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Old 6th November 2018, 07:57 AM   #361
uke2se
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
And so you would assassinate Congressmen involved in the decision?

I'm not dispassionate. I'm just not a friggin' nutcase. The exact same reasoning (with some less reliable beliefs) is precisely what led to the Squirrel Hill shooter, a man who felt aggrieved by the dastardly invasion sponsored by the Jews, a man losing his race to other races because of this invasion.

Of course, you and I regard both the facts and the values (race matters) as nonsense. But the same fundamental reasoning that would justify shooting Republicans is used to kill Jews.
I agree. There's no justification for doing what that guy did.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:58 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
What's the solution then? Quick as you like. Election today.
I can't tell you the solution.

Personally, probably won't make it to the polls today, since I'm in Massachusetts and my races are assuredly blue-tilted (aside from the governor, but he seems okay, not great, not objectionable).

If I happen by, I'll vote, though my sending a "message" will matter not one whit to anyone but me.

Devolving into incivility is not the way out of this mess, however. That much is clear.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:00 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I can't tell you the solution.

Personally, probably won't make it to the polls today, since I'm in Massachusetts and my races are assuredly blue-tilted (aside from the governor, but he seems okay, not great, not objectionable).

If I happen by, I'll vote, though my sending a "message" will matter not one whit to anyone but me.

Devolving into incivility is not the way out of this mess, however. That much is clear.
You're effectively removing a weapon from one side that the other side uses with gusto and effectiveness.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:00 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Then you can sit on your ivory tower and look on as the GOP sweep every election.

At least you never gave up the moral high ground. That's just as good as stopping dangerous GOP policy, right?
No, but it's better than becoming dangerous in just the same damned way.

I support decent Republicans. I want them to regain some power in their party. If Romney runs in 2020, I would vote in the Republican primary to support him.

You don't overcome monsters by becoming one yourself.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:01 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'll get the word out.
You ask me a question and pretend I'm being arrogant when I give my opinion.

You're being a dick, honestly. You give your opinion freely, and I gave mine. No difference at all, aside from content.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:02 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
No, but it's better than becoming dangerous in just the same damned way.

I support decent Republicans. I want them to regain some power in their party. If Romney runs in 2020, I would vote in the Republican primary to support him.

You don't overcome monsters by becoming one yourself.
But you lose the election by imposing rules on yourself that your opponent won't play by.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:03 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You pragmatist, you.
Guilty as charged.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:03 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I agree. There's no justification for doing what that guy did.
Which guy?

Just the Jew killer or both the Jew killer and the guy shooting at GOP lawmakers?

Sorry, your response is a little unclear. I regard both as horrible individuals (possible mental incapacities notwithstanding).
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:04 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You're effectively removing a weapon from one side that the other side uses with gusto and effectiveness.
Yes.

In the same way that we don't respond to chemical weapon attacks in Syria by launching our own chemical weapons.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:04 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You're effectively removing a weapon from one side that the other side uses with gusto and effectiveness.
No we're telling you not to trade a symbolic feel good victory for a meaningful one.

From the same David Wong article I quoted earlier (again language cleaned up for MA Purposes, bolding mine):

Quote:
But politics shouldn't be fun. And the reason the right controls every level of government is that they're willing to do the boring parts. They'll go to the city council meetings, they'll vote for the local (crap), they'll actually follow through with their boycott threats. "But they've unfairly redrawn the election map!" Sure, but how did they obtain the power to do that?

They seize power because A) they believe they're entitled to it, and B) they translate that entitlement to action. If you want to copy something from the other side, (censored)ing copy that.

That just goes back to that one lesson no movie will ever teach you: Accomplishing great things isn't just hard, it's boring. Important subjects are tedious and have no entertainment value whatsoever. Standing in line to vote is boring, the actual vote itself is boring. Too boring for many of us to tolerate, even though we say the entire fate of the world hangs in the balance.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:05 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I agree. There's no justification for doing what that guy did.
Yep death totals don't matter as long as due process of law is at least vaguely followed. They should die like the worthless vermin all the poors are anyway.

Civility worth more than someone else's life.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:05 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Which guy?

Just the Jew killer or both the Jew killer and the guy shooting at GOP lawmakers?

Sorry, your response is a little unclear. I regard both as horrible individuals (possible mental incapacities notwithstanding).
Take a pick. There's no justification for either of them. I was agreeing with you.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:06 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No we're telling you not to trade a symbolic feel good victory for a meaningful one.
That's what I'm arguing. A moral victory isn't as good as a real one.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:07 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You're effectively removing a weapon from one side that the other side uses with gusto and effectiveness.
Trump won by bald-faced lies creating fear and dread regarding Democrats.

You want the Democrats to make up apocalyptic ******** about Trump and the GOP in order to regain control as well?

Trump says that Dems want open borders and don't care about crime. Should Dems say Trump wants death camps and doesn't care about law at all? That is an appropriate hyperbolic response.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:07 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep death totals don't matter as long as due process of law is at least vaguely followed. They should die like the worthless vermin all the poors are anyway.

Civility worth more than someone else's life.
I'm not going to defend the guy who shot the GOP congressman. I don't believe the congressman should be in office, but I don't think he should be killed either. I leave those kinds of ideas to the Nazis who have taken over the GOP.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:08 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
That's what I'm arguing. A moral victory isn't as good as a real one.
Okay. Running Senator McFartFace out of a restaurant accomplishes absolutely nothing.

Winning an election accomplishes a lot.

"We run their people out of restaurants. They run ours out of office. That's why they are winning." - Bill Maher.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:08 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Trump won by bald-faced lies creating fear and dread regarding Democrats.

You want the Democrats to make up apocalyptic ******** about Trump and the GOP in order to regain control as well?

Trump says that Dems want open borders and don't care about crime. Should Dems say Trump wants death camps and doesn't care about law at all? That is an appropriate hyperbolic response.
Sure. If it helps them win. The system is already broken. In order to fix it you need to get it out of the hands of the ones who broke it by whatever means necessary.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:09 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay. Running Senator McFartFace out of a restaurant accomplishes absolutely nothing.

Winning an election accomplishes a lot.

"We run people their people out of restaurants. They run ours out of office. That's why they are winning." - Bill Maher.
There's no reason we can't do both. It's not an either/or situation.

ETA: I also don't agree that protesting McConnell at a restaurant accomplishes nothing. I don't think it accomplishes much, but it's not meaningless.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:12 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Then you can sit on your ivory tower and look on as the GOP sweep every election.

At least you never gave up the moral high ground. That's just as good as stopping dangerous GOP policy, right?
Do you really believe that being more uncivil will turn elections?
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:13 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
There's no reason we can't do both. It's not an either/or situation.
But "we" don't.

Again I'll believe this "Blue Wave" of impassioned Democratic voters stepping away from getting fed a constant drip of outrage from Facebook algorithm and sharing memes about how we're the gonna be the new Nazi Germany if we don't do something.... and actually voting when I see it.

Acting outraged and acting like you are outraged are two different things. Right now sadly the people on the correct side of history are just so much better at the former than the latter.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:22 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But "we" don't.

Again I'll believe this "Blue Wave" of impassioned Democratic voters stepping away from getting fed a constant drip of outrage from Facebook algorithm and sharing memes about how we're the gonna be the new Nazi Germany if we don't do something.... and actually voting when I see it.

Acting outraged and acting like you are outraged are two different things. Right now sadly the people on the correct side of history are just so much better at the former than the latter.
I certainly hope you're wrong.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:28 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I certainly hope you're wrong.
And I do as well. More than you know

But literally everything about history says I'm not.

That's the problem with the Left right now, and always has been to a degree. They keep saying they think they world is coming to an end but keep acting like fanboys mad that a new film messed up their favorite franchises' cannon. They are more mad at the narrative than the reality.

I'm not saying (g)you shouldn't be pissed off. I'm saying you shouldn't be this kind of pissed off.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:30 AM   #383
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The opposition, being without political power, is entitled to be less civil than the actual people running the government.
Republicans are Snowflakes when they can't deal with vocal criticism.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:35 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Take a pick. There's no justification for either of them. I was agreeing with you.
Okay, good to hear. Wasn't clear from context.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:37 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Sure. If it helps them win. The system is already broken. In order to fix it you need to get it out of the hands of the ones who broke it by whatever means necessary.
You won't fix matters by entrenching the bad behavior.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:38 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You won't fix matters by entrenching the bad behavior.
It's already entrenched. We also can't appeal to Republicans' better nature, nor shame them into changing. It's been tried, and it turns out they have no better nature and no sense of shame.
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Old 6th November 2018, 08:40 AM   #387
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It's odd to see someone ranting about low voter turnout at a point when we don't know the turnout for today.

But aside from that, no, Democrat voter turnout is not a measure of how bad people really think Republicans are. It's a measure of a combination of that and how different the Democrats really appear. And the Democrats have spent years functionally being Republicans anyway.
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Old 6th November 2018, 09:21 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
There's no reason we can't do both. It's not an either/or situation.

ETA: I also don't agree that protesting McConnell at a restaurant accomplishes nothing. I don't think it accomplishes much, but it's not meaningless.
There is a decent argument and decent evidence that doing the former makes doing the latter harder. It motivates the other side to vote too.

There's also decent evidence that the appearance of chaos and lawlessness in society makes people vote more conservatively and makes conservatives more motivated to vote.
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Old 6th November 2018, 09:29 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
There is a decent argument and decent evidence that doing the former makes doing the latter harder. It motivates the other side to vote too.

There's also decent evidence that the appearance of chaos and lawlessness in society makes people vote more conservatively and makes conservatives more motivated to vote.
I don't think protesting someone, even as they are having dinner at a restaurant, constitute lawlessness or chaos in any way shape or form. In fact, I think it demonstrates that people are paying attention and that they are willing to utilize the system (in this case, their first amendment rights).
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Old 6th November 2018, 09:32 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I don't think protesting someone, even as they are having dinner at a restaurant, constitute lawlessness or chaos in any way shape or form. In fact, I think it demonstrates that people are paying attention and that they are willing to utilize the system (in this case, their first amendment rights).
Sure, and marching in Washington with the North Vietnamese flag to protest the war isn't lawlessness, but sure as hell doesn't help the cause of peace. The Right is very good at demonizing causes that a majority of Americans may be inclined to support. Don't play into their hands.
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Old 6th November 2018, 09:39 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sure, and marching in Washington with the North Vietnamese flag to protest the war isn't lawlessness, but sure as hell doesn't help the cause of peace. The Right is very good at demonizing causes that a majority of Americans may be inclined to support. Don't play into their hands.
And they are going to do that regardless of what you actually do. It's what they do. And the people who are open to listening to them will listen to them no matter what you do. It's what they do.

If you are offended enough by a North Vietnamese flag during a peace protest, or someone berating Mitch McConnell at a restaurant to stop fighting for Democratic causes (hell, let's just say 'democracy'), then you were never going to in the first place.
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Old 6th November 2018, 09:43 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
And they are going to do that regardless of what you actually do. It's what they do. And the people who are open to listening to them will listen to them no matter what you do. It's what they do.

If you are offended enough by a North Vietnamese flag during a peace protest, or someone berating Mitch McConnell at a restaurant to stop fighting for Democratic causes (hell, let's just say 'democracy'), then you were never going to in the first place.
Great. Yet again that's a good reason why it's not going to be your fault when you lose.

The Democrats have enough of those. They have a wall to floor bookcase full of reasons why them losing isn't their fault and I agree with most all of them.

Your moral high ground is sufficiently high. Put some artillery on it and start winning.

Again from David Wong (probably should have just posted the entire articel at this point)

Quote:
Being a progressive is kind of like being a nerd in high school -- your identity is built around being a powerless outcast, and thus gaining power or popularity feels like a betrayal. Believing in an inherently unfair system is great if it motivates you to help make it more fair, but every so often, it just means we have a ready-made excuse for when we fail to achieve that goal.

If Trump's party holds onto one or both houses of Congress on Tuesday, it will be due to a whole bunch of narrow races going their way. If so, there will be many articles on left-wing blogs about how voter suppression won the GOP the election because of new voter ID laws and registration purges turning away thousands of votes. This will completely ignore the fact that 70-plus percent of us who weren't suppressed just chose to stay home, and the fact that a strong enough turnout would have crushed those suppression efforts like a horse stepping on a single human testicle.

We'll talk about gerrymandering, corporate campaign donations, the undemocratic Senate in which a vote in Wyoming carries as much power as 80 votes in California. Never mind bitter political battles that have been won by "victims" over the decades, who each faced unfair/rigged systems and (censored) won anyway. We can't acknowledge that we can in fact overcome the unfairness if we push hard enough, because that means if we fail to do it, that it's our fault. And nothing can ever be our fault, because victim-blaming is wrong and also we're always the victims.
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Old 6th November 2018, 09:49 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm not going to defend the guy who shot the GOP congressman. I don't believe the congressman should be in office, but I don't think he should be killed either. I leave those kinds of ideas to the Nazis who have taken over the GOP.
And if the government is trying to kill you it is just politics nothing to get violent about.
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Old 6th November 2018, 09:50 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
And they are going to do that regardless of what you actually do. It's what they do. And the people who are open to listening to them will listen to them no matter what you do. It's what they do.

If you are offended enough by a North Vietnamese flag during a peace protest, or someone berating Mitch McConnell at a restaurant to stop fighting for Democratic causes (hell, let's just say 'democracy'), then you were never going to in the first place.
********.

If we give them pictures of boorish folk berating public figures (and, honestly, few deserve it more than McConnell), then the Right can convince more folk that the Left is unhinged.

If they have to make it up out of whole cloth, fewer will be turned off by the Right's invective.

Your nihilism is simply ridiculous. Jettison all of your values, because those who vote against you would've done so anyway, and you are sure to become moral again later.

Sure. That's probably how things work.
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Old 6th November 2018, 09:53 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
********.

If we give them pictures of boorish folk berating public figures (and, honestly, few deserve it more than McConnell), then the Right can convince more folk that the Left is unhinged.

If they have to make it up out of whole cloth, fewer will be turned off by the Right's invective.
Doesn't really seem that way. Trump makes things up out of whole cloth and they become the new truth of the right and unquestionable.
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Old 6th November 2018, 09:56 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
********.

If we give them pictures of boorish folk berating public figures (and, honestly, few deserve it more than McConnell), then the Right can convince more folk that the Left is unhinged.

If they have to make it up out of whole cloth, fewer will be turned off by the Right's invective.

Your nihilism is simply ridiculous. Jettison all of your values, because those who vote against you would've done so anyway, and you are sure to become moral again later.

Sure. That's probably how things work.
I'm not a nihilist. I'm simply saying that if Democrats don't start playing the game using the same rules as their opponents, they will keep losing. That said, they will still have a moral high ground, because the GOP ceeded that years ago.

In order to fundamentally change a broken system, either you fix by first aquiring power, or you have a revolution.
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Old 6th November 2018, 10:00 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
And they are going to do that regardless of what you actually do. It's what they do.
That doesn't justify helping them do it.
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Old 6th November 2018, 10:04 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And if the government is trying to kill you it is just politics nothing to get violent about.
How are they trying to kill you?
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Old 6th November 2018, 10:12 AM   #399
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Democrats have a long bucket list of anti-Voter supression measures ready to go, should they take the House.
This, hopefully, will make it easier to take the Senate in 2020.
As always, when it comes to Democrats, Cursed Monkey Paw Rules apply.
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Old 6th November 2018, 10:34 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I disagree. I want to see more of that kind of thing. More protests of all (peaceful) kinds. Civility doesn't matter anymore.
Indeed, the point isn't to be civil, it's to call attention to an issue.

(And the idea that Mitch McConnell, of all people, should be treated with the upmost respect, after all the hard work he's done to ruin the US' democracy, is absurd.)
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