ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags antifa

Reply
Old 23rd October 2018, 11:06 PM   #81
Damien Evans
Up The Irons
Tagger
 
Damien Evans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 34,271
Originally Posted by baron View Post
So now you're going to give a few examples of the 'good' people in this officially terrorist organisation...

...or maybe you're not.
Ah yes, 99% of the population are terrorists. Seems likely.
__________________
i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp.
Damien Evans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2018, 11:41 PM   #82
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,057
Originally Posted by baron View Post
There are no good Antifa, just like there are no good Nazis (apart from dead ones, in both cases). Again, I stress I'm not an expert on US politics, but I don't see many conservatives balaclava'd up roaming the country doling out violence and intimidation to people whose speech they disagree with.

Conservatives have much more efficient ways of intimidating people. They call the police and have them dole out violence. The police are much better equipped for that sort of thing. Baraclavas are soooo low-tech and just serve to stress the impotence of the Antifas.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2018, 11:49 PM   #83
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,362
Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Ah yes, 99% of the population are terrorists. Seems likely.
One might remember what the FBI said about MLK Jr. or groups like the Black Panthers back in the day, as well. As good as it's intentions supposedly were, COINTELPRO was likely a large part of why some elements of both the Civil Rights movement *and* the anti-war movement turned violent.

(I've noticed a general rush to proclaim any non-authoritarian protest group as "terrorist" - Occupy Wall Street and Black Lives Matter being two recent examples. At least "Antifa" is willing to be violent, unlike the former two.)
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 12:17 AM   #84
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,160
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Explain why looting a small store during a demonstration is "fighting Fascism" as I personally saw some protestors, who I think would consider themselves Antifa do, when I was in Berkeley last year.
It's not.

That wasn't hard.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 12:21 AM   #85
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,160
Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Supporting extrajudicial violence and vigilantism without due process of law is an extreme position
I guess the founding fathers were extremists then.

Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
and when you say you support fighting fascists, fascists according to whom exactly?
According to the dictionary, mostly. You know, right-wing authoritarians with a violent streak.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 02:07 AM   #86
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,826
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Conservatives have much more efficient ways of intimidating people. They call the police and have them dole out violence.
Do they? Whilst my knowledge of the American way of life is not extensive I find it difficult to believe that the police make a record of the caller's political stance before embarking on a course of action.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's not.

That wasn't hard.
So Antifa have their heart in the right place, it's just their methods that require attention. A bit like Thanos.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 02:37 AM   #87
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 75,866
Originally Posted by baron View Post
So Antifa have their heart in the right place, it's just their methods that require attention. A bit like Thanos.
Just don't give them the infinity gauntlet.

But seriously, do you believe that every member of this organisation 'joined' in order to commit acts of terrorism? Or perhaps that they joined to fight against what they saw as right-wing racists, and things, naturally, got out of hand?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 02:50 AM   #88
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,826
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Just don't give them the infinity gauntlet.

But seriously, do you believe that every member of this organisation 'joined' in order to commit acts of terrorism? Or perhaps that they joined to fight against what they saw as right-wing racists, and things, naturally, got out of hand?
I believe the former, if you replace 'terrorism' with violence, intimidation, threat, etc. I don't believe they see themselves as terrorists. There are many peaceful anti-fascist groups out there that people can and do join. The choice to profess allegiance to Antifa in preference to any of these others proves to me that the decision has been made to embrace fascism and violence.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 02:53 AM   #89
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,653
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I distance myself from extremists. I simply don't think fighting fascists is an extremist position.
"Fists and stones and batons and the gun
With courage we shall beat those blackshirts down"
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 03:00 AM   #90
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,990
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
"Fists and stones and batons and the gun
With courage we shall beat those blackshirts down"
stopping thousands of Facists from marching through a Jewish neighborhood
- how monstrous.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isnít.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 03:01 AM   #91
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,653
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I guess the founding fathers were extremists then.
The Sons of Liberty were definitely terrorists.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 03:12 AM   #92
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,598
Originally Posted by baron View Post
There are no good Antifa, just like there are no good Nazis (apart from dead ones, in both cases). Again, I stress I'm not an expert on US politics, but I don't see many conservatives balaclava'd up roaming the country doling out violence and intimidation to people whose speech they disagree with.
Yea the nazis know the cops are on their side and they don't need to bother with masks. Though I think they might be getting the message like after NYC and even though the cops were fine with their rioting and attacking people when the videos got out they started getting arrested! Totally unfair.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 03:19 AM   #93
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,826
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea the nazis know the cops are on their side and they don't need to bother with masks. Though I think they might be getting the message like after NYC and even though the cops were fine with their rioting and attacking people when the videos got out they started getting arrested! Totally unfair.
Nazi violence = bad.

Antifa violence = bad.

Police bias = bad.

Give me a prize for my ability to accept these three facts simultaneously without brain meltdown.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 03:20 AM   #94
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,598
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
One might remember what the FBI said about MLK Jr. or groups like the Black Panthers back in the day, as well. As good as it's intentions supposedly were, COINTELPRO was likely a large part of why some elements of both the Civil Rights movement *and* the anti-war movement turned violent.

(I've noticed a general rush to proclaim any non-authoritarian protest group as "terrorist" - Occupy Wall Street and Black Lives Matter being two recent examples. At least "Antifa" is willing to be violent, unlike the former two.)
They are so mean to those nice proud boys though!
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 03:21 AM   #95
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,598
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I guess the founding fathers were extremists then.
Exactly. They were the scum of the earth and why people should celebrate a terrorist attack like the boston tea party who knows.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 04:15 AM   #96
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 75,866
Originally Posted by baron View Post
I believe the former, if you replace 'terrorism' with violence, intimidation, threat, etc. I don't believe they see themselves as terrorists. There are many peaceful anti-fascist groups out there that people can and do join. The choice to profess allegiance to Antifa in preference to any of these others proves to me that the decision has been made to embrace fascism and violence.
I would think that the antifa people who engage in online 'attacks' aren't halfway as bad as the ones who destroy property and riot, no?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 04:19 AM   #97
Delphic Oracle
Master Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,575
Pointing to examples of good deeds doesn't really address the concern raised about the very frequent poor target selection priority.

"Why did you kick that dog?"

"Relax, I helped an old lady cross the street earlier."
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 04:29 AM   #98
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,160
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Pointing to examples of good deeds doesn't really address the concern raised about the very frequent poor target selection priority.

"Why did you kick that dog?"

"Relax, I helped an old lady cross the street earlier."
I agree. The problem is that in this case, the person who kicked the dog isn't the same person who helped the old lady cross the street.

They both call themselve Antifa. That doesn't make them the same person. Antifa is simply an emblem you put on yourself. You exclaim to the world "I am anti-fascist and believe in direct action".
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 04:56 AM   #99
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,826
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I would think that the antifa people who engage in online 'attacks' aren't halfway as bad as the ones who destroy property and riot, no?
I consider them as bad. They embrace Antifa ideology but baulk at joining in the violence so they shout encouragement from the sidelines, so to speak. As I say, if people want to protest against fascism there are 101 groups you can join, or ways to do it, without involving yourself with a group that is renowned for espousing violence and fascist tactics. Joining such a group - and certainly remaining within that group - says something in and of itself.

However, I suspect many members of Antifa are simply social inadequates looking to belong. The are unable to make a go of life so they seek approval using whatever means fall within their limited grasp. Don a mask, whack someone with a bike lock and hey presto, you're surrounded by friends and you're fighting for a cause. Your life has meaning and as an added bonus it gets you out of your mother's basement every Saturday.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 05:12 AM   #100
Delphic Oracle
Master Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,575
Then there's the problem of coattail riding.

BLM has a candlelight vigil and then disperses by sundown. Two hours later a bunch of white suburban kids dressed head to toe in black are on the news smashing stores.

I'm sure in their minds they think they are "helping" and being good "allies."

They do what they want and will happily insist to anyone who listens that credit for their deeds should be applied to whatever group has a little bit of public sympathy that can be squandered (in some cases, even after being asked to stay out of it by said group).

ETA: in the same way as those border guard idiots. They operate under the guise of "helping protect the border" but really they would like to attack brown people and not be finger-wagged for it. Their behavior feeds left-wing reactionaries to see all border issues as racist in the same way that right-wingers come to believe BLM organizes riots.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 24th October 2018 at 05:16 AM.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 05:23 AM   #101
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,362
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Do they? Whilst my knowledge of the American way of life is not extensive I find it difficult to believe that the police make a record of the caller's political stance before embarking on a course of action.
Hahahahaha!!!
*breathes*
aaaahhAHAHAHAHA!!!

Ah, when you aren't posting youtube memes, you're showing that you really don't know anything about the subject at all, I guess...

caller...no, we're talking about protests and other political activities here.

Last edited by Mumbles; 24th October 2018 at 05:25 AM.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 05:26 AM   #102
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 75,866
Originally Posted by baron View Post
I consider them as bad. They embrace Antifa ideology but baulk at joining in the violence so they shout encouragement from the sidelines, so to speak.
So to speak? Don't you think you're twisting words a bit in order to put them on the same level?

Quote:
As I say, if people want to protest against fascism there are 101 groups you can join
Is there a membership card they get for Antifa? I wasn't aware we were talking about a well-organised group here. They seem more loosely associated to me.

Quote:
However, I suspect many members of Antifa are simply social inadequates looking to belong.
Sounds like you don't think they're as bad as the terrorists.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 05:33 AM   #103
Delphic Oracle
Master Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,575
Also, white supremacy being a unified movement is a farce. At least here in the plains, it's basically like Life of Brian with Joe Yokel, his 2 cousins, and a dozen lowlifes declaring everyone else "splitters."

That "Grand Dragon" who's body they found last year in Missouri was head of a group of 20 or so. Statements from other "Grand Dragons" in the region at the time were certainly not of the "condolences and solidarity" variety...
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 05:35 AM   #104
SuburbanTurkey
Muse
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 741
I have the most scorn for these police departments who seem determined to let these street fighters brawl it out in the public sphere. These clashes have been happening regularly enough that not being prepared with enough police to effectively arrest anyone engaged in violence is a choice being made.

NYPD didn't do a thing about those junior brownshirts openly beating people in the streets and only made arrests after the fact in response to the outcry. Luckily those idiots don't have the common sense to conceal their faces like their antifa enemies, so retroactive arrests are possible. This is only the most recent example.

"letting them fight it out" is terrible public policy and I wish there was more outcry about that.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 05:43 AM   #105
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,362
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I have the most scorn for these police departments who seem determined to let these street fighters brawl it out in the public sphere. These clashes have been happening regularly enough that not being prepared with enough police to effectively arrest anyone engaged in violence is a choice being made.

NYPD didn't do a thing about those junior brownshirts openly beating people in the streets and only made arrests after the fact in response to the outcry. Luckily those idiots don't have the common sense to conceal their faces like their antifa enemies, so retroactive arrests are possible. This is only the most recent example.

"letting them fight it out" is terrible public policy and I wish there was more outcry about that.
If the FBI's operating properly, it's looking hard into RICO charges against Gavin McGinnis, since he's flat out stated that he created the Proud Boys as a violent, interstate gang, complete with initiation ceremonies like jumping in new members and requiring violence to move up in ranks. I wouldn't be slightly shocked to find other illegal activities, like drug smuggling and the like involved.

Course, since this administration is entirely uninterested in white supremacist terrorists and the like (they seem more interested in attacking groups like the Water Protectors or Black Lives Matter), I doubt it's been ordered from up top, but there are a surprising number of good people at the FBI.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Also, white supremacy being a unified movement is a farce. At least here in the plains, it's basically like Life of Brian with Joe Yokel, his 2 cousins, and a dozen lowlifes declaring everyone else "splitters."

That "Grand Dragon" who's body they found last year in Missouri was head of a group of 20 or so. Statements from other "Grand Dragons" in the region at the time were certainly not of the "condolences and solidarity" variety...
Eh, they go through various efforts to put differences aside and cooperate - and CHeeto Benito's election has given them some reason to do so.

Last edited by Mumbles; 24th October 2018 at 05:45 AM.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 05:48 AM   #106
Delphic Oracle
Master Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,575
Marching around chanting slogans: get kettled, beaten, thrown in jail, and start practicing explaining to future employers why you have a criminal record.

Marching around beating people for no reason: get quietly shadowed to make sure nothing "gets out of hand."

Makes sense.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 05:54 AM   #107
Delphic Oracle
Master Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,575
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Eh, they go through various efforts to put differences aside and cooperate - and CHeeto Benito's election has given them some reason to do so.
Antifa also make various efforts to set differences aside and cooperate.

I was pushing back against the idea of white nationalism being unified and coordinated in contrast to antifa. I'm not defending white nationalism, mind you, but remarking on their supposed organizational unity.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 05:57 AM   #108
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,598
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Pointing to examples of good deeds doesn't really address the concern raised about the very frequent poor target selection priority.

"Why did you kick that dog?"

"Relax, I helped an old lady cross the street earlier."
Exactly it is like how effectively all cops are nazis. There are some nazi cops so there for all cops support nazis it is really quite simple.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 05:58 AM   #109
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 75,866
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly it is like how effectively all cops are nazis. There are some nazi cops so there for all cops support nazis it is really quite simple.
Are you... are you now arguing in favour of nuance?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 05:59 AM   #110
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,598
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Are you... are you now arguing in favour of nuance?
Just using your logic. Antifa are all terrorists, cops are all nazis, makes things so simple.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 06:01 AM   #111
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,978
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The definition of anti-fascist seems to expand whenever convenient to excuse political violence from the left. And we've known for at decades that "conservative" = "fascist" for many progressives.

That kind of uncharitable hyperbole was tolerable when it was just rhetoric. But now that progressives are finding in themselves a taste for political violence, the equation of conservatives with fascists is pretty worrying.

You're trying to have it both ways.
To this progressive, "conservative" for the last couple of decades = "reactionary" -- it's an attitude, not a political philosophy. It's just that reactionaries tend toward fascism when they feel especially threatened.
__________________
"We're done! We're done! GET OUT!"
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 06:02 AM   #112
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 75,866
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Just using your logic. Antifa are all terrorists, cops are all nazis, makes things so simple.
My logic?

Do you have me confused with Baron now? Have you not noticed my posts to him?

This sure illustrates how "clearly" you understand the threads you participate in, and explains quite a bit about your usual contributions.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 06:07 AM   #113
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 14,205
This all pointless. It's two groups trying to pin or not pin an extremist group on each other using two entirely different sliding scales of definition.

We can't agree on what extreme is if we all start from different starting points of what the "default middle ground" is.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 06:08 AM   #114
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 75,866
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This all pointless. It's two groups trying to pin or not pin an extremist group on each other using two entirely different sliding scales of definition.

We can't agree on what extreme is if we all start from different starting points of what the "default middle ground" is.
Well, maybe we can agree that there are some very bad people on both sides.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 06:09 AM   #115
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,160
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This all pointless. It's two groups trying to pin or not pin an extremist group on each other using two entirely different sliding scales of definition.

We can't agree on what extreme is if we all start from different starting points of what the "default middle ground" is.
Previously, "Nazis are bad" has been a pretty good middle ground. Something we could all agree with. Not any more it seems.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 06:27 AM   #116
ahhell
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,755
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Previously, "Nazis are bad" has been a pretty good middle ground. Something we could all agree with. Not any more it seems.
Is there anyone here arguing that NAZI's are good? I for one am totally on board with NAZI's are bad, and Fascists are bad. I'm adamantly opposed to, "....therefore its justified to preemptively physically assault NAZI's."
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 06:31 AM   #117
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,160
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Is there anyone here arguing that NAZI's are good? I for one am totally on board with NAZI's are bad, and Fascists are bad. I'm adamantly opposed to, "....therefore its justified to preemptively physically assault NAZI's."
Nowadays there's usually a "yes, but...".

If Nazis are bad, opposing Nazis must be good. If the Nazis bring violence, using violence against them must be morally right, yes?

Because the Nazis are violent by definition, there must therefore be moral justification to be violent towards Nazis.

Now, about that middle ground. How about we say "Nazis are bad" and end it there with a full stop. We don't go "but... Antifa something something". That makes it look like you're apologizing for Nazis, who, as we've agreed, are bad.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 06:33 AM   #118
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 14,205
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Is there anyone here arguing that NAZI's are good? I for one am totally on board with NAZI's are bad, and Fascists are bad. I'm adamantly opposed to, "....therefore its justified to preemptively physically assault NAZI's."
Without opening up an argument we've had way too many times on this board, the question at what point a group becomes, by their own admission, so bad that it's no long "preemptive."

We fought the biggest war in history against the Nazis. We're way past "pre" everything.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 06:34 AM   #119
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,598
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Is there anyone here arguing that NAZI's are good? I for one am totally on board with NAZI's are bad, and Fascists are bad. I'm adamantly opposed to, "....therefore its justified to preemptively physically assault NAZI's."
Or even standing up to them, defending yourself from nazis is of course worse than being a nazi. After all that is what will get you arrested, while nazis going on a nice riot the cops are cool with until the video comes out.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 06:40 AM   #120
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,990
If you think "Fair and Balanced" includes Nazis, you've gone off the deep end.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isnít.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:57 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.