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Tags Andrew McCabe , donald trump , George Papadopoulos , Michael Cohen , Paul Manafort , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

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Old 23rd August 2018, 11:06 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Your argument is disproven by the existence of previous hush money payments to other women which predate his campaign.
It is also disproven by the change of circumstances, not the least of which would be the impact on his relationship with his son Barron.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 11:08 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Your argument is disproven by the existence of previous hush money payments to other women which predate his campaign.
Who was paid?
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Old 23rd August 2018, 11:15 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They tried to nail John Edwards for the same thing (paying off a mistress during a campaign). The prosecutors failed to get a conviction, and rightly so.
It's kind of neat how Trump faces bogus charges in this regard, but you were more open-minded when it came to Edwards' being in legal jeopardy:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
In Edwards' case, his handling of his infidelity marked a massive egocentrism, a disregard for risk, a penchant for scapegoating underlings, and possibly even a willingness to break the law. Can you not understand why that might be a bad sign for a potential leader?
Maybe Trump's proven himself a strong leader. Maybe we've learned more about the law from politician payoffs. Learning. We needed to be wary of thin-skinned narcissists, but we can learn how to make peace with them. Character still matters.

Bonus arguments against Trump Edwards:
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What politicians do with their personal lives can give us insight into their character. And character matters. Some of the most important decisions politicians can ever face involve issues that weren't part of their campaign, and may not have even been anticipated (see our response to 9/11, though less extreme examples are much more common). Campaign policy positions are of no use in informing us how politicians might respond. For that, personal character is one of the best guides we have. And the personal lives of politicians tell us a lot about a politician's character. We now know, for example, that John Edwards is reckless. You may not care about his fidelity to his wife, but his willingness to take great risks for purely selfish and petty reasons should give anyone pause.

That doesn't mean that everything is fair game, though. It matters that Edwards cheated on his cancer-striken wife with a woman he may have been paying illegally with campaign funds. It doesn't matter what their preferred sexual position was. Furthermore, the actions of those close to a politician or candidate do not give us much insight into the candidate themselves. So children of politicians, for example, should not receive the kind of scrutiny that the politician themselves may rightly be subjected to.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 11:18 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You can't imagine why the prosecution might want him to say that? You can't imagine why he might be willing to say what prosecutors want him to say even if it's not true?
You think Cohen is lying in his plea-bargain because prosecutors have asked him to? What evidence do you have of this?
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Old 23rd August 2018, 11:21 AM   #45
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Gee,Trump really is trying to be like Nixon in every way possible....
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Old 23rd August 2018, 11:21 AM   #46
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Meanwhile

https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...e_iOSApp_Other

David Pecker of the National Enquirer has apparently been granted immunity by the Cohen investigation

And this is relevant to the discussion uptheread

Quote:
According to prosecutors, AMI advised Cohen throughout the course of the campaign, leading to the purchase of the Daniels and McDougal stories “so as to suppress them and prevent them from influencing the election”.

Prosecutors continued that AMI CEO Pecker helped “deal with negative stories about [Trump’s] relationships with women by, among other things, assisting the campaign in identifying such stories so they could be purchased and their publication avoided”.

Samuel Freedman, a professor of journalism at the Columbia School of Journalism in New York, told the Guardian either of those claims clearly oversteps the role of the press and the protections to report freely that it is afforded under the US constitution.

While the first amendment gives media companies broad freedoms to communicate with candidates, they are not permitted to act outside “legitimate press function”, in this case, potentially coordinating with a campaign to spend money to influence an election.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 11:24 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Meanwhile

https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...e_iOSApp_Other

David Pecker of the National Enquirer has apparently been granted immunity by the Cohen investigation

And this is relevant to the discussion uptheread
What will Pecker spill ?
Inquiring Minds Want To Know......
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Old 23rd August 2018, 11:24 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Meanwhile

https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...e_iOSApp_Other

David Pecker of the National Enquirer has apparently been granted immunity by the Cohen investigation

And this is relevant to the discussion uptheread
Wouldn't the shareholders of AMI have some legal course of action against their CEO here? He's spending the companies money to do a personal favor for a friend. It's tabloid spending money not to publish a salacious story. Seems like self-enrichment to me.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 11:29 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
It's kind of neat how Trump faces bogus charges in this regard, but you were more open-minded when it came to Edwards' being in legal jeopardy:



Maybe Trump's proven himself a strong leader. Maybe we've learned more about the law from politician payoffs. Learning. We needed to be wary of thin-skinned narcissists, but we can learn how to make peace with them. Character still matters.

Bonus arguments against Trump Edwards:
Cancer-stricken wife, Baby-having wife. It's totally different.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 11:30 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Wouldn't the shareholders of AMI have some legal course of action against their CEO here? He's spending the companies money to do a personal favor for a friend. It's tabloid spending money not to publish a salacious story. Seems like self-enrichment to me.
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I AGREE


The UK version was *very* well timed in 1990, with Thatcher's resignation loss of power happening in the middle of the series.

And Ian Richardson was very good as a patrician
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Old 23rd August 2018, 11:33 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
It's kind of neat how Trump faces bogus charges in this regard, but you were more open-minded when it came to Edwards' being in legal jeopardy:
That post wasn't really about the legal case against Edwards. It was about character, how one evaluates it, and what importance we place on it for politicians.

If you think the whole Stormy affair reveals something bad about Trump's character, I agree wholeheartedly. If you think these character flaws mean people shouldn't vote for Trump, go ahead. I won't contest such a conclusion. But don't confuse the morality of the issue with the legality.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 11:37 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
... Bonus arguments against Trump Edwards:
Wow! Applecorped using complete sentences. Mind blown.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 11:46 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
You think Cohen is lying in his plea-bargain because prosecutors have asked him to? What evidence do you have of this?
Good question, but Ziggurat is JAQing in order to sow the seeds of doubt. I've seen better lines of argument than his from Truthers over in the CT forum.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 11:55 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
those were not steps, they were points.



And Cohen/trump had no obligation to declare the deal to the FEC.


He could have chosen to have done a lot of things rather than commit a crime. But he didn't, he choose to commit a crime.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 11:55 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Of course, the plea agreement


Can you link to it, thanks.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 11:56 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Good question, but Ziggurat is JAQing in order to sow the seeds of doubt. I've seen better lines of argument than his from Truthers over in the CT forum.
He wasn't jaq'ing.

It is a condition of a plea that the defendant admit responsibility of all the elements of a prima facie charge.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 11:57 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Can you link to it, thanks.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/21/read...agreement.html
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Old 23rd August 2018, 11:58 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That post wasn't really about the legal case against Edwards.
Agreed.

Quote:
It was about character, how one evaluates it, and what importance we place on it for politicians.
Yes.

Quote:
If you think the whole Stormy affair reveals something bad about Trump's character, I agree wholeheartedly.
Cool.

Quote:
If you think these character flaws mean people shouldn't vote for Trump, go ahead. I won't contest such a conclusion.
OK.

Quote:
But don't confuse the morality of the issue with the legality.
I'm not, and this is where you're full of ****. Is it so difficult to see that you assessed Edwards' legal jeopardy differently than Trump's? At least the bias maintains throughout, and always in the same direction (which is on display in the comments about character).
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Old 23rd August 2018, 11:59 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
He could have chosen to have done a lot of things rather than commit a crime. But he didn't, he choose to commit a crime.


Did you mean to respond to me, because that response does not make sense
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:00 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Wouldn't the shareholders of AMI have some legal course of action against their CEO here? He's spending the companies money to do a personal favor for a friend. It's tabloid spending money not to publish a salacious story. Seems like self-enrichment to me.
Sounds like an illegal campaign contribution to me.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:00 PM   #61
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In Cain's hoisting of Zig by his own petard in post #43, we see revealed the same 'reasoning' other R's brought/bring the bear on D's where 'morality' was/is concerned but had miraculously been reversed when the shoe fell to the other foot. Looking at Lindsey Graham's utterings when voting to impeach Bill, or reading Pence's scribblings back then about same, the nakedly partisan and hypocritical about face now that their guy's in the hot seat is sickening because Trump's in a whole different league of *illegal* scummy sliminess.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:04 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
the crux of the issue is the following language:

The Act defines “contribution” to include “any gift, subscription, loan, advance, or deposit of money or anything of value made by any person for the purpose of influencing any election for Federal office."

The FEC defined "the purpose" to mean the sole purpose, here there clearly was a personal interest (like in the Edwards case) and therefore the law should not and was not violated.


The crux of the matter is Cohen is guilty of commiting a crime. There is no doubt about this since he agrees that he is guilty.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:04 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
You think Cohen is lying in his plea-bargain because prosecutors have asked him to? What evidence do you have of this?
Have we moved on from "He pleaded guilty to something that was not a crime" then?

Or was I being too generous to the argument?
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:05 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The crux of the matter is Cohen is guilty of commiting a crime. There is no doubt about this since he agrees that he is guilty.
Do we need to review all the innocence project cases where they exonerated people who agreed they were guilty?
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:08 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do we need to review all the innocence project cases where they exonerated people who agreed they were guilty?
How many of them were lawyers?
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:09 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
How many of them were lawyers?
No idea.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:10 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The crux of the matter is Cohen is guilty of commiting a crime. There is no doubt about this since he agrees that he is guilty.
I don't want to be pedantic, but a few minutes reflection on this post should show that is not accurate.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:12 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
It's kind of neat how Trump faces bogus charges in this regard, but you were more open-minded when it came to Edwards' being in legal jeopardy:



Maybe Trump's proven himself a strong leader. Maybe we've learned more about the law from politician payoffs. Learning. We needed to be wary of thin-skinned narcissists, but we can learn how to make peace with them. Character still matters.

Bonus arguments against Trump Edwards:
I'm sure that had Obama cheated on his wife and lied about paying off a porn star and his long time personal lawyer was headed to jail after implicating obama,

Zigg would be just as vociferous in his defense.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:12 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I don't want to be pedantic, but a few minutes reflection on this post should show that is not accurate.
There is no reasonable doubt that Cohen was guilty of various crimes and that he agreed to plead guilty of these specific crimes.

There is little doubt that he is no longer friends with Trump.

Remember that you initially said that the Stormy Daniels information wouldn't even lead to him being disbarred.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:15 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
There is no reasonable doubt that Cohen was guilty of various crimes and that he agreed to plead guilty of these specific crimes.
But that wasn't the goalposts of darat's statement.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:16 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
There is no reasonable doubt that Cohen was guilty of various crimes and that he agreed to plead guilty of these specific crimes.
Yes, there was no reasonable doubt that he (and likely his wife) committed certain crimes and that he agreed to plead guilty to these crimes and others.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:18 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Yes, there was no reasonable doubt that he (and likely his wife) committed certain crimes and that he agreed to plead guilty to these crimes and others.
There is also no reasonable doubt that many of the crimes he committed were at Trump's direction.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:18 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
In the following post, which I didn't see while I was composing mine.



Perhaps, but your justification for believing in the likelyhood of such evidence, namely that the judge hasn't thrown out Cohen's guilty plea on that count, doesn't make sense to me. Judges aren't usually in the practice of taking on the role of defense counsel. If the defense pleads guilty, the judge is only going to reject that plea under extraordinary circumstances. The payment to Stormy is a lesser charge here. If the other charges are well supported and if the prosecution is recommending light sentencing (very likely since a plea deal was reached quickly) then I doubt the judge is going to consider it a miscarriage of justice that warrants tossing the plea. It's not like Cohen got stuck with a public defender who forced a bad plea on Cohen out of negligence or incompetence.
And there you go speaking as if you have legal expertise again. Yet you do not. Or do you have citations about what a judge will and will not accept for a plea agreement in a court of law?
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:22 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
There is also no reasonable doubt that many of the crimes he committed were at Trump's direction.
Obviously not accurate.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:22 PM   #75
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Apparently Trump thinks that "flipping" or turning states witness in return for significantly more lenient sentences is something terrible and shouldn't be allowed (at least when it negatively effects him because he's been so harmed by those damn flippers).
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:23 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Of course, the plea agreement


Thanks for the link to the plea agreement, I've now read it and it is clear that it does not support your claim.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:25 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post




Did you mean to respond to me, because that response does not make sense


Yes.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:26 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Thanks for the link to the plea agreement, I've now read it and it is clear that it does not support your claim.
Don't mention it, just like you won't mention how you concluded that it doesn't support the claim.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:26 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do we need to review all the innocence project cases where they exonerated people who agreed they were guilty?


I have no opinion on that.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 12:27 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I don't want to be pedantic, but a few minutes reflection on this post should show that is not accurate.


Yes it is, it's clearly stated in the plea agreement.
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