
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Old 1st September 2018, 06:07 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Playing to what might be described as "race fatigue" on the part of Independants might be an effective strategy for Republicans.


"Wow, I sure was planning on just sitting this election out, because all politicians are the same, but now that the democrats are crying racism again, I guess I want to go vote for a republican after all!"
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Old 1st September 2018, 06:08 PM   #317
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I 100% think he was out of line with that statement, and that he was appealing to the some of the nativists in the GOP. That said, Mexicans are not a race. At worst you can say of that statement that it is bigoted, not racist.
Mexicans are mostly Native American; pure NA, or mestizo (mixed NA-European) or mixed black/NA and/or white. The lower down the socio-economic scale a person is, the more likely they are either 100% or predominantly NA. Illegal immigrants tend to be the poorest and, therefore, tend to be predominately NA. In the 1930 US census, "Mexican" was listed as a racial group. The US gov't later changed "Mexican" to "White" and then allowed Mexicans to choose whatever race they felt was appropriate for them. So, yes, racism is definitely a proper word to use as well as bigotry.
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Old 1st September 2018, 06:13 PM   #318
Distracted1
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Or,
I really don't care for Trump and his ilk, but I just can't bring myself to go out and vote for the party that calls me a racist for using the term "monkey"
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Old 1st September 2018, 06:16 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I disagree. Trump didn't win because the Republican base got fired up. He won because the Democratic base was unenthusiastic, and the Independants did not turn out for either party.

In the current climate the bases for both parties will be highly motivated, and turning out Independant voters (or at least, keeping them from turning out for the other side) in close States like Florida is where the elections will be won or lost.
Playing to what might be described as "race fatigue" on the part of Independants might be an effective strategy for Republicans.
I'm not sure any of this is true. I can't say definitely that it is false either. Have you gone over the demographics and all the polling? Say in Florida to be specific? Or are you just wildly speculating?
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Old 1st September 2018, 06:25 PM   #320
Belz...
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Nobody is ******* catering.
Now, that's not true at all. We are doing a hell of a lot of it. Also, no need to get excited.

Quote:
And it ain't hard and it's not being politically correct.
It's never hard to shut up. The question is, should it be required?

Quote:
I'm not a sensitive soul either. And I would hardly say I'm tiptoeing around either. Being polite and respectful to others is a good first step with anyone.
Sure, but as usual in this sort of conversation, we're not talking about that.

Quote:
Who assumes?
It was a joke.

Anyway this is a bit off topic now.
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