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Old 8th November 2018, 03:17 PM   #521
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What about Atlantic, Slate columnists? Does Matt Yglesias count?

https://twitter.com/DavidRutz/status...2Face.mu.nu%2F

This one's a tweet, so should be short enough to grok without having to go to any special effort.
It’s got to sting that a guy most of us had to google is literally the best you can do, while I can quote the man you helped elect president saying much worse.
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Old 8th November 2018, 03:45 PM   #522
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Quote:
Police responded Wednesday night when anti-fascist activists showed up at the Washington, D.C., home of Tucker Carlson and began banging on the door and shouting threats like, “We know where you sleep at night.”

The Fox News host wasn’t home and neither were any of his four children. But his wife was there and quickly locked herself in the pantry and called 911.

“It wasn’t a protest. It was a threat,” Carlson told The Washington Post on Thursday. “They weren’t protesting anything specific that I had said. They weren’t asking me to change anything. They weren’t protesting a policy or advocating for legislation. ... They were threatening me and my family and telling me to leave my own neighborhood in the city that I grew up in.”
https://www.yahoo.com/news/anti-fasc...191703651.html
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Old 8th November 2018, 03:51 PM   #523
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay but here's the issue.

It's naive to the point of intentionally being disingenuous to pretend you can keep "The Mob" aimed only at proper targets for very long. A worked up Mob hasn't magically become a rational and balanced force just because it has briefly found itself pointed at a legitimate threat.

You know how this goes and you know what it's going to lead to. Sure you run the racist out of the restaurant. Great pat yourself on the back. Then someone else in your tribe who wants to prove he's just a little purer to the cause then you are runs someone who's not racist but just a little racially insensitive. Then someone one ups them by running someone who just isn't as anti-racist as they think they should be. Then someone will get run out someone for not checking their privilege or some there straw SJW nonsense simply for cause purity reasons.

That's how how causes always collapse. Refining the "enemy" from "I oppose X to I oppose people who don't oppose X to I oppose people who don't oppose X enough for my taste."

And that's not even taking into account that sooner or later someone is going to be wrong. What about the guy eating dinner with his family who just looks like Tucker Carson? Or Alex Jones. Or whatever "PunnyTitle WhitePersonName" is the current viral racial incident on Youtube?

Think that's hyperbole? Think that's a strawman? Think it won't happen?

What about the guy who ran down the protesters in Charlotesville? No wait, not him the guy who's sole sin was selling his Dodge Charger to a car dealer who later sold it to to guy who would almost six months later use it to run down protesters in Charlottesville? The guy who had to flee his home and have police protection for over a week because people tripping over each other to be the first person to "Out the Alt-righter" and "make them famous" to prove their purity to the cause tracked down the license plate number of the car used in the attack via online public records on and didn't bother to fact check or just remember that public records aren't always kept perfectly update to date.

Joel Vangheluwe didn't hurt anybody. Had nothing to do with it. Wasn't even in the same time zone as the incident. Hell he was a Leftist who opposed Trump. But because the cause purity internet sleuths could "7 Degrees of Kevin Bacon" him to racism the Michigan State Police had to put him, his wife, and his children into a safe house.

Go to any Reddit thread, hell any thread here, or hop on Twitter, after an incident and you can find the same mentality. I shouldn't have to explain to anyone how bad that can go.
Perhaps you should see how Indivisible have managed to not do what you have suggested will happen here.

In the case of Carlson, IMO, karma is a bitch, and he reaps what he sows - if he expounds racism, it can (and should) run him into difficulties in his everyday life - his choice.

Its one of the reasons why I generally don't like deplatforming of alt-right speakers; IMO, its a lost opportunity to publicly harass them for their extremist and racist views.
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Old 8th November 2018, 03:55 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Perhaps you should see how Indivisible have managed to not do what you have suggested will happen here.

In the case of Carlson, IMO, karma is a bitch, and he reaps what he sows - if he expounds racism, it can (and should) run him into difficulties in his everyday life - his choice.

Its one of the reasons why I generally don't like deplatforming of alt-right speakers; IMO, its a lost opportunity to publicly harass them for their extremist and racist views.
Double-edged sword for public figures, though. Anything you say about anything is sure to piss off someone and have them howling at you in public. Maybe they should be cut a little slack when they are offstage.
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Old 8th November 2018, 05:26 PM   #525
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Wow, what a scoop. Thanks for keeping us informed on all the breaking news that's already been posted and discussed for hours.
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Old 8th November 2018, 05:34 PM   #526
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Although it's fun to think of horrible, smug, stains upon humanity experiencing an occasional comeuppance, I am not down with harassing these creeps on their private time in restaurants, at home, etc. Someone like Tucker Carlson is not going to be intimidated into being a better person so what's the point? The dude is just going to use the event to further his narrative of victimhood. Plus, he's a TV personality. He's now getting enormous exposure and of course sympathy from the more humane among us.

So congratulations, morons. You just found a way to make Tucker Carlson more effective at spreading his hateful crap, which I assume to be the opposite of your objective.


Ditto smartcooky; I think deplatforming is generally a bad idea because it feeds the narrative that white/conservative/Nazi/whatever-the-hell-Milo-is/etc. are the real victims in society.

Better to starve the beast of the attention it craves than to feed it more that it ever needs.
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Old 8th November 2018, 06:17 PM   #527
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Links to youtube videos don't provide quite the specificity I was hoping for. Against my better judgement, I'll watch later on when I have 20 minutes to spare. Next time please provide a time marker, if not a typed quotation.
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Actually, I think theprestige posted that stuff to mock liberals for being so tame.
@theprestige Well, at least I nailed this part. I watched the first video. I suppose johnny is right that you're having me on, seeing as the CNN discussion was unrelated to the crap you posted. That seems the more generous interpretation than jumping to the conclusion that you're delusional.

Because I don't appreciate having my time wasted, I won't be bothering with video #2 nor your other links.
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Old 8th November 2018, 08:35 PM   #528
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The Carlson incident sounds horrible. Checking for defenders.

Quote:
“The incident that took place at Tucker’s home last night was reprehensible. The violent threats and intimidation tactics toward him and his family are completely unacceptable," said a statement from Fox News CEO Suzanne Scott and Fox News President Jay Wallace. "We as a nation have become far too intolerant of different points of view. ... Those of us in the media and in politics bear a special obligation to all Americans, to find common ground.”

"Something @CNN and @foxnews can agree on: it’s completely unacceptable to threaten a TV host and his/her family," said a tweet from CNN's communications team.

Members of the media expressed the same sentiment.

"Fighting Tucker Carlson’s ideas is an American right. Targeting his home and terrorizing his family is an act of monstrous cowardice. Obviously don’t do this, but also, take no pleasure in it happening. Feeding monsters just makes more monsters," CBS late night host Stephen Colbert wrote on Twitter.

"The 'group' that staged this action call themselves anti-fascist. Do they understand how fascist is it to attack a family home like this?," wrote NPR's Scott Simon. "Denounce him on Twitter.. Boycott his sponsors. Not this."
Linky.

Quote:
First, to be clear, most liberals did not defend the antifa action against Carlson, and many denounced it. Those included several media analysts at CNN, and the network itself, which was recently the recipient of one of the pipe bombs delivered to liberal leaders around the country, allegedly by a white-supremacist zealot. The New York Times’ Michelle Goldberg, who countenanced the public shaming of Trump administration officials at restaurants, drew a line in this case. Even a senior analyst at Media Matters for America, a nonprofit dedicated to tracking and criticizing conservative media outlets such as Fox News, called the protesters’ behavior “way over the line” and “unacceptable.”

This seemed like a moment—rare these days—when liberals and conservatives could come together to agree on a common boundary. It was almost that—but not quite. For every denunciation, there was a slew of replies or quote-tweets that suggested Carlson had it coming. Some came from anonymous Twitter users and assorted randos, but not all of them.

Vox’s Matthew Yglesias is a sharp and provocative pundit, one who doesn’t mind breaking taboos (including some that are liberal doctrine), so his views shouldn’t be taken as representative of anyone else’s. Still, to see 1,600 likes on a tweet excusing “terrorizing” a media figure’s “family” was jarring. (He appears to have deleted the tweets.) It’s the kind of dehumanizing sentiment that liberals have come to expect from Trump and his supporters. It now seems to be infecting the other side.
Linky.

So we had to reach all the way to a Vox pundit to find a public left figure defending the incident.
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Old 9th November 2018, 03:20 AM   #529
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
"Crybaby Jim Acosta manhandles a female intern and the leftist press rushes to his defense, but a journalist’s wife and children are terrorized by a Democrat/Antifa mob and the mainstream media couldn’t care less."

-- James Woods (Nov 8, 2018)
That's a lie. You can watch the video yourself. Why do you lie?
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Old 9th November 2018, 04:47 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's a lie. You can watch the video yourself. Why do you lie?
Better yet IMO, why mindlessly parrot celebrities on one side or another just to get a rise out of people you disagree with, for reasons you can't even articulate?
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Old 9th November 2018, 05:03 AM   #531
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Yglesias must have had a brainfart. He's usually more careful.

An explanation isn't the same as an endorsement. But it could be read a kind of tacit endorsement or expression of sympathy.
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Old 9th November 2018, 07:29 AM   #532
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Although it's fun to think of horrible, smug, stains upon humanity experiencing an occasional comeuppance, I am not down with harassing these creeps on their private time in restaurants, at home, etc. Someone like Tucker Carlson is not going to be intimidated into being a better person so what's the point? The dude is just going to use the event to further his narrative of victimhood. Plus, he's a TV personality. He's now getting enormous exposure and of course sympathy from the more humane among us.

So congratulations, morons. You just found a way to make Tucker Carlson more effective at spreading his hateful crap, which I assume to be the opposite of your objective.


Ditto smartcooky; I think deplatforming is generally a bad idea because it feeds the narrative that white/conservative/Nazi/whatever-the-hell-Milo-is/etc. are the real victims in society.

Better to starve the beast of the attention it craves than to feed it more that it ever needs.
That's not quite what Cooky is saying, he'd make sure they get more attention than even deplatforming them and his tactics would likely result in playing into the martyr narrative even more.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its one of the reasons why I generally don't like deplatforming of alt-right speakers; IMO, its a lost opportunity to publicly harass them for their extremist and racist views.
So what has Carlson said or done that is so bad? I know next to nothing about the guy except that he wears a bow tie.
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Old 9th November 2018, 08:28 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Better yet IMO, why mindlessly parrot celebrities on one side or another just to get a rise out of people you disagree with, for reasons you can't even articulate?

Probably because his attempts to argue without parroting celebrities look like this:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post12481100
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Old 9th November 2018, 09:30 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Probably because his attempts to argue without parroting celebrities look like this:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post12481100
Wow, kind of a hall of shame.
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Old 9th November 2018, 10:13 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Better yet IMO, why mindlessly parrot celebrities on one side or another just to get a rise out of people you disagree with, for reasons you can't even articulate?
At this point it's either:

1) They're trolling,

2) They're lying for Jesus Trump. Win at all costs and all that.

3) They really believe what they say.

I do hope to all of hell's demon princes that it isn't (3), because that would mean that the lot of them have gone insane.
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Old 9th November 2018, 10:59 AM   #536
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
That's not quite what Cooky is saying, he'd make sure they get more attention than even deplatforming them and his tactics would likely result in playing into the martyr narrative even more.
Cooky can speak for himself, of course. My preference is to let these fools speak and people can respond to what they say as opposed to what other people are outraged thinking that they might say.

Case in point that Milo guy. He was already a lightning rod before I had ever heard of him, let alone heard him speak for himself. So I was pleased when Bill Maher gave him a few minutes to speak on Real Time because that allowed me to make my own decision that Milo was indeed an attention-seeking dbag with nothing interesting to say. What have we heard from him since? Not much - he spoke his peace on HBO, a much bigger percentage of the population shrugged, and now no one cares.

The best thing for a creep like Richard Spencer? Let him speak to a packed house and have all who think he's a creep quietly get up and walk out, or turn their backs on him or something. Have folks positioned in the crowd make random, loud farting noises while he's speaking. Or just let there be a poorly-sold arena for him. All kinds of things could be used to protest his hateful rhetoric, but if you punch him or "deplatform" him then you make him correct in his assertions that his opponents are violent.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
So what has Carlson said or done that is so bad? I know next to nothing about the guy except that he wears a bow tie.
I do too, but that part is irrelevant. Here's a long and deep dive on Carlson. Basically he's another talking head on TV who makes money (a lot of money) from polarizing the American people through cynical punditry masquerading as journalism.
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Old 10th November 2018, 05:02 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
At this point it's either:

1) They're trolling,

2) They're lying for Jesus Trump. Win at all costs and all that.

3) They really believe what they say.

I do hope to all of hell's demon princes that it isn't (3), because that would mean that the lot of them have gone insane.
Can't it be kind of a mix, a turd goulash, if you will, of all three?

The alt right are not very serious people, quite often. They like getting a rise out of people, they don't mind lying, and they at least sort of suspect there's an element of truth to the things they say.
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Old 11th November 2018, 03:42 PM   #538
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Bullhonkies.

We have to return to a civil society, a place where disagreement doesn't make one my enemy, generally speaking.
I'm reminded about the House of commons.

Quote:
Members may speak only from where they were called, which must be within the House. They may not speak from the floor of the House between the red lines (traditional supposed to be two sword-lengths apart). Also, the Speaker will not call a Member in the gallery if there is room downstairs. Members must stand whilst speaking but if they are unable to do so they are allowed to address the House seated.
Politics was traditionally dirty and the rules were set up by Parliament to prevent it becoming literally bloody.

I don't know how one goes about getting it back to a civilised course - where norms and customs are important, and people are reminded why they are important.
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Old 12th November 2018, 04:51 AM   #539
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay but here's the issue.

It's naive to the point of intentionally being disingenuous to pretend you can keep "The Mob" aimed only at proper targets for very long. A worked up Mob hasn't magically become a rational and balanced force just because it has briefly found itself pointed at a legitimate threat.
This is of course why all protests and counter protests are immoral and wrong.

Look at the criminal mob from the march on Selma, they had to be put down hard to prevent the spreading lawlessness.
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Old 12th November 2018, 04:55 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Cooky can speak for himself, of course. My preference is to let these fools speak and people can respond to what they say as opposed to what other people are outraged thinking that they might say.

Case in point that Milo guy. He was already a lightning rod before I had ever heard of him, let alone heard him speak for himself. So I was pleased when Bill Maher gave him a few minutes to speak on Real Time because that allowed me to make my own decision that Milo was indeed an attention-seeking dbag with nothing interesting to say. What have we heard from him since? Not much - he spoke his peace on HBO, a much bigger percentage of the population shrugged, and now no one cares.

The best thing for a creep like Richard Spencer? Let him speak to a packed house and have all who think he's a creep quietly get up and walk out, or turn their backs on him or something. Have folks positioned in the crowd make random, loud farting noises while he's speaking. Or just let there be a poorly-sold arena for him. All kinds of things could be used to protest his hateful rhetoric, but if you punch him or "deplatform" him then you make him correct in his assertions that his opponents are violent.
And the people who are wrong are the counter protesters like in Charlottesville. If they had not been there and hence antagonizing the good people nothing would have happened except totally ok stuff like nazis chanting outside synagogues. If they nazis hadn't had to defend themselves by taking pot shots at protesters and the police knew that kind of thing is ok why else did they not arrest the guy who did it? Of course then the horrible antifa released video of these totally ok things and suddenly they become crimes.
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Old 12th November 2018, 10:41 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
The Carlson incident sounds horrible. Checking for defenders.



Linky.



Linky.

So we had to reach all the way to a Vox pundit to find a public left figure defending the incident.
Interesteing twitter thread on threadreader app (easier to read there than twitter)

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...652570624.html


Quote:
One last point on the Tucker Carlson protest, you don't wanna believe the protestors, why not go with the police version of events?

Cause there is a police report.

I'm gonna say that's a more reliable source than Mr. Carlson.

And it completely contradicts him.

Here goes.
First, the police interacted w/ the protestors as they were leaving & they didn't arrest anyone.

They actually saw the person spray-paint the anarchist symbol on the driveway.

The protestors were walking away slowly. Two walked with canes (yes). No one tried to run.
BTW there were 4 legal observers at this protest. People going to someone's house to break in, don't usually take legal observers.
The police talked to the protestors about not having a problem w/ them exercising their first amendment rights but that spray-painting the driveway was crossing the line. That was the issue.
If the police had received a frantic 911 call from Mrs. Carlson saying she was terrified, had locked herself in her pantry & people were trying to break into her house, there is no way that the police would have let the protestors go. They would have made arrests.
They would have sent so many squad cars to that location if she represented what was happening in that way. Police tend to over-react. They didn't here. That tells me Mrs. Carlson did not call & say she was being terrorized.
In the police report, there is no mention whatsoever of any damage to the front door of Mr. Carlson's residence. Not a scratch. This is consistent w/ protestors' saying they simply knocked on the door and then left a placard resting on it before retreating to the street.
There is no mention in the police report of anyone chanting anything about pipe bombs or chanting any sort of threats against Mr. Carlson.
What the police appeared to be focused on was the spraying of the anarchist symbol on the driveway of the residence by one person. That was the extent of the property damage. That was the extent of the activity that could possibly be construed as unlawful.
Even when it was reported that the incident was being looked at as a hate crime, it appears that this was the focus of the investigation.
(How that could in any way be prosecuted as a hate crime is a subject for another day.)
What is of concern now is that, since there has been such misreporting to which unfortunately people on the left like @StephenAtHome have given credence, there will be political pressure to bring criminal charges for activity that is not criminal.
I hope those people will take the time to reconsider and correct their misstatements.




Oh, hey, let me add, I'm not one to point to the police as a credible source. I am a public defender, people. But they are a more credible source here than Tucker Carlson. I am also trying to beat the MAGA folks at their own game. Like, what, you don't believe law enforcement?
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UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 12th November 2018, 10:45 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Interesteing twitter thread on threadreader app (easier to read there than twitter)

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...652570624.html
If there was a 911 call, a recording and possibly a transcription should exist. At the very least, the call would have been logged.
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Old 12th November 2018, 10:57 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
"Crybaby Jim Acosta manhandles a female intern and the leftist press rushes to his defense, but a journalist’s wife and children are terrorized by a Democrat/Antifa mob and the mainstream media couldn’t care less."

-- James Woods (Nov 8, 2018)
Did Jimmy have any choice words for the midterm beat down?
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Old 12th November 2018, 11:00 AM   #544
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Better yet IMO, why mindlessly parrot celebrities on one side or another just to get a rise out of people you disagree with, for reasons you can't even articulate?
I'm starting to think a russkie bot. Or just a bot.
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Old 12th November 2018, 11:26 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And the people who are wrong are the counter protesters like in Charlottesville.
Are you more into slalom events or do you go straight for jumps down a slope this slick?
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Old 12th November 2018, 11:28 AM   #546
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Ponderingturtle's slopes aren't slick, they are frictionless. If you coated an airplane in Ponderingturtle argument's you'd break the speed the record.

And that's when they aren't just yelling at arguments that only exist in his head.
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Old 12th November 2018, 11:34 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Are you more into slalom events or do you go straight for jumps down a slope this slick?
So draw the line. People are so ready to condemn protests illegally shutting down major roads yet endorse exactly that when it is a famous one like the march on selma.

State some actual principles. These nebulous statements apply quite broadly.
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Old 12th November 2018, 02:17 PM   #548
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So draw the line.
I've always been a bit partial to this one:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Legal interpretations here.

Our right to protest is protected, our right to riot is not.

If Richard Spencer or some other fool what to say stupid things, they may. There might be repercussions for those things, such as losing invitations to speak elsewhere. That's all fine – we're guaranteed to the right to speak but we're not guaranteed an audience. If the idiot says something that incites violence, then even that speech is no longer protected.

Same with peaceful protest: We can gather and demonstrate and shout slogans, etc. We cannot, however, incite violence, vandalism, or other mayhem with our assembly. If some ANTIFA morons start smashing windows or whatever, then we should expect our assembly to be broken up because the right that protects it has been forfeited.

Sometimes, we might want to break the law as part of our protest to draw greater attention to an issue, e.g., MLK et al. during the Selma to Montgomery Marches. Sometimes you want to exercise your right within the limits of the law, e.g., MLK et al. during the Selma to Montgomery Marches.
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Old 12th November 2018, 08:50 PM   #549
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post

State some actual principles.
The rule is, if Republicans do it, it is okay. If anyone but Republicans do it, it is wrong.
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Old 13th November 2018, 04:56 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
If Richard Spencer or some other fool what to say stupid things, they may. There might be repercussions for those things, such as losing invitations to speak elsewhere. That's all fine – we're guaranteed to the right to speak but we're not guaranteed an audience. If the idiot says something that incites violence, then even that speech is no longer protected.

Same with peaceful protest: We can gather and demonstrate and shout slogans, etc. We cannot, however, incite violence, vandalism, or other mayhem with our assembly.
Sure we can as long as it is broadly used and not targeted against a specific individual, like how the president encouraged attacking protesters and police brutality. That is perfectly nice and legal. That is why a "Kill all the Jews" march is perfectly legal after all. Inciting violence is protected as long as it is not specifically targeted.
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Old 13th November 2018, 08:18 AM   #551
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Sure we can as long as it is broadly used and not targeted against a specific individual, like how the president encouraged attacking protesters and police brutality.
No, that's not legal either, and it's one of a few dozen reasons I think that creep should be rotting in prison.
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Old 13th November 2018, 10:09 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
No, that's not legal either, and it's one of a few dozen reasons I think that creep should be rotting in prison.
See it is actually legal, because kill all the jews in not inciting violence but legally a political position. "Will no one rid me of this turbulent reporter" probably would be illegal. But a political position of state controlled media and execution of reporters who don't toe the line is protected by the first amendment.

This is well established legally in the US, which was what you were supposedly using as your guide.
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Old 13th November 2018, 01:52 PM   #553
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
See it is actually legal, because kill all the jews in not inciting violence but legally a political position. . . .

This is well established legally in the US, which was what you were supposedly using as your guide.
My guide is our Constitutionally-protected right to peaceful demonstration. If a demonstration includes hate speech, it is no longer eligible for protection.

What constitutes hate speech is muddier, as you allude (I assume) to the legality of being a NAZI in the US so long as you don't say any violent NAZI stuff. American NAZIs skirt the line of Constitutional protection by not actually calling for violence; evidently this has been upheld in the courts. So I guess we keep a close eye on them, keep legal challenges at the ready, and shut them down* when they cross a line.

*Shutting down does not mean "I'm angry that someone gave this creep a platform so I'm going to throw some bricks through this other random persons' storefront window."
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Old 14th November 2018, 05:58 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
My guide is our Constitutionally-protected right to peaceful demonstration. If a demonstration includes hate speech, it is no longer eligible for protection.

What constitutes hate speech is muddier, as you allude (I assume) to the legality of being a NAZI in the US so long as you don't say any violent NAZI stuff. American NAZIs skirt the line of Constitutional protection by not actually calling for violence; evidently this has been upheld in the courts. So I guess we keep a close eye on them, keep legal challenges at the ready, and shut them down* when they cross a line.

*Shutting down does not mean "I'm angry that someone gave this creep a platform so I'm going to throw some bricks through this other random persons' storefront window."
Hate speech is not a useful term in a US legal context. It's meaningless and using it in this context is not clarifying.

The constitution grants the right to be as hateful as you like. Violence is what is prohibited. While hateful speech often accompanies violent speech, the violent aspect is the only legally actionable portion.
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Old 14th November 2018, 07:25 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The constitution grants the right to be as hateful as you like. Violence is what is prohibited. While hateful speech often accompanies violent speech, the violent aspect is the only legally actionable portion.
Thank you for that correction.
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Old 14th November 2018, 07:41 AM   #556
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Hate speech is not a useful term in a US legal context. It's meaningless and using it in this context is not clarifying.

The constitution grants the right to be as hateful as you like. Violence is what is prohibited. While hateful speech often accompanies violent speech, the violent aspect is the only legally actionable portion.
And voilent speech needs to be specific, riot there, kill that guy. General statements about how blacks, gays or jews need to be put down is hateful but not legally violent.

The standard is not abstract violence, but imminent lawless action. See Brandenburg v. Ohio.
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Old 14th November 2018, 07:58 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And voilent speech needs to be specific, riot there, kill that guy. General statements about how blacks, gays or jews need to be put down is hateful but not legally violent.

The standard is not abstract violence, but imminent lawless action. See Brandenburg v. Ohio.
That's an excellent way to create a society where groups who are threatened feel like they have no support from their government and start taking matters into their own hands.
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Old 14th November 2018, 08:05 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
That's an excellent way to create a society where groups who are threatened feel like they have no support from their government and start taking matters into their own hands.
It's also seemingly inadequate, as that Milo guy and Richard Spencer have shown, when they assert their "right" to blather hatred at public Universities, only for their followers to show up and try to shoot people.

I suppose someone could point to that guy that started the Proud Boys, but really he created a violent street gang, so that's another matter.
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Old 14th November 2018, 08:12 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
That's an excellent way to create a society where groups who are threatened feel like they have no support from their government and start taking matters into their own hands.
Well it stems from anti communist era and such. So that to be criminal the standard is intent, imminence and likelihood. Advocating people violate the law in and of itself is not illegal, you need to intend that they do it(hence trumps I was jokeing stuff) and it needs to be imminent and likely.
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Old 14th November 2018, 10:22 AM   #560
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The standard is not abstract violence, but imminent lawless action. See Brandenburg v. Ohio.
Please pardon my ignorance on this. That does indeed strike me as messed up, despite the Supreme Court's rulings.

Okay, I'll amend my threshold to where I thought it was as opposed to where it evidently is: I'd prefer the line to be nudged back a bit so that you forfeit your free speech protection when you promote violence to people even when they aren't brandishing weapons and standing next to a target of the rhetoric. I guess chants of "white power" are vague enough for me to be protected free speech, but "Jews will not replace us" is not.

Now that's the legal stuff. Counterprotesters are free to go after even the protected speech that they find offensive, and I would gladly join in shouting down any fools chanting white power.

Again shouting down =/= smashing storefronts and starting a riot because someone said something you don't like. This is why Antifa is bs, and they're enabling the creeps they're trying to stifle.
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