ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags antifa

Reply
Old 24th October 2018, 11:02 AM   #161
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 39,198
Originally Posted by baron View Post
I consider them as bad. They embrace Antifa ideology but baulk at joining in the violence so they shout encouragement from the sidelines, so to speak. As I say, if people want to protest against fascism there are 101 groups you can join, or ways to do it, without involving yourself with a group that is renowned for espousing violence and fascist tactics. Joining such a group - and certainly remaining within that group - says something in and of itself.

However, I suspect many members of Antifa are simply social inadequates looking to belong. The are unable to make a go of life so they seek approval using whatever means fall within their limited grasp. Don a mask, whack someone with a bike lock and hey presto, you're surrounded by friends and you're fighting for a cause. Your life has meaning and as an added bonus it gets you out of your mother's basement every Saturday.
Have you taken your theory to any former members of the Lincoln Brigade?
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 11:02 AM   #162
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 41,539
Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
I think I agree with all of this, but especially the first one:



I'm gobsmacked when people label the American Democratic Party as liberal and/or leftist. The Democratic National Committee is, politically, about as leftist as mainstream Republicans were during the Reagan years. Obama is demonized by the right but he was despised as a turncoat by the real left for things like drone strikes, deportation rates of illegal aliens, being way too corporate friendly, needing to "evolve" on gay marriage, etc. There is no major liberal party in the US. That's why Bernie Sanders energized so many people in 2016.
And what would you replace the evil Captilaist system with?
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 11:04 AM   #163
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 41,539
What is scary is how many "progressives" here seem all on board with attacking anybody they deem is a "fascist".
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 11:14 AM   #164
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,992
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What is scary is how many "progressives" here seem all on board with attacking anybody they deem is a "fascist".
Depends on the definition they use.
Which is very narrow.

It's not like groups like Patriot Prayer or Proud Boys are very secret.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isnít.

Last edited by The Great Zaganza; 24th October 2018 at 11:17 AM.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 11:16 AM   #165
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 11,599
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Just using your logic. Antifa are all terrorists, cops are all nazis, makes things so simple.
They don't rate that high as a threat.

They are the left's equivalent to the white power mental defectives that showed up in operator drag to "protect" that Bundy ******* - they're just wearing different drag.
__________________
"When a man who is honestly mistaken, hears the truth, he will either cease being mistaken or cease being honest." - Anonymous

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 11:47 AM   #166
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 41,539
What it amounts to violence against people whose politics I don't like is fine, as long as the people I support are the ones commiting the violence.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 11:48 AM   #167
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 41,539
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
They don't rate that high as a threat.

They are the left's equivalent to the white power mental defectives that showed up in operator drag to "protect" that Bundy ******* - they're just wearing different drag.
What is disturbing to me is how many mainstream Progressives here seem to support Antifa when they turn violent....
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 11:56 AM   #168
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 11,599
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What is disturbing to me is how many mainstream Progressives here seem to support Antifa when they turn violent....
It's a variation of the Latin phrase in my Sig - War (violence) is only sweet to those who have no knowledge of it.
__________________
"When a man who is honestly mistaken, hears the truth, he will either cease being mistaken or cease being honest." - Anonymous

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 12:00 PM   #169
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,992
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What it amounts to violence against people whose politics I don't like is fine, as long as the people I support are the ones commiting the violence.
not necessarily.
Historically, those more to the left have been much quicker in condemning violence from their side of the spectrum than those on the right have.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isnít.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 12:08 PM   #170
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 75,875
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
It's a variation of the Latin phrase in my Sig - War (violence) is only sweet to those who have no knowledge of it.
And a nice illustration of how awesomely short you can make sentences in Latin.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 12:24 PM   #171
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,602
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
They don't rate that high as a threat.

They are the left's equivalent to the white power mental defectives that showed up in operator drag to "protect" that Bundy ******* - they're just wearing different drag.
And of course are far less violent and kill vastly fewer people but at least those guys have the cops on their side. What cop wants to arrest some fellow traveling white supremacist anyway? That is why they let them go until the videos by the antifa get out. Then suddenly they want to arrest them for the crimes they committed.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 12:26 PM   #172
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,602
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What is disturbing to me is how many mainstream Progressives here seem to support Antifa when they turn violent....
It is amazing that so many mainstream conservatives here are happy to let the police murder people with near impunity but there you go.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 01:07 PM   #173
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,160
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
No, but comparing American NAZIs of now to that of the German NAZI's of the 1930s and 40s is no less silly as comparing modern antifa to Stalinists of 1930s Russia.

So, what is the goal of antifa? If its just to oppose fascism, I don't see much value in that. If its to actually stop fascists from gaining power or influence, that's worthwhile but I don't see much evidence that antifa's methods being all that effective and seem to be rather counter productive.
It is to stop fascists from gaining power or influence. I don't think their methods are counter productive. They helped drive the Nazis underground again after Charlottesville. Nowadays the alt-right fascists are glad to get 20 people show up at their rallies, and they are always drowned out by the counter-protesters.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 01:08 PM   #174
The Shrike
Illuminator
 
The Shrike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,697
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And what would you replace the evil Captilaist system with?
A less evil Capitalist system that makes it more difficult for a tiny number of people to grow stupid-rich and obtain a lock on the political power?
The Shrike is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 01:25 PM   #175
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 11,599
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course are far less violent and kill vastly fewer people but at least those guys have the cops on their side. What cop wants to arrest some fellow traveling white supremacist anyway? That is why they let them go until the videos by the antifa get out. Then suddenly they want to arrest them for the crimes they committed.
Proving my point that ridicule hits authoritarians of any stripe harder than blows.

You can't deal with the fact that antifa is a bunch of marginal idiots functionally no different than the marginal idiots they claim to be "protecting" us from.

Just be honest enough to admit it. You're in favor of vigilante mob violence with the proviso that you approve of who the victims are. I know plenty of right wing idiots that agree with you.
__________________
"When a man who is honestly mistaken, hears the truth, he will either cease being mistaken or cease being honest." - Anonymous

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 01:26 PM   #176
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 41,539
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It is to stop fascists from gaining power or influence. I don't think their methods are counter productive. They helped drive the Nazis underground again after Charlottesville. Nowadays the alt-right fascists are glad to get 20 people show up at their rallies, and they are always drowned out by the counter-protesters.
And I can use those same justifcations for violence to keep "Commies" from gaining power or influence.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 01:27 PM   #177
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 11,599
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is amazing that so many mainstream conservatives here are happy to let the police murder people with near impunity but there you go.
Like at Tiananmen Square?
__________________
"When a man who is honestly mistaken, hears the truth, he will either cease being mistaken or cease being honest." - Anonymous

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 01:31 PM   #178
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 41,539
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Proving my point that ridicule hits authoritarians of any stripe harder than blows.

You can't deal with the fact that antifa is a bunch of marginal idiots functionally no different than the marginal idiots they claim to be "protecting" us from.

Just be honest enough to admit it. You're in favor of vigilante mob violence with the proviso that you approve of who the victims are. I know plenty of right wing idiots that agree with you.
I cannot applaude this loudly enough.

I am no pacifist (as my sig shows) and if a Neo Nazi attacks you you have every right to defend yourself, but to go out and physically attack a person, however obnoxious,just because you don't like what he is saying is wrong,wrong,wrong.
And it is easy to advocate violence and be a heroic Revolutionary from the safety of your computer keyboard.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 01:32 PM   #179
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 11,599
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And I can use those same justifcations for violence to keep "Commies" from gaining power or influence.
No, no, NO!

LE, the military and intelligence services from socialist and communist nations have never violated anyone's rights that didn't have it coming.

Law enforcement misconduct was invented by fascists, perfected by Americans and has never been carried out by anyone other than those two groups.
__________________
"When a man who is honestly mistaken, hears the truth, he will either cease being mistaken or cease being honest." - Anonymous

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 01:34 PM   #180
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,160
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And I can use those same justifcations for violence to keep "Commies" from gaining power or influence.
If only there were domestic "Commie" terror groups and "Commies" in the White House and "Commies" marching in the streets shouting "Capitalists will not replace us" you'd even have had a point.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 01:35 PM   #181
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,160
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
No, no, NO!

LE, the military and intelligence services from socialist and communist nations have never violated anyone's rights that didn't have it coming.

Law enforcement misconduct was invented by fascists, perfected by Americans and has never been carried out by anyone other than those two groups.
Thank Dog nobody is talking about setting up a Communist state in the US then. The same can't be said of the other side.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 01:54 PM   #182
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,362
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And I can use those same justifcations for violence to keep "Commies" from gaining power or influence.
Well...

If those "Commies" were planning a violent attack on a community under the thin guise of "free speech":

If, this is known, as they themselves write these plans out in public, on the Internet:

If, when presented with evidence of this, both the town council and groups like the ACLU insist that this is idle talk, and the rally must be allowed under "free speech":

Would you not be grateful if a group similarly outfitted for violence (let's call them "antico") showed up to fight in defense of nonviolent protestors, houses of worship, and civilians that simply lived in the town, particularly if you knew that police had a nasty habit of allowing "Commies" to run rampant?

Note that this is what happened in Charlottesville. And by the way, shame on the ACLU for siding with the white nationalists, I'm happy they said they'll be more careful in the future, but they dropped the ball hard on that one.

I don't quite buy that "Unite the Right 2" was a bust just because of Antifa. That one was in DC, where the police are much less tolerant of weapons, and there's a much larger, and far more hostile surrounding population. Nevertheless, an even battle was preferable to white nationalists rampaging through the streets and murdering innocent people, which was their plan.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 02:46 PM   #183
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 6,817
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It is to stop fascists from gaining power or influence. I don't think their methods are counter productive. They helped drive the Nazis underground again after Charlottesville. Nowadays the alt-right fascists are glad to get 20 people show up at their rallies, and they are always drowned out by the counter-protesters.
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Thank Dog nobody is talking about setting up a Communist state in the US then. The same can't be said of the other side.
Please don't get your news sources about America from BBC or the Local. You have a warped view of what goes on in America. The America you describe is a fantasy land.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 02:48 PM   #184
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 41,539
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Please don't get your news sources about America from BBC or the Local. You have a warped view of what goes on in America. The America you describe is a fantasy land.
Maybe, but so the version of America presented on Fox News and Briebart.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 06:14 PM   #185
Delvo
الشيطان الأبيض
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 7,514
One side picks out the worst image they can find somewhere in the other side and acts as if that were the entire other side? Wow, it's unprecedented!
Delvo is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 11:45 PM   #186
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,835
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
No, anti-facist doesn't mean anti-conservative.
So you agree that conservatives are not fascists?

Quote:
If you uphold democracy, Antifa has no beef with you.
But plenty Republicans support voter suppression aimed at minorities, which is explicitly anti-democratic.
Yeah, as Ned Stark said, everything before the "but" is bullcrap.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 11:47 PM   #187
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,835
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Proving my point that ridicule hits authoritarians of any stripe harder than blows.

You can't deal with the fact that antifa is a bunch of marginal idiots functionally no different than the marginal idiots they claim to be "protecting" us from.

Just be honest enough to admit it. You're in favor of vigilante mob violence with the proviso that you approve of who the victims are. I know plenty of right wing idiots that agree with you.
Excellently stated, sir!
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2018, 11:49 PM   #188
Lambchops
Muse
 
Lambchops's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Norvegr
Posts: 667
Lol, no.
__________________
Remember what Ol' Dirty said.
Lambchops is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2018, 12:54 AM   #189
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 9,541
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I cannot applaude this loudly enough.

I am no pacifist (as my sig shows) and if a Neo Nazi attacks you you have every right to defend yourself, but to go out and physically attack a person, however obnoxious,just because you don't like what he is saying is wrong,wrong,wrong.
And it is easy to advocate violence and be a heroic Revolutionary from the safety of your computer keyboard.
100% agree

We recently had some far-right wing speakers coming to this country (Lauren Southern and Stefan Molyneux) for a public speaking engagement. They were basically stopped in their tracks because in one case, the Mayor of Auckland, Phill Goff, refused to grant them use of a Council owned Hall, and then the second privately owned venues cancelled the events after they received threats of violence, vandalism and retribution.

I find the racist and bigoted views of these two speakers, Southern and Molyneux, disgusting. But I am just as disgusted they they were not allowed to express their opinions. However outrageous we might find their rhetoric, a properly civilised society would not have prevented them from exercising their free speech rights.

Stifling of free speech is not the second wrong that makes the first wrong right.
__________________
As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2018, 12:59 AM   #190
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,160
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
100% agree

We recently had some far-right wing speakers coming to this country (Lauren Southern and Stefan Molyneux) for a public speaking engagement. They were basically stopped in their tracks because in one case, the Mayor of Auckland, Phill Goff, refused to grant them use of a Council owned Hall, and then the second privately owned venues cancelled the events after they received threats of violence, vandalism and retribution.

I find the racist and bigoted views of these two speakers, Southern and Molyneux, disgusting. But I am just as disgusted they they were not allowed to express their opinions. However outrageous we might find their rhetoric, a properly civilised society would not have prevented them from exercising their free speech rights.

Stifling of free speech is not the second wrong that makes the first wrong right.
Perfect use of no-platforming to help stop the spread of the alt-right infection.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2018, 01:11 AM   #191
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,992
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
So you agree that conservatives are not fascists?
.
Conservatism isn't Fascism.

but plenty of current self-declared Conservatives are clearly authoritarian, xenophobic and nationalistic (including the President).
They are also much quicker to condemn left-wing than right-wing violence, even though the latter is objectively more problematic today.

It isn't unreasonable to remind Republicans what their current rhetoric and policies resemble, historically,
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isnít.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2018, 01:39 AM   #192
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,362
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
100% agree

We recently had some far-right wing speakers coming to this country (Lauren Southern and Stefan Molyneux) for a public speaking engagement. They were basically stopped in their tracks because in one case, the Mayor of Auckland, Phill Goff, refused to grant them use of a Council owned Hall, and then the second privately owned venues cancelled the events after they received threats of violence, vandalism and retribution.

I find the racist and bigoted views of these two speakers, Southern and Molyneux, disgusting. But I am just as disgusted they they were not allowed to express their opinions. However outrageous we might find their rhetoric, a properly civilised society would not have prevented them from exercising their free speech rights.

Stifling of free speech is not the second wrong that makes the first wrong right.
Here's the thing:

We've seen a number of these genocidal speakers basically quit. Their funding is choked off, they can't really make ends meet, they have to go work at...McDonald's or whatever.

Why?

In their own words, they were deplatformed. They can't spread their message, they aren't recruiting anyone. When's the last time you heard of that Milo whatever guy? And did we lose anything of substance when he up and vanished?

So Lauren Southern and Stephan Molyneux were banned. So, in terms of real debate about anything aside from "aboriginals are low IQ, they deserved what they got." One's a white nationalist, the other a cult leader wannabe. Why give them a platform to begin with?

As an American, we try to keep government out of these issues as much as possible, but I think it's fine if everyone looks at a conference that invites, say, Steve Bannon, and just says "I'm out, unless he's out". Instead of just having friendly talks, or even supposedly hostile talks, with bigots of any sort, why not starve them out entirely?

It's not like this is just some friendly chat - the nationalists, the supremacists, are serious about their goals of eventually killing as people as possible...
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2018, 01:41 AM   #193
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,362
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Conservatism isn't Fascism.

but plenty of current self-declared Conservatives are clearly authoritarian, xenophobic and nationalistic (including the President).
They are also much quicker to condemn left-wing than right-wing violence, even though the latter is objectively more problematic today.

It isn't unreasonable to remind Republicans what their current rhetoric and policies resemble, historically,
Yep. It's a serious mistake to consider "Republican" as anything but a label for a political party.

(and yes, the same does go for "democrat", "libertarian", and so on)
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2018, 01:51 AM   #194
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,160
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Conservatism isn't Fascism.

but plenty of current self-declared Conservatives are clearly authoritarian, xenophobic and nationalistic (including the President).
They are also much quicker to condemn left-wing than right-wing violence, even though the latter is objectively more problematic today.

It isn't unreasonable to remind Republicans what their current rhetoric and policies resemble, historically,
The Conservative movement started as a reaction to the birth of liberal Democracy. The Conservatives worked to retain as much of the old way of absolute monarchistic rule as possible, and preferrably return to it alltogether. Fascism grew out of the Conservative movement.

Fascism is thus a subset of Conservative.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2018, 03:01 AM   #195
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,602
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Proving my point that ridicule hits authoritarians of any stripe harder than blows.
Of course it is the same antifa doing the recording, so you are against the recording too. But you like to no true scotsman's them out of existence.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2018, 03:04 AM   #196
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,602
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Like at Tiananmen Square?
Those were foreign police. I mean it is really kind of shocking that the police in the march on selma dealing with those criminal protestors get criticised now. If it happened today they would be national heroes. That is exactly the response people want to criminal protests blocking highways.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2018, 03:05 AM   #197
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,602
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Law enforcement misconduct was invented by fascists, perfected by Americans and has never been carried out by anyone other than those two groups.
How is it misconduct when it is near universal? That seems to be basic conduct. Cops love their fellow fascists, and only act against them in the most extreme situations.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2018, 03:08 AM   #198
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,602
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Perfect use of no-platforming to help stop the spread of the alt-right infection.
But people are entitled to a platform to preach for the extermination of the lesser races!
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2018, 03:09 AM   #199
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,602
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Here's the thing:

We've seen a number of these genocidal speakers basically quit. Their funding is choked off, they can't really make ends meet, they have to go work at...McDonald's or whatever.
Which is of course worse than actual genocide.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2018, 03:18 AM   #200
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,857
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Here's the thing:

We've seen a number of these genocidal speakers basically quit. Their funding is choked off, they can't really make ends meet, they have to go work at...McDonald's or whatever.

Why?

In their own words, they were deplatformed. They can't spread their message, they aren't recruiting anyone. When's the last time you heard of that Milo whatever guy? And did we lose anything of substance when he up and vanished?

So Lauren Southern and Stephan Molyneux were banned. So, in terms of real debate about anything aside from "aboriginals are low IQ, they deserved what they got." One's a white nationalist, the other a cult leader wannabe. Why give them a platform to begin with?

As an American, we try to keep government out of these issues as much as possible, but I think it's fine if everyone looks at a conference that invites, say, Steve Bannon, and just says "I'm out, unless he's out". Instead of just having friendly talks, or even supposedly hostile talks, with bigots of any sort, why not starve them out entirely?

It's not like this is just some friendly chat - the nationalists, the supremacists, are serious about their goals of eventually killing as people as possible...
My God, people actually believe this crap? It's pretty easy to defend free speech when free speech is defined as stuff you agree with, not to mention morally bankrupt.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:50 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.