ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags antifa

Reply
Old 24th October 2018, 06:46 AM   #121
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,155
An interesting thought experiment one can do is to take a statement of contemporary Nazi activity in America and replace the word 'Nazi' with 'ISIS'.

For example:

ISIS went to Portland and engaged in street battles with Anti-ISIS groups.

You might think "Hey, why aren't the police arresting these ISIS people? Why should we have to put up with having terrorist supporters coming to our cities and attacking our citizens?"
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 06:49 AM   #122
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,517
Does anyone else see it like me?

The vast majority of people voting do not support the Stalinists on the left, or the Nazis on the right. They support the official that is closest to their views.

it seems that the extremist activists on both sides are able to influence people to think that anyone who votes one way or the other is taking their position. The media helps this illusion.

__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 06:50 AM   #123
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,155
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Does anyone else see it like me?

The vast majority of people voting do not support the Stalinists on the left, or the Nazis on the right. They support the official that is closest to their views.

it seems that the extremist activists on both sides are able to influence people to think that anyone who votes one way or the other is taking their position. The media helps this illusion.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/6...923/dgdtox.png
Who are the Stalinists on the left? Name and shame, please.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 06:56 AM   #124
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 14,074
No. Humanity is not graph-able on a chart.

Everyone is not going to line up in some perfect "One arbitrary political extreme to the other" heightline so we can cordon off the ends of it so we have convenient "extremists" to use against each other in arguments.

Someone who thinks 2+2=4 with the same fever, passion, and refusal to compromise as someone who is equally fervent but thinks 2+2=A Potato is not "just as bad."
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 07:03 AM   #125
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,747
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Hahahahaha!!!
*breathes*
aaaahhAHAHAHAHA!!!

Ah, when you aren't posting youtube memes, you're showing that you really don't know anything about the subject at all, I guess...

caller...no, we're talking about protests and other political activities here.
Try reading the thread. No, I was responding to:

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Conservatives have much more efficient ways of intimidating people. They call the police and have them dole out violence.
There is no mention of protests or political activities. What's more, it says, 'conservatives', not 'Proud Boys' or 'Nazis'.

Oh wait, I get it. All conservatives are Nazis. Of course. I don't need to be an expert in US politics to dismiss that garbage out of hand.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So to speak? Don't you think you're twisting words a bit in order to put them on the same level?
'So to speak' meaning they don't actually shout, they type. Anyone who calls for violence and fascism is the rough equivalent of those who carry it out. You can argue about who is worse but that's like debating whether cat **** stinks worse than dog ****. They both stink, let's leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Is there a membership card they get for Antifa? I wasn't aware we were talking about a well-organised group here. They seem more loosely associated to me.
They are, but lack of organisation is not a virtue. The only reason they don't organise is that they see order as the domain of fascist authority. They don't want to be controlled, they're free, nobody tells them what to do.






And I know, it's cat ****, but that's just an analogy.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 07:04 AM   #126
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,033
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Someone who thinks 2+2=4 with the same fever, passion, and refusal to compromise as someone who is equally fervent but thinks 2+2=A Potato is not "just as bad."

Or = shoe polish!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 07:09 AM   #127
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 4,957
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Does anyone else see it like me?

The vast majority of people voting do not support the Stalinists on the left, or the Nazis on the right. They support the official that is closest to their views.

it seems that the extremist activists on both sides are able to influence people to think that anyone who votes one way or the other is taking their position. The media helps this illusion.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/6...923/dgdtox.png
Antifa are not the opposite of nazis on the left-right scale. They are off on the z-axis somewhere, far away from the left, although some have leftist leanings.

Having communist or socialist philosophies can make you hate nazis and saddle up with antifa. It's not a requirement.
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 07:14 AM   #128
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,033
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
... I personally saw some protestors, who I think would consider themselves Antifa do, when I was in Berkeley last year.
You personally saw some protesters doing something, and you personally [i]"think they would consider themselves Antifa?
Well, I'm convinced!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 07:46 AM   #129
paiute
Graduate Poster
 
paiute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,324
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
they're just violent progressives
That's as likely as calling the computer help desk and getting the Amish guy.
__________________
A Novel and Efficient Synthesis of Cadaverine
Organic chemistry, vengeful ghosts, and high explosives. What could possibly go wrong?
Now free for download!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/36568510/A...-of-Cadaverine
paiute is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 07:50 AM   #130
lobosrul5
Graduate Poster
 
lobosrul5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 1,198
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
An interesting thought experiment one can do is to take a statement of contemporary Nazi activity in America and replace the word 'Nazi' with 'ISIS'.

For example:

ISIS went to Portland and engaged in street battles with Anti-ISIS groups.

You might think "Hey, why aren't the police arresting these ISIS people? Why should we have to put up with having terrorist supporters coming to our cities and attacking our citizens?"
Devil's advocate: ISIS is listed, federally, as a terrorist organization. "Nazi's" are not. Certain Nazi groups are however.
lobosrul5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 07:53 AM   #131
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 14,074
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Devil's advocate: ISIS is listed, federally, as a terrorist organization. "Nazi's" are not. Certain Nazi groups are however.
God's Hostile Witness: Probably because "Nazis are the enemy" is something that fell under the "Crap We Shouldn't Have to Tell You Act of 1972."
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 07:54 AM   #132
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,517
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Who are the Stalinists on the left? Name and shame, please.
I just put Antifa and the Stalinists in that corner on the left. I was remembering that Anti-fascism was the cry that brought Stalinism to the forefront in Russia, and also created issues in Spain in the 30's.
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 07:56 AM   #133
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,979
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Devil's advocate: ISIS is listed, federally, as a terrorist organization. "Nazi's" are not. Certain Nazi groups are however.
It's because they change their names more frequently than their underpants.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 08:02 AM   #134
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 14,074
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I just put Antifa and the Stalinists in that corner on the left. I was remembering that Anti-fascism was the cry that brought Stalinism to the forefront in Russia, and also created issues in Spain in the 30's.
We're not beholding to political definitions and a political spectrum from almost a hundred years ago.

We might as well be arguing if Antifa are Federalist or Whigs if we're gonna do that.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 24th October 2018 at 08:21 AM.
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 08:02 AM   #135
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 27,387
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
An interesting thought experiment one can do is to take a statement of contemporary Nazi activity in America and replace the word 'Nazi' with 'ISIS'.

For example:

ISIS went to Portland and engaged in street battles with Anti-ISIS groups.

You might think "Hey, why aren't the police arresting these ISIS people? Why should we have to put up with having terrorist supporters coming to our cities and attacking our citizens?"
Oof, that is pretty bad. Try this thought experiment:

Antifa went to Portland and engaged in street battles with groups they declared were NAZIS, and shut down traffic and when one old guy tried to get away they attacked him and smashed up his car and the mayor did not do **** about it and then Portland became a festering **** hole.
__________________
"Don't tell me what cases you've won, tell me who you've beaten."

-M. Avenatti
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 08:21 AM   #136
ahhell
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,749
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Without opening up an argument we've had way too many times on this board, the question at what point a group becomes, by their own admission, so bad that it's no long "preemptive."

We fought the biggest war in history against the Nazis. We're way past "pre" everything.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We're not beholding to political definitions and a political spectrum from almost a hundred years ago.

We might as well be arguing if Antifa are Federalist or Whigs.
I find this somewhat ironic.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 08:25 AM   #137
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 14,074
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I find this somewhat ironic.
Is it your argument that "Nazis" have somehow evolved into a more reasonable and tolerance deserving group?
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 08:42 AM   #138
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 27,387
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Is it your argument that "Nazis" have somehow evolved into a more reasonable and tolerance deserving group?
free speech rights are not dependent on whether the party in question has become more reasonable or tolerant.
__________________
"Don't tell me what cases you've won, tell me who you've beaten."

-M. Avenatti
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 08:53 AM   #139
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,580
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
God's Hostile Witness: Probably because "Nazis are the enemy" is something that fell under the "Crap We Shouldn't Have to Tell You Act of 1972."
But what about the fine folk of the alt right? They are not nazis they are just ethno nationalists that is totally fine trying to make this a country for the white race. See the prominent republicans who are unafraid of saying so.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 09:01 AM   #140
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 14,074
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
free speech rights are not dependent on whether the party in question has become more reasonable or tolerant.
Watching your faux pearl clutching over Freedom of Speech is almost as fun as watching your faux pearl clutching over minorities.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 09:03 AM   #141
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 75,787
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Nowadays there's usually a "yes, but...".

If Nazis are bad, opposing Nazis must be good. If the Nazis bring violence, using violence against them must be morally right, yes?

Because the Nazis are violent by definition, there must therefore be moral justification to be violent towards Nazis.
"Violent by definition" sounds dubious to me. Sounds like an excuse to be violent against them at any point you wish to be.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 09:06 AM   #142
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 27,387
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Watching your faux pearl clutching over Freedom of Speech is almost as fun as watching your faux pearl clutching over minorities.
Substance free personal attack post: Must mean I am right, again.

Article about the ACLU "faux pearl clutching over Freedom of Speech" as asserted by our latest correspondent

Super post, tho, JoeMorgue.

/hooboy
__________________
"Don't tell me what cases you've won, tell me who you've beaten."

-M. Avenatti
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 09:06 AM   #143
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,512
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Is it your argument that "Nazis" have somehow evolved into a more reasonable and tolerance deserving group?
Well, they certainly aren't equivalent in power and influence to their historical namesakes . . .

But you were right the first time. This whole Nazi:GOP as Antifa: Democratic Party is nothing more than an attempt to associate the other tribe with something evil/bad/violent. I would wager that the vast majority of members of both parties abhor Nazis and Antifa in equal measure.

I'd also be willing to bet that there ARE indeed good people who find themselves mixed up with extremist movements and ideologies. This is a timely topic because there's a movie coming out called Best of Enemies about CP Ellis, an "Exalted Cyclops" of the KKK who gets involved in the segregation battle, befriends Ann Atwater (a black civil rights activist) and has a change of heart. I saw a documentary about the real life story and the whole thing moved me to tears.

When are we gonna stop this tribal warfare nonsense? Being humans . . . probably never.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 09:13 AM   #144
ahhell
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,749
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Is it your argument that "Nazis" have somehow evolved into a more reasonable and tolerance deserving group?
No, but comparing American NAZIs of now to that of the German NAZI's of the 1930s and 40s is no less silly as comparing modern antifa to Stalinists of 1930s Russia.

So, what is the goal of antifa? If its just to oppose fascism, I don't see much value in that. If its to actually stop fascists from gaining power or influence, that's worthwhile but I don't see much evidence that antifa's methods being all that effective and seem to be rather counter productive.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 09:14 AM   #145
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,580
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Well, they certainly aren't equivalent in power and influence to their historical namesakes . . .

But you were right the first time. This whole Nazi:GOP as Antifa: Democratic Party is nothing more than an attempt to associate the other tribe with something evil/bad/violent. I would wager that the vast majority of members of both parties abhor Nazis and Antifa in equal measure.
Where are the explicitly antifa democratic party candidates? We have quite a few explicitly nazi republican candidates so to be equivalent there must be some democratic party candidates who are similar.

At least can we all agree that spreading nazi propaganda is a bad thing for a president of the US to do? No matter how fine he thinks the nazis are?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 09:16 AM   #146
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,580
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
No, but comparing American NAZIs of now to that of the German NAZI's of the 1930s and 40s is no less silly as comparing modern antifa to Stalinists of 1930s Russia.

So, what is the goal of antifa? If its just to oppose fascism, I don't see much value in that. If its to actually stop fascists from gaining power or influence, that's worthwhile but I don't see much evidence that antifa's methods being all that effective and seem to be rather counter productive.
All the ties to nazis didn't hurt Trump ever. As for their methods, well they resulted in arrests of those violent proud boys in NYC that the police were OK with. But the video of their violence gets out and suddenly the police care about violent nazis. Clearly that is not effective and counter productive. Keep the violent nazis on the streets, that is the best solution.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 09:21 AM   #147
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 75,787
Originally Posted by baron View Post
'So to speak' meaning they don't actually shout, they type. Anyone who calls for violence and fascism is the rough equivalent of those who carry it out.
Sorry, I can't agree to that. Thought is not the same as speech, and speech is not the same as physical violence.

Quote:
They are, but lack of organisation is not a virtue. The only reason they don't organise is that they see order as the domain of fascist authority. They don't want to be controlled, they're free, nobody tells them what to do.
Right, but it's hard to characterise all of antifa, then.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 09:26 AM   #148
Stankeye
Thinker
 
Stankeye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 236
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Does anyone else see it like me?

The vast majority of people voting do not support the Stalinists on the left, or the Nazis on the right. They support the official that is closest to their views.

it seems that the extremist activists on both sides are able to influence people to think that anyone who votes one way or the other is taking their position. The media helps this illusion.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/6...923/dgdtox.png
That graph is wrong.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1994-2017.jpg (24.8 KB, 28 views)
Stankeye is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 09:31 AM   #149
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,033
Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Supporting extrajudicial violence and vigilantism without due process of law is an extreme position and when you say you support fighting fascists, fascists according to whom exactly?
https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/...n_flag_to.html

Since you're a Portland atheist, could you tell us what happened to the guy who was allegedly left lying in a pool of blood? At the time, August 20, and the days following the alleged event, I tried to find out more. I was hoping that something would have appeared in the meantime, but I can still find only references to the original article.
For some reason I can't find any photos of the pool of blood he was allegedly lying in. I also don't see any blood on his hands in any of the photos from the street or the video.
Why didn't he appear in an interview or a talk show since Aug. 20? His allegedly fellow Bernie fans should have had plenty of time to contact him, interview him and let him know that they would accompany him to make sure that he wouldn't be harmed at the next demonstration.
Why didn't at least another Portland newspaper or website follow up on the story?!
He allegedly helped out at other left-wing demonstrations, but why hasn't anybody come forward to say that they remember him? Why didn't oregonlive.com follow up on a story that got so much publicity in the conservative media?

I've asked about this before, but nobody seems to know anything:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post12404372
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post12404455
Is this a story that one might ask snopes.com to investigate?!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 24th October 2018 at 09:39 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 09:32 AM   #150
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 11,599
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Truth. Antifa hates neo-nazis, They have no love for Democrats. Right-wingers assume that if you are against nazis, you must be for Democrats.

Which is a little unnerving when you think about it.
I agree, but that doesn't mean that some Democrats in some areas (mine and Berkeley specifically) are fellow travelers with the antis.
__________________
"When a man who is honestly mistaken, hears the truth, he will either cease being mistaken or cease being honest." - Anonymous

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 09:50 AM   #151
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,033
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I agree. The problem is that in this case, the person who kicked the dog isn't the same person who helped the old lady cross the street.

They both call themselve Antifa. That doesn't make them the same person. Antifa is simply an emblem you put on yourself. You exclaim to the world "I am anti-fascist and believe in direct action".

It doesn't matter. You know that they're all the same.
No, wait! They aren't!
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 09:52 AM   #152
Delphic Oracle
Master Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,571
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Nowadays there's usually a "yes, but...".

If Nazis are bad, opposing Nazis must be good. If the Nazis bring violence, using violence against them must be morally right, yes?

Because the Nazis are violent by definition, there must therefore be moral justification to be violent towards Nazis.

Now, about that middle ground. How about we say "Nazis are bad" and end it there with a full stop. We don't go "but... Antifa something something". That makes it look like you're apologizing for Nazis, who, as we've agreed, are bad.
If you glance up at the thread title, you'll see why maybe that is a totally sensible redirect in this context.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 09:54 AM   #153
Delphic Oracle
Master Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,571
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I agree, but that doesn't mean that some Democrats in some areas (mine and Berkeley specifically) are fellow travelers with the antis.
I'd say Berkeley are among the last Antifa who would endorse the institutional left, Bay Area Antifa is off. the. chart.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 10:12 AM   #154
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 11,599
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I'd say Berkeley are among the last Antifa who would endorse the institutional left, Bay Area Antifa is off. the. chart.
I have no idea what may be the political leanings of the jury, but there's this:

https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/06...rump-supporter

"March 4, 2017, brought a day of violent political clashes to downtown Berkeley’s Civic Center Park. The event, dubbed the “March on Berkeley” by its pro-Trump organizers, was the first of several large protests in the city in 2017 that would pit pro- and anti-Trump activists against each other. There were verbal altercations and street brawls. And despite efforts by some to keep events peaceful, nearly every rally resulted in violence and arrests. Both sides have blamed the other for provoking the fights.

Wednesday, a trial began in Alameda County Superior Court where jurors have been asked to decide if five self-described “anti-fascist” defendants are guilty of attacking Trump supporter Moshe Daniel Quillinan during his evaluation by Berkeley firefighters for a large cut on his head that ultimately required 10 staples to close, according to testimony last week.

Update, 3:45 p.m. The jury has found all five defendants not guilty of misdemeanor assault, and not guilty of assault causing great bodily injury, also a misdemeanor. About 30 supporters of the defendants were in the courtroom for the reading of the verdicts, which began at about 3:40 p.m. Some cried quietly as the clerk read the decisions for each person. After the reading, there was a brief round of applause before the judge released the jury."
__________________
"When a man who is honestly mistaken, hears the truth, he will either cease being mistaken or cease being honest." - Anonymous

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 10:16 AM   #155
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,580
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I have no idea what may be the political leanings of the jury, but there's this:

https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/06...rump-supporter

"March 4, 2017, brought a day of violent political clashes to downtown Berkeley’s Civic Center Park. The event, dubbed the “March on Berkeley” by its pro-Trump organizers, was the first of several large protests in the city in 2017 that would pit pro- and anti-Trump activists against each other. There were verbal altercations and street brawls. And despite efforts by some to keep events peaceful, nearly every rally resulted in violence and arrests. Both sides have blamed the other for provoking the fights.

Wednesday, a trial began in Alameda County Superior Court where jurors have been asked to decide if five self-described “anti-fascist” defendants are guilty of attacking Trump supporter Moshe Daniel Quillinan during his evaluation by Berkeley firefighters for a large cut on his head that ultimately required 10 staples to close, according to testimony last week.

Update, 3:45 p.m. The jury has found all five defendants not guilty of misdemeanor assault, and not guilty of assault causing great bodily injury, also a misdemeanor. About 30 supporters of the defendants were in the courtroom for the reading of the verdicts, which began at about 3:40 p.m. Some cried quietly as the clerk read the decisions for each person. After the reading, there was a brief round of applause before the judge released the jury."
Yep and the police were right not to arrest the proud boys at the time here.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/proud-b...es-2018-10-22/

Odd that they seem to be arresting them now. Those fine upstanding police oriented men clearly are the victims of the antifa.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 10:37 AM   #156
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,919
Look, this stuff isn't difficult.

1. Liberals/democrats are right-wingers. Just because you (ie Americans) cut off the entire left side of the spectrum with the Red Scares and then managed to delude yourselves into thinking that liberals are the left and conservatives the right doesn't make it so, liberals are moderate right-wingers and conservatives are hard right-wingers.

2. Antifa has nothing to do with the right, neither with the liberals nor with the conservatives. Antifa is made up of left-wingers (socialists, communists, anarchists, etc) who join forces to oppose fascism. Antifa hence does not have a specific political goal outside of fighting fascism, it's just the result of leftists putting their differences aside to cooperate in fighting fascism.

3. The reason Antifa fights fascism is because the left is the primary target of fascists, the camps in Spain, Italy, Germany, etc filled up with leftists long before the fascists moved on to different targets. In other words, because fascists constitute an existential threat to leftists. The fascists don't care what specific type of leftist someone is, hence why leftists go "We have a common existential threat, let's cooperate to fight it" and Antifa is the result of that.

4. Fascists don't give a flying **** about free speech, it's just a way for them to get the liberals to do their bidding. When fascists come together to march it has nothing to do with free speech, it has to do with asserting power and control over the streets. If they are not countered it feeds into their self-esteem and feeling of power and they'll continue to hunt leftists/minorities/homeless/etc in the city after the march.

5. Fascists are really cry-babies. If they do get countered then after the march they go home to cry about it on the internet and the city remains safe from packs of fascists hunting people. That crying and complaints about free speech are simply a way to get the liberals to do their bidding for them.

6. Violence is the only language they understand and it is also the only language they speak. It's not like everything else hasn't been tried on them already. It simply is what it is, hence the saying "If you can't convince a fascist then acquaint his head with the pavement."

7. Antifa does not defend liberal capitalist democracy from fascists, almost all people in Antifa are leftists and hence anti-capitalist. However the unspoken rule in Antifa is that internal political differences are set aside to fight fascism together, and that outside of that groups or individuals just do their own thing. Meaning that, even though Antifa is leftist in the sense that almost all people involved are various shades of leftists, Antifa itself merely exists to fight fascism, nothing more and nothing less.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 10:51 AM   #157
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 30,151
Originally Posted by paiute View Post
That's as likely as calling the computer help desk and getting the Amish guy.
Sorry, could you rephrase your claim clearly in terms of the topic we're actually discussing?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 10:57 AM   #158
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 41,534
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I agree, but that doesn't mean that some Democrats in some areas (mine and Berkeley specifically) are fellow travelers with the antis.
I can so testify.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 11:01 AM   #159
The Shrike
Illuminator
 
The Shrike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,694
I think I agree with all of this, but especially the first one:

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Look, this stuff isn't difficult.
1. Liberals/democrats are right-wingers. Just because you (ie Americans) cut off the entire left side of the spectrum with the Red Scares and then managed to delude yourselves into thinking that liberals are the left and conservatives the right doesn't make it so, liberals are moderate right-wingers and conservatives are hard right-wingers.
I'm gobsmacked when people label the American Democratic Party as liberal and/or leftist. The Democratic National Committee is, politically, about as leftist as mainstream Republicans were during the Reagan years. Obama is demonized by the right but he was despised as a turncoat by the real left for things like drone strikes, deportation rates of illegal aliens, being way too corporate friendly, needing to "evolve" on gay marriage, etc. There is no major liberal party in the US. That's why Bernie Sanders energized so many people in 2016.
The Shrike is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 11:01 AM   #160
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 41,534
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Look, this stuff isn't difficult.

1. Liberals/democrats are right-wingers. Just because you (ie Americans) cut off the entire left side of the spectrum with the Red Scares and then managed to delude yourselves into thinking that liberals are the left and conservatives the right doesn't make it so, liberals are moderate right-wingers and conservatives are hard right-wingers.

2. Antifa has nothing to do with the right, neither with the liberals nor with the conservatives. Antifa is made up of left-wingers (socialists, communists, anarchists, etc) who join forces to oppose fascism. Antifa hence does not have a specific political goal outside of fighting fascism, it's just the result of leftists putting their differences aside to cooperate in fighting fascism.

3. The reason Antifa fights fascism is because the left is the primary target of fascists, the camps in Spain, Italy, Germany, etc filled up with leftists long before the fascists moved on to different targets. In other words, because fascists constitute an existential threat to leftists. The fascists don't care what specific type of leftist someone is, hence why leftists go "We have a common existential threat, let's cooperate to fight it" and Antifa is the result of that.

4. Fascists don't give a flying **** about free speech, it's just a way for them to get the liberals to do their bidding. When fascists come together to march it has nothing to do with free speech, it has to do with asserting power and control over the streets. If they are not countered it feeds into their self-esteem and feeling of power and they'll continue to hunt leftists/minorities/homeless/etc in the city after the march.

5. Fascists are really cry-babies. If they do get countered then after the march they go home to cry about it on the internet and the city remains safe from packs of fascists hunting people. That crying and complaints about free speech are simply a way to get the liberals to do their bidding for them.

6. Violence is the only language they understand and it is also the only language they speak. It's not like everything else hasn't been tried on them already. It simply is what it is, hence the saying "If you can't convince a fascist then acquaint his head with the pavement."

7. Antifa does not defend liberal capitalist democracy from fascists, almost all people in Antifa are leftists and hence anti-capitalist. However the unspoken rule in Antifa is that internal political differences are set aside to fight fascism together, and that outside of that groups or individuals just do their own thing. Meaning that, even though Antifa is leftist in the sense that almost all people involved are various shades of leftists, Antifa itself merely exists to fight fascism, nothing more and nothing less.
And, pray tell, what do you define as a fascist?
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:03 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.