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Tags Andrew McCabe , donald trump , George Papadopoulos , Michael Cohen , Paul Manafort , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

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Old 24th August 2018, 07:43 AM   #241
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It's a ******* campaign contribution!

It was made within 2 weeks of the election.

It was done for the purpose of influencing the election.
That doesn't suffice to get past the personal use exception. And large fonts don't make your claim more convincing.

Had this been a declared campaign expense, you would be using the personal use exception to go after Trump for embezzling from the campaign.
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Old 24th August 2018, 07:44 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That doesn't suffice to get past the personal use exception. And large fonts don't make your claim more convincing.

Had this been a declared campaign expense, you would be using the personal use exception to go after Trump for embezzling from the campaign.
Now here I gotta disagree with you: large fonts are the key to well argued points.

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Old 24th August 2018, 07:50 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Now here I gotta disagree with you: large fonts are the key to well argued points.

OK, I'm about to blow your mind with a paradox:

Large fonts don't convince people.

Let's see you get out of that one.
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Old 24th August 2018, 07:52 AM   #244
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TBD, it doesn't matter whether or not Trump wanted to keep the affair a secret for private reasons only. Stormy Daniels certainly wanted to talk about it because of the national, not the private Trump family interest. If she had not been silenced, she would have made the talk-show rounds prior to the election with the aim of influencing the vote.
So suppressing her testimony was a direct benefit to the campaign.
Get over it.
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Old 24th August 2018, 07:53 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Remember to donate to heroes of the Resistance!

Andy McCabe: sat on evidence, repeatedly lied under oath, fired by FBI.
Peter Strzok: serial philanderer, used FBI equipment to hide affairs, fired by FBI;
Michael Cohen: 5 time convicted tax cheat.

All with go fund me accounts for the convenience of the Rubes.
It's good to know that you think that lying under oath, interfering with justice being carried out, having affairs, the use of official equipment for improper purposes, and tax fraud are all things that are worthy of condemnation. I hope you apply these standards even-handedly and with no partisanship.
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Old 24th August 2018, 07:54 AM   #246
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They're not supposed to convince someone, as much as point out the obvious flaw in your argument.

The prosecution argued that it was a campaign contribution
The defence agreed that it was a campaign contribution
The judge accepted that it was a campaign contribution

It kept an embarrassing story out of the news just before the vote.

It was a campaign contribution.
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Old 24th August 2018, 07:54 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Remember to donate to heroes of the Resistance!

Andy McCabe: sat on evidence, repeatedly lied under oath, fired by FBI.
Peter Strzok: serial philanderer, used FBI equipment to hide affairs, fired by FBI;
Michael Cohen: 5 time convicted tax cheat.

All with go fund me accounts for the convenience of the Rubes.
Folks who donate might see this as their contributing to a kind of "Innocence project". The President, using the power of his bully pulpit, politically meddled with the aim of churlishly exacting revenge on those who threatened and spoke out against him. Trump in a way 'convicted' these guys in the political arena, without full and proper legal procedures having had a chance to play out.
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Old 24th August 2018, 07:57 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
TBD, it doesn't matter whether or not Trump wanted to keep the affair a secret for private reasons only. Stormy Daniels certainly wanted to talk about it because of the national, not the private Trump family interest. If she had not been silenced, she would have made the talk-show rounds prior to the election with the aim of influencing the vote.
So suppressing her testimony was a direct benefit to the campaign.
Get over it.
You don't really believe that people should get convicted because of transferred intent of extortionists, do you?

"if she had not been silenced." gaze upon it, folks, Stormy was FORCED to take that 130k.

Spectacularly specious and ridiculous argument.
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Old 24th August 2018, 07:59 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It's good to know that you think that lying under oath, interfering with justice being carried out, having affairs, the use of official equipment for improper purposes, and tax fraud are all things that are worthy of condemnation. I hope you apply these standards even-handedly and with no partisanship.
I was just pointing out to the "resistance" those things are genuine boon!

Donate today!
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:06 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I was just pointing out to the "resistance" those things are genuine boon!

Donate today!
It's good to know that you think that lying under oath, interfering with justice being carried out, having affairs, the use of official equipment for improper purposes, and tax fraud are all things that are worthy of condemnation. I hope you apply these standards even-handedly and with no partisanship.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:07 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
To repeat folks:

"Cohen pleaded guilty to an illegal campaign contribution. That's an actual crime. But if the payment to Stormy wasn't a campaign contribution (and I do not believe it was, for reasons detailed already), then Cohen can't actually be guilty of it."

This has been explained ten ways to Sunday
And you're STILL WRONG!

You can massage it any way you want. But it was done to influence the election. Cohen has said this. My guess is that Pecker will confirm it. My guess is that there are emails to confirm it. Just because the spin machine at Fox News and right wing radio say otherwise is irrelevant.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:12 AM   #252
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http://news.trust.org//item/20180824150611-suw9c/


Quote:
WASHINGTON, Aug 24 (Reuters) - Federal prosecutors have granted immunity to Trump Organization chief financial officer Allen Weisselberg in a probe involving President Donald Trump's former lawyer, Michael Cohen, the Wall Street Journal reported on Friday.
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Last edited by jimbob; 24th August 2018 at 08:15 AM.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:14 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
TBD, it doesn't matter whether or not Trump wanted to keep the affair a secret for private reasons only. Stormy Daniels certainly wanted to talk about it because of the national, not the private Trump family interest. If she had not been silenced, she would have made the talk-show rounds prior to the election with the aim of influencing the vote.
So suppressing her testimony was a direct benefit to the campaign.
Get over it.
Once again, that isn't how the private use exception works. It doesn't suffice for the expense to benefit the campaign.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:17 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
God damn it, are you not paying any attention? We just went through this! No, it's not extraordinary circumstances. It's sadly quite ordinary. Judges very rarely reject guilty pleas from the innocent.



You really need to work on your reading comprehension. Cohen pleaded guilty to an illegal campaign contribution. That's an actual crime. But if the payment to Stormy wasn't a campaign contribution (and I do not believe it was, for reasons detailed already), then Cohen can't actually be guilty of it.

That isn't a complicated concept. How can you not grasp it? You can claim I'm wrong that it was a campaign contribution and therefore a crime, but that's what the argument has to rest on, not the fact that the judge accepted the plea. Star making an argument that actually makes sense.

Your statement was that you didn't believe it was a crime.

If you have changed your view on this point then fine. Just say so.

Otherwise there is no other conclusion which can be reached. In your opinion Cohen pleaded guilty to something that wasn't a crime.

Which leaves the question, "How does that work?". It either was a crime, in which case what is left is whether or not the plea was a sincere one, or it wasn't, in which case he could not plead guilty of it.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:18 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That doesn't suffice to get past the personal use exception. And large fonts don't make your claim more convincing.

Had this been a declared campaign expense, you would be using the personal use exception to go after Trump for embezzling from the campaign.
Just because something also has personal utility to it doesn't mean it meets the exception. The test is intention. Sure Cohen could say he paid Stormy Daniels just to save Trump from personal embarrassment, but it doesn't meet the smell test.

According to Cohen, the payment was made to influence the election and a reasonable assessment of the facts bear that out. Trump has had lots of affairs. Cohen is not going to take out a personal equity loan to pay off a one night stand of Trump's.

What do you think Pecker is going to say about the payments? Do you think he's going to back up Trump or Cohen?
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Last edited by acbytesla; 24th August 2018 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:18 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
As for use of campaign funds, the money came from the Trump Foundation, so charity fraud even if there were no FEC violations.
No, I don't think so. As I understand it, the money came from the Trump Organization, that is, the business end of things, and not the Foundation.

If you have a citation to the contrary, please provide it.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:20 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
God damn it, are you not paying any attention? We just went through this! No, it's not extraordinary circumstances. It's sadly quite ordinary. Judges very rarely reject guilty pleas from the innocent.
Guilty pleas to what now? Crimes? Would you kindly, pretty please with sugar on it, clarify what you are saying that Cohen pleaded guilty to is or is not a crime?
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:21 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Just because something also has personal utility to it doesn't mean it meets the exception. The test is intention.
No. The test is not intention OR utility.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:21 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Once again, that isn't how the private use exception works. It doesn't suffice for the expense to benefit the campaign.
And that doesn't matter.

All the lawyers and the judge involved in the case agreed that Cohen had violated campaign law with these payments.

A hypothetical, Ziggurat, would your opinion change if emails surfaced where the parties discussed the impact of the story on the election?
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Last edited by jimbob; 24th August 2018 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:23 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
To repeat folks:

"Cohen pleaded guilty to an illegal campaign contribution. That's an actual crime. But if the payment to Stormy wasn't a campaign contribution (and I do not believe it was, for reasons detailed already), then Cohen can't actually be guilty of it."

This has been explained ten ways to Sunday
Well, if you are correct, then Trump sure does hire incredibly stupid people.

After all, Cohen is a lawyer himself and if he just plead "guilty" to a crime that he was actually innocent of, then he has got to be the most stupid lawyer in the world.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:25 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Your statement was that you didn't believe it was a crime.

If you have changed your view on this point then fine. Just say so.

Otherwise there is no other conclusion which can be reached. In your opinion Cohen pleaded guilty to something that wasn't a crime.

Which leaves the question, "How does that work?". It either was a crime, in which case what is left is whether or not the plea was a sincere one, or it wasn't, in which case he could not plead guilty of it.
Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12


Cohen pled guilty to a crime. I am claiming that his actual actions in regards to paying Stormy were not a crime, and do not meet the necessary criteria of the crime he pled guilty to. Nothing stops him from doing this.
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Last edited by kmortis; 27th August 2018 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:28 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And that doesn't matter.

All the lawyers and the judge involved in the case agreed that Cohen had violated campaign law with these payments.

A hypothetical, Ziggurat, would your opinion change if emails surfaced where the parties discussed the impact of the story on the election?
No. The impact on the election does not suffice. Trump's interest in the impact of the election does not suffice. To get past the personal use exception, we need to establish that Trump would not have paid Stormy if there were no election. If there were emails which not only discussed the impact on the election but further stated that Trump would not pay but for the election, that would be proof.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:28 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
http://news.trust.org//item/20180824150611-suw9c/

Quote:
WASHINGTON, Aug 24 (Reuters) - Federal prosecutors have granted immunity to Trump Organization chief financial officer Allen Weisselberg in a probe involving President Donald Trump's former lawyer, Michael Cohen, the Wall Street Journal reported on Friday.
This is huge.

Weisselberg will be able to explain all of Trump's business and personal finances. You now have Trump's most trusted lawyer and his accountant for decades. Trump's taxes and financials are going to come pouring out and AW will be able to explain them all.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:29 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12


Cohen pled guilty to a crime. I am claiming that his actual actions in regards to paying Stormy were not a crime, and do not meet the necessary criteria of the crime he pled guilty to. Nothing stops him from doing this.
Thank you.

When a half-dozen people don't understand your point, and ask you the same damn question over and over again, it's not those posters that have the comprehension problem.

Last edited by kmortis; 27th August 2018 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:31 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12


Cohen pled guilty to a crime. I am claiming that his actual actions in regards to paying Stormy were not a crime, and do not meet the necessary criteria of the crime he pled guilty to. Nothing stops him from doing this.
Yet his lawyer, the prosecution and the judge all agreed he had committed a crime.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:31 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Well, if you are correct, then Trump sure does hire incredibly stupid people.

After all, Cohen is a lawyer himself and if he just plead "guilty" to a crime that he was actually innocent of, then he has got to be the most stupid lawyer in the world.
Do keep up, we've been over this before, and it should be obvious that this reasoning is wrong.

It all depends on what kind of deal Cohen was able to get. I have no doubt Cohen was guilty on some other charges, and had little chance of successfully defending against them. Pleading to this specific charge is probably irrelevant to him, the total sentence is what likely matters. And if his lawyer can get a lower sentence by pleading to an additional charge, then that's what he's going to do. There's nothing stupid about doing that.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:32 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. The test is not intention OR utility.
You're wrong. What a surprise.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:35 AM   #268
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I was really hoping for good conversation here, because this topic interests me so.

Are there other politics forums that are heavily-moderated like ISF out there?
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:35 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're wrong. What a surprise.
Go look at the statute. The test is whether the cost would be incurred in the absence of the campaign. That is neither a utility to the campaign nor an intention test.

I'm right, you're wrong, you can't provide any actual argument to support your claim. What a surprise.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:35 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yet his lawyer, the prosecution and the judge all agreed he had committed a crime.
No.

The judge accepted his plea of guilty to the charge
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:37 AM   #271
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Well, if you are correct, then Trump sure does hire incredibly stupid people.

After all, Cohen is a lawyer himself and if he just plead "guilty" to a crime that he was actually innocent of, then he has got to be the most stupid lawyer in the world.
Let's see.

Michael Cohen is a lawyer.
Lanny Davis is a lawyer.
The prosecutors are lawyers.
The judge is a lawyer.

Zig is not.

Now out of that group, who I wonder understands the law?


Hmmmm.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:38 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Go look at the statute. The test is whether the cost would be incurred in the absence of the campaign. That is neither a utility to the campaign nor an intention test.

I'm right, you're wrong, you can't provide any actual argument to support your claim. What a surprise.
I've read the statute. You're wrong.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:40 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Let's see.

Michael Cohen is a lawyer.
Lanny Davis is a lawyer.
The prosecutors are lawyers.
The judge is a lawyer.

Zig is not.

Now out of that group, who I wonder understands the law?


Hmmmm.
Is your claim that people who understand the law always follow it perfectly? Because that claim is kind of self-defeating in this case. And if it's not, well, the fact that they may understand it doesn't really matter.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:41 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. The impact on the election does not suffice. Trump's interest in the impact of the election does not suffice. To get past the personal use exception, we need to establish that Trump would not have paid Stormy if there were no election. If there were emails which not only discussed the impact on the election but further stated that Trump would not pay but for the election, that would be proof.
Well there's probably no more than a 2-8% chance of that happening.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:43 AM   #275
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I've read the statute. You're wrong.
You've read it? I'm super impressed.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:45 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. The impact on the election does not suffice. Trump's interest in the impact of the election does not suffice. To get past the personal use exception, we need to establish that Trump would not have paid Stormy if there were no election. If there were emails which not only discussed the impact on the election but further stated that Trump would not pay but for the election, that would be proof.
How certain are you that such records don't exist?
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:46 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Is your claim that people who understand the law always follow it perfectly? Because that claim is kind of self-defeating in this case. And if it's not, well, the fact that they may understand it doesn't really matter.
Further, what we have been patiently trying to explain in detail is the the purpose of a plea bargain is not to adjudicate the legal and factual issues, but to reach a plea agreement to avoid that.

All the lawyers knew that the prosecutors had 5 strong claims and 3 questionable ones for the reasons that have been expertly laid out in detail in this thread. So they did a deal.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:47 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. The impact on the election does not suffice. Trump's interest in the impact of the election does not suffice. To get past the personal use exception, we need to establish that Trump would not have paid Stormy if there were no election. If there were emails which not only discussed the impact on the election but further stated that Trump would not pay but for the election, that would be proof.
I don't believe you're so dense about this. Cohen knew why he made the contribution. That is enough. You can make the flimsy argument that Trump or Cohen would have paid the hush money any way. But it's not believable.
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:51 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
How certain are you that such records don't exist?
I'm going for 2-8% chance that they do
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http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:54 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
No, I don't think so. As I understand it, the money came from the Trump Organization, that is, the business end of things, and not the Foundation.

If you have a citation to the contrary, please provide it.
Note that the current WSJ article confirms what I said. It's the Trump Organization that reimbursed Cohen, not the Foundation (i.e., the business, not the "charity").
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