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Old 23rd October 2018, 07:28 AM   #1
varwoche
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Democrats = Antifa = BS

The GOP are foisting this new Democrats/mobs talking point, pointing to Antifa as an arm of the Democratic party. This accusation is being leveled by national figures, and by members of this forum.

Quote:
they [antifa] have become the ski-masked thug wing of the Democratic Party
link
I issued a challenge a few weeks ago that went unanswered, so I'm trying again here. Cite a couple of significant Democrat/liberal leaders -- former/current Presidents, Senators, Reps, Cabinet Members, Governors -- who have supported Antifa in any way. I previously expanded the list of significant Democrats so I'll do it again now: You can include NYT/Wapo staff editorialists, CNN hosts, and MSNBC hosts.

That's the entire Democratic power structure, current and past, and a whole bunch of pundits. Have at it folks!

I'm hoping this thread will focus on examples (or lack thereof) of significant Dems supporting Antifa. There are plenty of other threads to discuss right-wing political violence, Trump's support for political violence, etc.

I'll also examine the fact that Antifa has no use for Democrats. Stay tuned.
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Last edited by varwoche; 23rd October 2018 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 08:03 AM   #2
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Truth. Antifa hates neo-nazis, They have no love for Democrats. Right-wingers assume that if you are against nazis, you must be for Democrats.

Which is a little unnerving when you think about it.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 08:16 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Truth. Antifa hates neo-nazis, They have no love for Democrats. Right-wingers assume that if you are against nazis, you must be for Democrats.

Which is a little unnerving when you think about it.
Or, a bit more unnerving, republicans assume that if one is anti-fascist that one is anti-republican
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Old 23rd October 2018, 08:40 AM   #4
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Any clever person who supports and believes in democracy and freedom should be against fascism (and Nazism too of course).

That GOP member do not even manage to understand this tells it all about how low this party has fallen.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 08:49 AM   #5
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The reason is the 2nd Unite the Right in Washington ...
... which showed the GOP that their extremists are a tiny minority of scared teenagers who need police protection from the vastly larger number of counter-protesters: it is the starkest proof that right-wingers don't have a silent majority behind them, progressives do.

So in order for militant far-right groups not to get beaten up wherever they show, police and the public have to be primed to see Antifa as the enemy, in effect recruiting the police to Team Nazi.
This is 100% the Goebbels handbook, and we know from communications from US Nazi groups that they are following it.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 08:52 AM   #6
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Sorry, but that ship has sailed. If Antifa had confined their vigilantism to actual neo-nazis, there might be a point. But by the time Antifa got to Charlottesville, we'd already seen their shenanigans in Berkeley. It's painfully obvious that they're just violent progressives, using "anti-fascism" as a fig leaf to excuse any act of political violence they feel the urge to commit.

If your goal is to convince people that Antifa aren't just politically violent progressives, you've got a long row to hoe. Try not to sprain anything.

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Old 23rd October 2018, 08:58 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sorry, but that ship has sailed. If Antifa had confined their vigilantism to actual neo-nazis, there might be a point. But by the time they Antifa got to Charlottesville, we'd already seen their shenanigans in Berkeley. It's painfully obvious that they're just violent progressives, using "anti-fascism" as a fig leaf to excuse any act of political violence they feel the urge to commit.

If your goal is to convince people that Antifa aren't just politically violent progressives, you've got a long row to hoe. Try not to sprain anything.
Well, your point is valid that they are a bunch of loose cannons, but there is no reason to think they are progressives. A nice chunk of their makeup are apolitical anarchists, who dislike Dems and Repubs alike.

That's the good thing about nazis, I guess. You know exactly what they're going to do.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 09:03 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Or, a bit more unnerving, republicans assume that if one is anti-fascist that one is anti-republican
That is somewhat telling.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 09:08 AM   #9
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Antifa are simply Nazis with good PR. I don't see any connection between them and Democrats, although I'm hardly an expert on US politics.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 09:15 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Antifa are simply Nazis with good PR.
You don't think that blanket may be a bit too wide, here?

How about "conservatives are simply Nazis with good PR"?

How about we acknowledge the problems and bad elements within a group without condemning everybody even loosely associated with them?
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Old 23rd October 2018, 09:16 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Antifa are simply Nazis with good PR. I don't see any connection between them and Democrats, although I'm hardly an expert on US politics.
Nazis: well organized and directed, hate people for what they are born as, and want to tell you exactly what you can and cannot do.

Antifa: unorganized with no direction and are willing to throw down to send haters packing, and don't want anyone yelling them what to do.

Not too similar
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Old 23rd October 2018, 09:18 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That is somewhat telling.
The definition of anti-fascist seems to expand whenever convenient to excuse political violence from the left. And we've known for at decades that "conservative" = "fascist" for many progressives.

That kind of uncharitable hyperbole was tolerable when it was just rhetoric. But now that progressives are finding in themselves a taste for political violence, the equation of conservatives with fascists is pretty worrying.

You're trying to have it both ways.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 09:18 AM   #13
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Nazis have an end-goal.
Antifa wants to prevent that, not set up their own system.
So very different.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 09:20 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The definition of anti-fascist seems to expand whenever convenient to excuse political violence from the left. And we've known for at decades that "conservative" = "fascist" for many progressives.

That kind of uncharitable hyperbole was tolerable when it was just rhetoric. But now that progressives are finding in themselves a taste for political violence, the equation of conservatives with fascists is pretty worrying.

You're trying to have it both ways.
Still not the left. Still not progressives.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 09:21 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You don't think that blanket may be a bit too wide, here?

How about "conservatives are simply Nazis with good PR"?

How about we acknowledge the problems and bad elements within a group without condemning everybody even loosely associated with them?
There are no good Antifa, just like there are no good Nazis (apart from dead ones, in both cases). Again, I stress I'm not an expert on US politics, but I don't see many conservatives balaclava'd up roaming the country doling out violence and intimidation to people whose speech they disagree with.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 09:26 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The definition of anti-fascist seems to expand whenever convenient to excuse political violence from the left. And we've known for at decades that "conservative" = "fascist" for many progressives.
No argument there. It does, however, seem irrelevant to what I said.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 09:33 AM   #17
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But what about all the good nazis who are running on various republican tickets? They clearly can not be classed with common rabble nazis right?
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Old 23rd October 2018, 09:42 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
There are no good Antifa
Clearly then you have no idea what you're talking about. You're getting your information about this group from sources that twist the data to make it appear that way.

That sort of clashes with your earlier claim of cross-checking media claims. Seems like what you actually meant was that you think media that disagrees with you is dishonest, while media that agrees with you is reliable. Cross-checking my eye.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 09:44 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Clearly then you have no idea what you're talking about. You're getting your information about this group from sources that twist the data to make it appear that way.

That sort of clashes with your earlier claim of cross-checking media claims. Seems like what you actually meant was that you think media that disagrees with you is dishonest, while media that agrees with you is reliable. Cross-checking my eye.
So now you're going to give a few examples of the 'good' people in this officially terrorist organisation...

...or maybe you're not.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 09:47 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sorry, but that ship has sailed. If Antifa had confined their vigilantism to actual neo-nazis, there might be a point. But by the time Antifa got to Charlottesville, we'd already seen their shenanigans in Berkeley. It's painfully obvious that they're just violent progressives, using "anti-fascism" as a fig leaf to excuse any act of political violence they feel the urge to commit.

If your goal is to convince people that Antifa aren't just politically violent progressives, you've got a long row to hoe. Try not to sprain anything.
I'm not one to quibble over semantics nor am I an Antifa expert, so I won't argue against. I would add "fringe" to the 5 word or less description.

But they sure as hell ain't Democrats. Antifa isn't supported by the Democratic power structure, and Antifa doesn't support the Democratic power structure. They are fringe outliers. Agreed?
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Old 23rd October 2018, 09:51 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
There are no good Antifa, just like there are no good Nazis (apart from dead ones, in both cases). Again, I stress I'm not an expert on US politics, but I don't see many conservatives balaclava'd up roaming the country doling out violence and intimidation to people whose speech they disagree with.
Yea it isn't like those nice proud boys who the police like so much they never bother to arrest them when the set up sniper nests or beat up the scum of the earth. But then the ANTIFA publish videos of it and suddenly these fine young men get their lives ruined for no reason.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 09:52 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
So now you're going to give a few examples of the 'good' people in this officially terrorist organisation...

...or maybe you're not.
Officially terrorist? You must be joking.

Have you ever talked to a member of Antifa?

You're the one making the claim that they are all evil scum. How about you show some backbone and support that claim?
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Old 23rd October 2018, 09:54 AM   #23
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Antifa isn't a terrorist Organization.
If you think it is, you don't know what Terrorism means.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 10:04 AM   #24
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Antifa is a terrorist Organization.
If you think it isn't, you don't know what Terrorism means.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 10:05 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Antifa is a terrorist Organization.
If you think it is, you don't know what Terrorism means.
Beautiful.

Typo aside, could you explain why it's a terrorist organisation? And bear in mind, that standard will be applied to other groups as well.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 10:08 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No argument there. It does, however, seem irrelevant to what I said.
It's entirely relevant. Conservatives reasonably assume that if you claim to be anti-fascist, you probably mean anti-conservative. There's nothing "telling" about that, unless it's telling you that progressives conflate conservatism with fascism to excuse their political violence. Something you weren't arguing with a moment ago, but will probably start arguing with now.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 10:10 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The reason is the 2nd Unite the Right in Washington ...
... which showed the GOP that their extremists are a tiny minority of scared teenagers who need police protection from the vastly larger number of counter-protesters: it is the starkest proof that right-wingers don't have a silent majority behind them, progressives do.

So in order for militant far-right groups not to get beaten up wherever they show, police and the public have to be primed to see Antifa as the enemy, in effect recruiting the police to Team Nazi.
This is 100% the Goebbels handbook, and we know from communications from US Nazi groups that they are following it.
I'd argue that US police are naturally inclined to see fascists and white supremacists as okay regardless, and thus need little priming. THis is why they stood around in Ferguson until someone plowed their car into a crowd.

Compare to Ferguson and Baltimore, where police forces simply attacked large groups of area residents and high schoolers, respectively. They can show up in the hundreds or thousands with riot gear, military surplus, and the like when they want to.

ETA: Still no link between Antifa and any notable Democrat, though.

Last edited by Mumbles; 23rd October 2018 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 10:11 AM   #28
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No, anti-facist doesn't mean anti-conservative.
If you uphold democracy, Antifa has no beef with you.
But plenty Republicans support voter suppression aimed at minorities, which is explicitly anti-democratic.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 10:15 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Ferguson
I don't think that is anything that our correspondent won't dredge up Ferguson about...
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Old 23rd October 2018, 10:24 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Antifa isn't a terrorist Organization.
If you think it is, you don't know what Terrorism means.
Terrorism is, in the broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror among masses of people; or fear to achieve a financial, political, religious or ideological aim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism
Antifa uses violence to intimidate and suppress political dissent.

I'm not sure how you can have a meaningful definition of terrorism that excludes Antifa. Go go right ahead and try to come up with one if you want. But why bother? The topic of the thread is disassociating mainstream progressives from the violent ones. I can totally understand not wanting to be associated with terrorists. But if you don't even believe they're terrorists... There's a lot of conflicted responses in this thread. On the one hand, there's the "those guys are bad and they're not with us". On the other hand, there's the "those guys aren't really that bad".

So which is it gonna be for you, TGZ? Antifa don't represent mainstream progressive values and tactics? Or... they kinda do?
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Old 23rd October 2018, 10:28 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
No, anti-facist doesn't mean anti-conservative.
If you uphold democracy, Antifa has no beef with you.
Explain that to downtown Berkeley. Explain that to downtown Portland.

Quote:
But plenty Republicans support voter suppression aimed at minorities, which is explicitly anti-democratic.
I'm sure plenty do.

I'm also sure that you can't name more than a handful of them.

I'm also sure you can't name any of them that have been the target of Antifa violence for that reason.

I'm also sure you can't actually excuse political violence on the basis of supporting "voter suppression aimed at minorities", even though you're trying to make it look like you can.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 10:40 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Terrorism is, in the broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror among masses of people; or fear to achieve a financial, political, religious or ideological aim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism
Antifa uses violence to intimidate and suppress political dissent.
Prove it.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 10:42 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Terrorism is, in the broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror among masses of people; or fear to achieve a financial, political, religious or ideological aim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism
Antifa uses violence to intimidate and suppress political dissent.
I'm not sure how you can have a meaningful definition of terrorism that excludes Antifa. Go go right ahead and try to come up with one if you want. But why bother? The topic of the thread is disassociating mainstream progressives from the violent ones. I can totally understand not wanting to be associated with terrorists. But if you don't even believe they're terrorists... There's a lot of conflicted responses in this thread. On the one hand, there's the "those guys are bad and they're not with us". On the other hand, there's the "those guys aren't really that bad".

So which is it gonna be for you, TGZ? Antifa don't represent mainstream progressive values and tactics? Or... they kinda do?
Support this claim.

Otherwise it looks like you are saying that fascists, proud boys, and Nazis are expressing political dissent when they show up with bats, stomp protesters, and drive into crowds.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 10:52 AM   #34
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Itís laughable to see conservatives try so desperately to link mainstream liberals to violent mobs of criminals when mainstream conservatives are on record supporting violent mobs of criminals.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 10:54 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Prove it.
You're kidding, right?
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:00 AM   #36
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're kidding, right?
Just because you feel less safe because of Antifa doesn't make it an organization bend on causing widespread terror
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:13 AM   #37
baron
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Beautiful.

Typo aside, could you explain why it's a terrorist organisation? And bear in mind, that standard will be applied to other groups as well.
Maybe you'll consider reading the article I linked to that explains it?
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:17 AM   #38
baron
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea it isn't like those nice proud boys who the police like so much they never bother to arrest them when the set up sniper nests or beat up the scum of the earth. But then the ANTIFA publish videos of it and suddenly these fine young men get their lives ruined for no reason.
Two gangs of thugs fighting each other. Do these Proud Boys attempt to silence free speech? If so, they're fascists too. Are they officially named as a terrorist organisation? If so, then they're terrorists as well. What has this to do with the point I made?
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:18 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's entirely relevant. Conservatives reasonably assume that if you claim to be anti-fascist, you probably mean anti-conservative. There's nothing "telling" about that
If you say "I'm anti-stupid" and I think, absent further information, that you mean "Anti-Belz...", then I probably think I'm stupid.

So why would conservatives assume anti-fascism means anti-them?
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:19 AM   #40
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GOP = Neo Nazis.
See, two can play at this game.
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