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Tags Andrew McCabe , donald trump , George Papadopoulos , Michael Cohen , Paul Manafort , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

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Old 23rd August 2018, 02:44 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
See, we needed the mights!
I thought you might.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 02:44 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by phunk View Post
But the thing is, they can only plead guilty after being charged with a crime. They aren't pleading guilty to things that aren't illegal. They are pleading guilty to things that have made a judge and grand jury say "yup, those are crimes and there's enough evidence to go forward with a trial."
he plead to an information that was never presented to a grand jury and was presented to the judge for the first time at the plea hearing.

Pretty standard stuff.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 02:47 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
This is getting silly, now.
I have not seen grasping at straws like this in a long time.
Not only grasping: refusing to admit how small the straws are.

ETA: they aren't just in the Bailey, they've withdrawn to a broom closet in the Bailey. And the door is marked "IF".
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Old 23rd August 2018, 02:50 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
he plead to an information that was never presented to a grand jury and was presented to the judge for the first time at the plea hearing.

Pretty standard stuff.
Yep very standard, a criminal admitted his guilt to try and gain some leniency in regards to his sentencing.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 02:52 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Both Ziggurat and The Big Dog seem to be arguing that he's pleaded guilty to something that's not a crime and which he didn't do anyway, because prosecutors have asked him to.
Of course. It's called 'grasping at straws.' That's all they have left.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 02:54 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yep very standard, a criminal admitted his guilt to try and gain some leniency in regards to his sentencing.
Yep very standard, the government offered leniency in regards to his (and his wife's) sentencing in exchange for not having to prove all of the elements of the charges by clear and convincing evidence, and to get a plea on charges that it will try to use to go after much bigger fish.

Consensus is cool.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 02:55 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Of course. It's called 'grasping at straws.' That's all they have left.
No, bruh, that is called grasping at strawmen.



Good night everyone, try the veal.

Drops the mic
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Old 23rd August 2018, 02:59 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Yep very standard, the government offered leniency in regards to his (and his wife's) sentencing in exchange for not having to prove all of the elements of the charges by clear and convincing evidence, and to get a plea on charges that it will try to use to go after much bigger fish.

Consensus is cool.
Glad to see that you agree the criminal admitted his guilt to numerous criminal charges.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 03:06 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Glad to see that you agree the criminal admitted his guilt to numerous criminal charges.
Glad to see that you agree the government admitted that they struck a deal with Cohen to avoid proving the charges and go after bigger fish.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 03:09 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Glad to see that you agree the government admitted that they struck a deal with Cohen to avoid proving the charges and go after bigger fish.
Can you point to the documentation that has "the government" admitting your claim. I suspect not.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 03:10 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Can you point to the documentation that has "the government" admitting your claim. I suspect not.
yes
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Old 23rd August 2018, 03:19 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
yes
That's a lie.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 03:19 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
The Deep State keeps getting bigger, and deeper, doesn't it? It's probably easier to list how many people aren't part of this conspiracy.
If there is a massive Deep State Conspiracy against Trump I have one question:'
Where the hell do I join?
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Old 23rd August 2018, 03:24 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's a lie.
wrong.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 03:30 PM   #175
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What we're all missing about this plea is that Cohen drinks 12 year-old Glenlivet on the rocks.

Hang the bastard.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 03:33 PM   #176
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A six million dollar apartment and he can't spring for 18 year?

Oh wait, you don't like ice, never mind.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 03:38 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Objection - speculation.

sustained!
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Old 23rd August 2018, 03:40 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
wrong.

Show us then , or shut up!
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Old 23rd August 2018, 03:41 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Show us then , or shut up!
Oh dear....
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Old 23rd August 2018, 03:56 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How can you plead guilty to something that isn't a crime?
!!! Analogy Warning !!!

Bob is heroin dealer, who is attacked by an armed robber while walking down a dark alley. Bob shoots and kills the robber. The cops have been following Bob because they suspect he's a heroin dealer, and they witness the shooting. The cops snag Bob up after he kills the robber, and take him in for interrogation. During the interrogation, they tell him that he's under suspicion for being a heroin dealer, which carries a sentence of 25 years... but that murder only carries a sentence of 5 years. Bob isn't completely sure how much info the cops have on him with respect to heroin dealing. The cops offer him a deal: plead guilty to murder and flip on his supplier, and they'll drop the case against him related to heroin dealing. The cops tell Bob that if he doesn't take the plea bargain, they will prosecute for heroin dealing.

Bob didn't commit murder - it was clearly self-defense. But he is willing to plead guilty to murder because it carries a shorter sentence than heroin dealing does.

The action can be cast as a crime, and can be plead to as a crime, without actually having been a crime.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 03:57 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by phunk View Post
But the thing is, they can only plead guilty after being charged with a crime. They aren't pleading guilty to things that aren't illegal. They are pleading guilty to things that have made a judge and grand jury say "yup, those are crimes and there's enough evidence to go forward with a trial."
You know what they say about grand juries and ham sandwiches, right? And judges almost never throw out cases where the defense doesn’t move for a dismissal, let alone ones where the defendant pleads guilty.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 03:59 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by phunk View Post
They are pleading guilty to things that have made a judge and grand jury say "yup, those are crimes and there's enough evidence to go forward with a trial."
I am under the impression that this isn't exactly true. Yes, the things they're being charged with are crimes... but no judge or jury is looking at how much evidence there is for it. And there's not necessarily a case - the person may not have actually committed the crime with which they're being charged.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 04:00 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's relevant to the argument put forth that Cohen's plea proves paying Stormy was an illegal campaign expenditure.
Do you see any distinction between pleading guilty to something he didn't do and pleading guilty to something he actually did? I'm talking about the act itself, not your interpretation of the law.

Anyway, in the eyes of the law now, he is guilty, which seems to mean that lover boy is guilty of directing him to commit a crime. Do you think your arguments will save him?
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Old 23rd August 2018, 04:01 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Had he declared it to the FEC as a campaign expenditure, then Trump would be in trouble for personal use of campaign funds.
That's only if you buy the lie paying off the women to keep silent had nothing to do with the campaign. Which is absurd. When were these two affairs? A decade ago yet somehow there was a need to keep them silent just before the election?

But if that's not enough for you, Cohen recorded his conversation about the expenses with Trump where they conspired to avoid FEC regulations.

As for use of campaign funds, the money came from the Trump Foundation, so charity fraud even if there were no FEC violations.

Here's the thing more than a few people keep missing even though it has been spelled out:

There was no legal offense in using campaign money to pay the women off if it had been reported, which it wasn't. So if it was a campaign expense, they failed to report it.

The offense was in the fact the money was an undeclared campaign donation. If the money came from Cohen, it was a campaign loan, needed to be declared.

If the money came from Trump, there are limits in personal donations to one's campaign as well and it needed to be reported. And the fact Trump ordered his kids to use the Trump Foundation money to pay Cohen back, that's also a crime.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 04:05 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. That isn't how the personal use prohibition works. It isn't enough to say that the expense is useful for the campaign. You have to be able to say that you wouldn't have incurred the expense but for the campaign. An expense you would have incurred anyways, even if it's useful to the campaign, cannot be paid for by the campaign...
Here you go again asserting some legal opinion that is waay over your pay-grade.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 04:13 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
As for use of campaign funds, the money came from the Trump Foundation, so charity fraud even if there were no FEC violations.
Do we know this for a fact?

I ask because state-level investigations could be worse for Trump than federal charges. He doesn't have as much scope to meddle in state affairs.

I saw the link upthread, will take a look.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 04:20 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh dear....

I'll take that as "you can't prove what you said"

Situation normal
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Old 23rd August 2018, 04:26 PM   #188
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I see we're back on the "this lawyer is a scumbag" tack. That's proven fruitful before. I'm sure that will make all this go away.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 04:32 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Do you see any distinction between pleading guilty to something he didn't do and pleading guilty to something he actually did? I'm talking about the act itself, not your interpretation of the law.

Anyway, in the eyes of the law now, he is guilty, which seems to mean that lover boy is guilty of directing him to commit a crime. Do you think your arguments will save him?
No. It doesn’t work that way. Cohen’s guilty plea does nothing legally to establish Trump’s guilt. That must be established separately.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 04:34 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Do we know this for a fact?

I ask because state-level investigations could be worse for Trump than federal charges. He doesn't have as much scope to meddle in state affairs.

I saw the link upthread, will take a look.
In fact we know it is a lie. The information said that the money came from the real estate company.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 04:36 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. It doesn’t work that way. Cohen’s guilty plea does nothing legally to establish Trump’s guilt. That must be established separately.
You didn't answer my question. Do you see any distinction between pleading guilty to something he didn't do and pleading guilty to something he actually did?
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Old 23rd August 2018, 04:36 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Here you go again asserting some legal opinion that is waay over your pay-grade.
I note you have no counter-argument.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 04:38 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
You didn't answer my question. Do you see any distinction between pleading guilty to something he didn't do and pleading guilty to something he actually did?
In regards to what? His sentence will be just as legally binding in either case, if that’s what you mean. This was never in dispute.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 05:01 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
In regards to what? His sentence will be just as legally binding in either case, if that’s what you mean. This was never in dispute.

Seems to me, statistics about people pleading guilty of acts they hadn't actually committed aren't at all relevant to this case.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 05:02 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Both Ziggurat and The Big Dog seem to be arguing that he's pleaded guilty to something that's not a crime and which he didn't do anyway, because prosecutors have asked him to.
If you could harness the amount of spin that certain posters are putting out in their arguments, it would power the Eastern Seaboard for years.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 05:10 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat
Originally Posted by phunk View Post
But the thing is, they can only plead guilty after being charged with a crime. They aren't pleading guilty to things that aren't illegal. They are pleading guilty to things that have made a judge and grand jury say "yup, those are crimes and there's enough evidence to go forward with a trial."
You know what they say about grand juries and ham sandwiches, right? And judges almost never throw out cases where the defense doesn’t move for a dismissal, let alone ones where the defendant pleads guilty.
That's another dodge. Maybe you can open up a dealership.

Do you agree that he pled guilty to a crime, or are you still saying that he somehow pled guilty to a not-crime? I'm asking for clarity, because I have not seen you be specific on this yet.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 05:13 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I'll take that as "you can't prove what you said"

Situation normal
Can.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 05:16 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
That's another dodge. Maybe you can open up a dealership.

Do you agree that he pled guilty to a crime, or are you still saying that he somehow pled guilty to a not-crime? I'm asking for clarity, because I have not seen you be specific on this yet.
Just to clarify, you are cool with the obvious lies that the charges were reviewed by a grand jury and a judge?
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Old 23rd August 2018, 05:16 PM   #199
dudalb
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I have images of some of the posters here trying their legal theories in law school, and seeing what the professor does to them........
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Old 23rd August 2018, 05:23 PM   #200
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I have images of some of the posters here trying their legal theories in law school, and seeing what the professor does to them........
So do I! Zig is killing it, and the image you should have is the professor taking him aside after class and telling him that he should be an editor on the law review.
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