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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:19 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Terrorism is, in the broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror among masses of people; or fear to achieve a financial, political, religious or ideological aim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism
Antifa uses violence to intimidate and suppress political dissent.

I'm not sure how you can have a meaningful definition of terrorism that excludes Antifa.
Well yeah, you just defined them as terrorists to show that they're terrorists. Very convincing.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:21 AM   #42
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If y'all want to say Antifa is to Democrats what Nazis are to Republicans, I'm good with that. You?

It's not true, as Antifa is explicitly anti fascist and not supportive of any political party, while Nazis run on a GOP platform, but I'm still good with saying it if it'll shut you up.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:22 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Maybe you'll consider reading the article I linked to that explains it?
Maybe it's in a different thread?
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:23 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Maybe it's in a different thread?
Yes, I was about to offer an apology for that. I thought I posted a link but did not.

Here's one:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7927881.html
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:26 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Nazis have an end-goal.
Antifa wants to prevent that, not set up their own system.
So very different.
Bullcrap. Plenty of Antifa want to set up their own system
Problem with Antifa it is a loose coalition, some of who are pretty militant Neo Marxist who want a system as authoritarian and dictorial as anything the Nazis want.
Antifa also has an anarchist wing, which seems to be into destruction of property as some kind of inherenty revolutionary act.
ANd there are sincere Anti Fascist . It's a mixed bag.
I despise Nazis to no end, but lot's not have any illusions about ANtifa. Yeah, there are anti fascist, but some of them are peddling something which is no better then fascism.
I am really worried about the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" attiude I am seeing here. That is one of the reasons we are in the mess we are in today.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:28 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
If y'all want to say Antifa is to Democrats what Nazis are to Republicans, I'm good with that. You?

It's not true, as Antifa is explicitly anti fascist and not supportive of any political party, while Nazis run on a GOP platform, but I'm still good with saying it if it'll shut you up.
SOme is seeing Antifa though rose colored glasses, I see...
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:28 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
If y'all want to say Antifa is to Democrats what Nazis are to Republicans, I'm good with that. You?
Where are explicitly antifa democrats running for major offices who won nominations? There are rather a number of explicitly nazi republicans after all. Unless saying hitler was right about the jews is not a nazi statement or some such.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:31 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I'm not one to quibble over semantics nor am I an Antifa expert, so I won't argue against. I would add "fringe" to the 5 word or less description.

But they sure as hell ain't Democrats. Antifa isn't supported by the Democratic power structure, and Antifa doesn't support the Democratic power structure. They are fringe outliers. Agreed?
Pretty much agreed. You have a fringe element in the Democratic party who flirts with Antifa....particulary in the SF Bay Area..but most desm think Antifa's antics if anything hurt them.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:31 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yes, I was about to offer an apology for that. I thought I posted a link but did not.

Here's one:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7927881.html
No need to apologise. Posting the link is enough.

Thanks for the link. I now consider your claim substantiated, though they don't seem to have made this classification public yet.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:34 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If you say "I'm anti-stupid" and I think, absent further information, that you mean "Anti-Belz...", then I probably think I'm stupid.

So why would conservatives assume anti-fascism means anti-them?
Probably because progressives keep calling them fascists.

If I say, "Belz is stupid" Then my friend(or even a later me) says that "I am anti-stupid" you might have good reason to think that I or they are anti belz as much as anit stupid no mater how not stupid you might be.

Last edited by ahhell; 23rd October 2018 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:37 AM   #51
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So serious question.

What are the standards for who is part of what group? If they say they are? If the larger group says they are? Pointing at the dictionary and grunting?

Because it seems we spend a lot of time fighting over which sub-group which larger group has to justify/apologize for/account for/some other variation therefore.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:39 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Probably because progressives keep calling them fascists.
If I say, "Belz is stupid" Then my friend(or even a later me) says that "I am anti-stupid" you might have good reason to think that I or they are anti belz as much as anit stupid no mater how not stupid you might be.
Let me get this straight. You think Antifa is anti-conservative because some other people call conservatives fascists. Does that make sense to you?
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:40 AM   #53
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Antifa is just OWS but with weapons
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:41 AM   #54
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I just try to see every person, organization, entity on its own terms.

Until every high school graduate can do that like they do basic algebra the future looks bleak.

Last edited by Venom; 23rd October 2018 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:43 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So serious question.

What are the standards for who is part of what group? If they say they are? If the larger group says they are? Pointing at the dictionary and grunting?

Because it seems we spend a lot of time fighting over which sub-group which larger group has to justify/apologize for/account for/some other variation therefore.
I don't know but it's important for the mainstream groups that on each side of the aisle to loudly and frequently distance themselves from the worst members of their coalition. Both to marginalize the worst groups and avoid being tarred by the association.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:47 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I don't know but it's important for the mainstream groups that on each side of the aisle to loudly and frequently distance themselves from the worst members of their coalition. Both to marginalize the worst groups and avoid being tarred by the association.
That seems like that's the sort of thing that's really, really important to people who think "The Political Spectrum" is... like a real thing that exists in nature as some law of the universe and isn't just a handy shorthand we created for common, but not inherent, statistical clustering.

Barbers don't have to apologize for murderers who decapitate their victims and they still wouldn't if we created an arbitrary spectrum of people based on how much of a body they cut off.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 23rd October 2018 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:53 AM   #57
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I just read up briefly on the Proud Boys.

Quote:
The Proud Boys say they have an initiation process that has four stages and includes hazing. The first stage is a loyalty oath, the second is getting punched until the person recites pop culture trivia, the third is getting a tattoo and agreeing to not masturbate, and the fourth is getting into a major fight 'for the cause.'
Whilst they sound just as violent and fascist as Anifa, they're a good deal funnier.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:57 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Bullcrap. Plenty of Antifa want to set up their own system
Possibly.

Not Antifa though.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem with Antifa it is a loose coalition, some of who are pretty militant Neo Marxist who want a system as authoritarian and dictorial as anything the Nazis want.
I'd like for you to provide evidence for this.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Antifa also has an anarchist wing, which seems to be into destruction of property as some kind of inherenty revolutionary act.
No, Antifa doesn't have an anarchist wing. Antifa doesn't have wings.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
ANd there are sincere Anti Fascist . It's a mixed bag.
All of them are sincere anti-fascists.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I despise Nazis to no end, but lot's not have any illusions about ANtifa. Yeah, there are anti fascist, but some of them are peddling something which is no better then fascism.
Who?

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am really worried about the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" attiude I am seeing here. That is one of the reasons we are in the mess we are in today.
I get you. You don't want to have to fight for democracy, so you don't really want anyone else doing it either, as it reflects poorly on you.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:58 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Where are explicitly antifa democrats running for major offices who won nominations?
Absolutely nowhere to my knowledge.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:59 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So serious question.

What are the standards for who is part of what group? If they say they are? If the larger group says they are? Pointing at the dictionary and grunting?

Because it seems we spend a lot of time fighting over which sub-group which larger group has to justify/apologize for/account for/some other variation therefore.
If you say you're Antifa and you're anti-fascist, you're Antifa.

You can't apply for a charter.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 12:21 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Possibly.

Not Antifa though.

I'd like for you to provide evidence for this.

No, Antifa doesn't have an anarchist wing. Antifa doesn't have wings.

All of them are sincere anti-fascists.

Who?

I get you. You don't want to have to fight for democracy, so you don't really want anyone else doing it either, as it reflects poorly on you.
Sounds pretty defensive.

Do you have a counter-point to make to baron's link?
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Old 23rd October 2018, 12:48 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That seems like that's the sort of thing that's really, really important to people who think "The Political Spectrum" is... like a real thing that exists in nature as some law of the universe and isn't just a handy shorthand we created for common, but not inherent, statistical clustering.

Barbers don't have to apologize for murderers who decapitate their victims and they still wouldn't if we created an arbitrary spectrum of people based on how much of a body they cut off.
Where I disagree, is that lots of folks, probably most believe the political spectrum is a thing, the place where appearances most matter is politics. I think there's value in making it clear, political violence is not cool and distancing yourself from extremists that others might associate with you regardless of whether you associate with said extremists.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 12:53 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Where I disagree, is that lots of folks, probably most believe the political spectrum is a thing, the place where appearances most matter is politics. I think there's value in making it clear, political violence is not cool and distancing yourself from extremists that others might associate with you regardless of whether you associate with said extremists.
I distance myself from extremists. I simply don't think fighting fascists is an extremist position.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 01:59 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I distance myself from extremists. I simply don't think fighting fascists is an extremist position.
IMHO, it very much matters what methods you use to fight fascism and who you call a fascist. As has been noted by others, since roughly the late 40s, fascist means whatever the speaker wants it too. Usually, people I don't like.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 03:00 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I distance myself from extremists.
Aren't you the one who went from supporting punching nazis to supporting punching an ever-growing group of people you find deplorable?

I'd call that a bit extremist, though it might just you being a keyboard warrior.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 03:09 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
There are no good Antifa, just like there are no good Nazis (apart from dead ones, in both cases). Again, I stress I'm not an expert on US politics, but I don't see many conservatives balaclava'd up roaming the country doling out violence and intimidation to people whose speech they disagree with.
I am not defending them, and they are fictionalized, however:
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I AGREE
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Old 23rd October 2018, 03:40 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Possibly.

Not Antifa though.



I'd like for you to provide evidence for this.



No, Antifa doesn't have an anarchist wing. Antifa doesn't have wings.



All of them are sincere anti-fascists.



Who?



I get you. You don't want to have to fight for democracy, so you don't really want anyone else doing it either, as it reflects poorly on you.

Look up the collective writings of Caveman1917.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 03:49 PM   #68
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We had an incident here in Portland recently where antifa closed down a street and then redirected traffic, fantasy role playing being traffic cops (emulating their enemy). Those that were not obedient and submissive to their authoritah were harassed and threatened (I suppose they must be fascists, racist, and alt right for being anti antifa)
The notion that they are "explicitly anti fascist" means nothing. So is Nashi, the Putin Youth movement. They go to demonstrations and beat up and intimidate anti Putin "fascists"
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Old 23rd October 2018, 05:19 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I'm hoping this thread will focus on examples (or lack thereof) of significant Dems supporting Antifa.
Two pages later, running tally: 0
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Old 23rd October 2018, 05:25 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Two pages later, running tally: 0
What did you expect? It's not like any significant republicans support neo Nazis.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 05:42 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Aren't you the one who went from supporting punching nazis to supporting punching an ever-growing group of people you find deplorable?

I'd call that a bit extremist, though it might just you being a keyboard warrior.
I repeat somebody is looking an Antifa through rose colored glasses.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 05:45 PM   #72
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Quote:
The Proud Boys say they have an initiation process that has four stages and includes hazing. The first stage is a loyalty oath, the second is getting punched until the person recites pop culture trivia, the third is getting a tattoo and agreeing to not masturbate, and the fourth is getting into a major fight 'for the cause.'
...
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Old 23rd October 2018, 05:45 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I distance myself from extremists. I simply don't think fighting fascists is an extremist position.
Explain why looting a small store during a demonstration is "fighting Fascism" as I personally saw some protestors, who I think would consider themselves Antifa do, when I was in Berkeley last year.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 05:47 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
...
Weel, it confirms that the Proud Boys are total idiots.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 05:47 PM   #75
varwoche
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What did you expect? It's not like any significant republicans support neo Nazis.
Incorrect, no soup for you.

If a Democrat said that some of Antifa were very fine people, it would be cited and tallied.

If a Democrat re-tweeted Antifa on multiple instances, it would be cited and tallied.

If a Democrat pretended not to know what Antifa was, it probably wouldn't be tallied, but we'd all rightfully think this person was a liar who was catering to Antifa.

I could go on, and will do so later.

See, I answer your questions even though you ignore mine.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 06:49 PM   #76
Thermal
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What did you expect? It's not like any significant republicans support neo Nazis.
No matter how you may feel about him, the President is not insignificant.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 08:06 PM   #77
Stacko
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No matter how you may feel about him, the President is not insignificant.
Or being even more explicit in his support than thevpresident, Steve King.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 10:16 PM   #78
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Nazis have an end-goal.
Antifa wants to prevent that, not set up their own system.
So very different.
Not just very different, utter poles apart in philosophy. Anyone who thinks antifa and nazis are two chips off the same block, knows nothing about these fringe elements in politics, and hasn't been paying even the slightest attention.

Nazis and neo-Nazis are a structured, well organised group of thugs whose stated aim is white, Aryan supremacy. They hate blacks, hate Hispanics, and especially they hate Jews. The also hate whites who aren't with them (they call them "race traitors"). They are the embodiment of race hatred.

Antifa, on the other hand, are a disorganised rabble with a general aim of opposing Nazis anywhere they find them, and by any means necessary.

If Nazis were to disappear, antifa would disappear also. The same cannot be said of the reverse.
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- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
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Old 23rd October 2018, 10:17 PM   #79
portlandatheist
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I distance myself from extremists. I simply don't think fighting fascists is an extremist position.
Supporting extrajudicial violence and vigilantism without due process of law is an extreme position and when you say you support fighting fascists, fascists according to whom exactly?
https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/...n_flag_to.html
Quote:
He brought an American flag to protest fascism in Portland. Then antifa attacked him
And as always, the onion nails it:
https://politics.theonion.com/antifa...-ra-1819580235
Quote:
BERKELEY, CA—Vowing to derail whichever event it is by any means necessary, local Antifa organizers announced plans Monday to disrupt an upcoming neo-Nazi rally or whatever else is going on that day. “We will stop at nothing to prevent these vile ******* neo-Nazi hatemongers from gathering, or, if not them, someone else,” said Sarah Jackson, 26, adding that the only way to end the spread of fascism is to physically confront Nazis, peaceful right-wing protesters, or just random people going about their daily lives. “We need to tell these Hitler-loving ***** or whoever else is standing there, ‘Get out of our city!’
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Old 23rd October 2018, 10:24 PM   #80
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I am not defending them, and they are fictionalized, however:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
I don't have to open that to know exactly what its going to be.....

"Gruppenfurhrer, get his number plate, we're going the kill the sonofabitch"
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As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
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