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Old 6th November 2018, 06:27 AM   #321
varwoche
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
You really need to remove those blinders. Evidence of Liberal tactics is easy to see as it has become commonplace.

My own Senator Mitch McConnell was accosted while trying to have a bite at a local Louisville eatery. As well many other Republicans have been targeted in public and private.
The people who disrupted McConnell's meal were obnoxious. But get a grip, that doesn't make them Antifa. There is not one significant Dem on record supporting Antifa. And clearly, Antifa has no use for Dems. The way you coalesce 'facts' is akin to a rorshalk test.

Yes, random Democratic meanies have harassed public figures. (Which I denounce.) Meanwhile, your Fuhrer explicitly threatened violence against protesters who were behaving legally. Cry me a river of Amazonian proportion.
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Old 6th November 2018, 06:34 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
The people who disrupted McConnell's meal were obnoxious. But get a grip, that doesn't make them Antifa. There is not one significant Dem on record supporting Antifa. And clearly, Antifa has no use for Dems. The way you coalesce 'facts' is akin to a rorshalk test.

Yes, random Democratic meanies have harassed public figures. (Which I denounce.) Meanwhile, your Fuhrer explicitly threatened violence against protesters who were behaving legally. Cry me a river of Amazonian proportion.
Why? They are excersising their right to free speech, aren't they? As long as they aren't promoting violence or hate.

Edited: Execute?
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Old 6th November 2018, 06:36 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Why? They are executing their right to free speech, aren't they? As long as they aren't promoting violence or hate.
That only applies to harassing women going into planned parenthood though. It shouldn't apply to petitioning government officials.
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Old 6th November 2018, 06:38 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Why? They are executing their right to free speech, aren't they? As long as they aren't promoting violence or hate.
You see, every school, church, temple, or yoga studio should have armed security in case some MAGA-boy goes on a suicide mission, but politicians should be able to move freely in restaurants without having mean things said to them. Civility.
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Old 6th November 2018, 06:43 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Why? They are excersising their right to free speech, aren't they? As long as they aren't promoting violence or hate.

Edited: Execute?
Mainly because it's counter-productive. It achieves nothing positive whatsoever, and meanwhile it gives the right effective talking points.
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Old 6th November 2018, 06:44 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Mainly because it's counter-productive. It achieves nothing positive whatsoever, and meanwhile it gives the right effective talking points.
I disagree. I want to see more of that kind of thing. More protests of all (peaceful) kinds. Civility doesn't matter anymore.
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Old 6th November 2018, 06:49 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I disagree. I want to see more of that kind of thing. More protests of all (peaceful) kinds. Civility doesn't matter anymore.
More peaceful protests, but the goal should be to try to persuade those voters out there that are persuadable. Yelling at Mitch McConnell might be very gratifying personally, but I doubt it has much influence on the voting public. Credibility is important.

I think of those weirdos who stand outside Planned Parenthood and scream at young women and parade around with pictures of mangled fetuses. Have they helped their cause or hurt it? Sure, they are protesting, but their tactics make their entire viewpoint look kinda nuts and full of villains. Someone who wasn't already in the tank for the pro-life movement could easily be turned off by such tactics.

It's a careful line to walk, but being seen as jerks who harass people at dinner probably isn't a winning play. It's not because McConnell deserves peace, but a matter of political pragmatism.
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Old 6th November 2018, 06:50 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
More peaceful protests, but the goal should be to try to persuade those voters out there that are persuadable. Yelling at Mitch McConnell might be very gratifying personally, but I doubt it has much influence on the voting public. Credibility is important.

I think of those weirdos who stand outside Planned Parenthood and scream at young women and parade around with pictures of mangled fetuses. Have they helped their cause or hurt it? Sure, they are protesting, but their tactics make their entire viewpoint look kinda nuts and full of villains. Someone who wasn't already in the tank for the pro-life movement could easily be turned off by such tactics.
There's a difference. They are screaming at private citizens utilizing their right to an abortion. The protesters in the restaurant were protesting a public figure who has the power to make decisions over other people's rights.

I'd also add that decorum doesn't matter, nor does worrying about giving the right "ammo". The right wing will say whatever they want about you anyway, and if they can't find any instances of Democrats behaving badly, they will invent some. Civility and decorum are dead. The GOP killed them. Only way to bring them back is to use whatever (peaceful) means necessary to get the GOP out of power.
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Old 6th November 2018, 06:52 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I disagree. I want to see more of that kind of thing. More protests of all (peaceful) kinds. Civility doesn't matter anymore.
If your goal is to promote conflict because the only way this will get sorted out is by a civil war of sorts, whatever. But if your goal is to win the 2018 election, I'm confident that you're misguided.
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Old 6th November 2018, 06:56 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
If your goal is to promote conflict because the only way this will get sorted out is by a civil war of sorts, whatever. But if your goal is to win the 2018 election, I'm confident that you're misguided.
Do you believe that about protests in general or specifically protesting elected officials in restaurants?
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Old 6th November 2018, 06:57 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
There's a difference. They are screaming at private citizens utilizing their right to an abortion. The protesters in the restaurant were protesting a public figure who has the power to make decisions over other people's rights.

I'd also add that decorum doesn't matter, nor does worrying about giving the right "ammo". The right wing will say whatever they want about you anyway, and if they can't find any instances of Democrats behaving badly, they will invent some. Civility and decorum are dead. The GOP killed them. Only way to bring them back is to use whatever (peaceful) means necessary to get the GOP out of power.
Sure, whatever effective means for removing the corrupt GOP from power should be used. I don't think this approach is likely to be effective, but measuring that is difficult. It's one event in a massive sea of other events, it's hard to measure response.

I will say, that historically, "law and order" has been an effective for the right to successfully demonize the left in the past, even in cases where the left is morally correct in their politics. Winning political power is all that matters.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:00 AM   #332
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The GOP steal elections. I don't care how they are treated as long as it's not violent. They should be shamed so much that they can't enjoy dinner anywhere except Mar-A-Lago. I have no sympathy for fascists.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:01 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Do you believe that about protests in general or specifically protesting elected officials in restaurants?
The latter, although I don't confine it to restaurants.

I wish for massive peaceful protests. So massive the country is virtually shut down, starting with every street block where there's a Trump hotel. But we digress here.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:16 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
As a reminder, Obama inherited a $1.4 trillion deficit in 2009 from Dubya's Republican Government, during an international financial crisis, and thanks to Dubya's complete lack of fiscal prudence, and DESPITE having little choice but to bail out Banks and industries, and DESPITE having a flipped house working against him during from 2011 to 2016, STILL managed the massive task of reducing, the deficit by almost $750 million by the time he left office.

2009 $1,413
2010 $1,294
2011 $1,300
2012 $1,087
2013 $679
2014 $485
2015 $438.
2016 $585
2017 $665.

2018 $833
2019 $984
2020 $987 (proj)
2021 $916 (proj)


Facts anyone?
That doesn't make any sense. I have it on good authority that Republicans are fiscally responsible and Democrats are not.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:16 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
More peaceful protests, but the goal should be to try to persuade those voters out there that are persuadable. Yelling at Mitch McConnell might be very gratifying personally, but I doubt it has much influence on the voting public. Credibility is important.

I think of those weirdos who stand outside Planned Parenthood and scream at young women and parade around with pictures of mangled fetuses. Have they helped their cause or hurt it?
They certainly haven't hurt it.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:22 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Mainly because it's counter-productive. It achieves nothing positive whatsoever, and meanwhile it gives the right effective talking points.
Also it's being a dick.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:26 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Since you went there I have no choice but to point out Republicans actually received life threatening gunshot injuries from a Bernie supporter.........
Chris B.
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...=.7dfa3fb1ae1e

Right wing violence happens much, much more than from the left. This "both sides do it" nonsense is a ridiculous argument with no merit.
...especially from somebody whose initial claim was not that they're equal but that the far less violent side is somehow worse.

And the Republican legislator who was targeted with a gun had been voting for the Republicans' bills to deprive Americans of medical care, knowing perfectly well that that would kill thousands per year; shooting at people who vote for mass murder, or even treat mass murder of peasants as a legitimate thing for the aristocracy to vote on at all, is public defense at least, and potentially also self defense.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:33 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That doesn't make any sense. I have it on good authority that Republicans are fiscally responsible and Democrats are not.
They are in that instead of trying to clean up the mess they made, they let the grownups do it.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:33 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Why? They are excersising their right to free speech, aren't they? As long as they aren't promoting violence or hate.

Edited: Execute?
They are within their legal rights, far as I know, but it adds to the incivility of our already toxic political environment.

I'd rather that even public figures I loathe can eat in peace in restaurants.

(I am more ambivalent when it comes to an owner refusing service to a figure they despise. This is different than a crowd harassing political figures, I think.)
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:34 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
...especially from somebody whose initial claim was not that they're equal but that the far less violent side is somehow worse.

And the Republican legislator who was targeted with a gun had been voting for the Republicans' bills to deprive Americans of medical care, knowing perfectly well that that would kill thousands per year; shooting at people who vote for mass murder, or even treat mass murder of peasants as a legitimate thing for the aristocracy to vote on at all, is public defense at least, and potentially also self defense.
That sounds like a nice recipe for disaster: all we need to do is check all new laws, analyse whether passing it or not would result in more deaths, and kill those who've voted the wrong way.

What can go wrong?
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:34 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I disagree. I want to see more of that kind of thing. More protests of all (peaceful) kinds. Civility doesn't matter anymore.
Bullhonkies.

We have to return to a civil society, a place where disagreement doesn't make one my enemy, generally speaking.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:36 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Bullhonkies.

We have to return to a civil society, a place where disagreement doesn't make one my enemy, generally speaking.
Interesting. Loss of civility has been a bad thing, but the solution of some is to do the same, rather than seek to bring civility back.

I'm honestly not sure which of the two options is better.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:38 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Do you believe that about protests in general or specifically protesting elected officials in restaurants?
Surely, it depends on the protest.

Protesting elected officials in restaurants does no political good. Many other forms of protest also do no political good (shutting down rush hour traffic in the morning commute seems terribly counterproductive to me).

Other forms may well inform the public.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:38 AM   #344
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Selected passage from David Wong's "Vote Like the Fate Of The World Depends On It" (minor language cleanup to comply with the MA)
http://www.cracked.com/blog/vote-lik...ld-depends-it/ (Link contains some foul language)

Quote:
You might not have guessed this because I'm so well-adjusted, but I spent every Sunday growing up hearing that the Apocalypse was imminent -- within the year, maybe within the month or the hour. I would call the congregation "doomsday preppers," but here's the thing: They weren't prepping at all. They talked like the apocalypse was coming, describing in chilling detail how soon, the godless government would start beheading Christians. But they weren't spending their spare time stocking water, canned goods, or fuel. They walked out of those sermons about the impending starvation and pestilence and then went home to watch the Chicago Bears.

I don't think they were lying about their beliefs; it's just that those beliefs didn't exist anywhere outside of their skulls. They certainly didn't extend to their feet, which could have carried them to the hardware store to get water purification pills and a (censored) of batteries. They never propelled them to the library to study insurgency and guerrilla tactics. They believed the climactic battle with Satan was at hand, but they didn't believe it.

I'm bringing this up now because today I can open up my Twitter feed and see a meme about how only guns and guillotines will end the Trumpocalypse, followed minutes later by that exact same user lavishing praise on Red Dead Redemption 2. ("I'm 70 hours in and barely scratched the surface!")

So now, on the eve of a vote that can reverse the tide of history, I'm curious to see. All that talk for the last two years about how we're living under the new Hitler, do people really believe it? Or is it just, like, a thing we say?
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:39 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Bullhonkies.

We have to return to a civil society, a place where disagreement doesn't make one my enemy, generally speaking.
I agree. And the way (the only way as far as I'm concerned) to do that is to make sure the people who killed civility lose all power. To do that, civility can't be a factor.

Winning at all costs. Learn from the right or perish.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:40 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Surely, it depends on the protest.

Protesting elected officials in restaurants does no political good. Many other forms of protest also do no political good (shutting down rush hour traffic in the morning commute seems terribly counterproductive to me).

Other forms may well inform the public.
Protesting elected officials in elevators did seem to have had an effect though, however slight.

So, restaurants - no, elevators - yes?
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:42 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Selected passage from David Wong's "Vote Like the Fate Of The World Depends On It" (minor language cleanup to comply with the MA
http://www.cracked.com/blog/vote-lik...ld-depends-it/ (Link contains some foul language)
If one doesn't act on their beliefs, can we say they hold that belief at all?
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:43 AM   #348
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The fact that Democrats haven't spent the election season calling Republicans Nazis is a testimony to their civility.
Trump, otoh, has called Democrats enemies, traitors, evil, criminals, liars and cheaters.
Civility is very much the problem of one party's leader at the moment.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:43 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If one doesn't act on their beliefs, can we say they hold that belief at all?
Without getting too deep into hair splitting, no I don't think we can.

Like I've said for a long time if all this passion and anger doesn't translate into voter turnout, it really does have to be dismissed as just showy, lookit me nonsense.

And like David Wong said in the full article I've never wanted to be wrong about anything more in my life... but I really don't think I am.

Protesting, screaming, harassing people... this is fun. It's primal and visceral and makes you feel good. Voting is boring, there's no catharsis, no feedback.

This really is a "Put your money where your mouth is" moment for the current wave of Liberalism/Progressivism for me.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:43 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
...especially from somebody whose initial claim was not that they're equal but that the far less violent side is somehow worse.

And the Republican legislator who was targeted with a gun had been voting for the Republicans' bills to deprive Americans of medical care, knowing perfectly well that that would kill thousands per year; shooting at people who vote for mass murder, or even treat mass murder of peasants as a legitimate thing for the aristocracy to vote on at all, is public defense at least, and potentially also self defense.
******* ridiculous.

Not how a democracy works. This is a public policy dispute. The GOP has not installed death camps to eradicate minorities.

We can well think that the GOP's policies result in needless deaths. If so, we should shout that from the rafters, with evidence. It is not an excuse to gun them down, for God's sake.

Itching for a civil war, are you? Eager for the GOP faithful to respond in kind and plug a few Dems, so that you can, what, hunker down and protect your little bunker?

Read too much teen dystopian fiction perhaps?
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:45 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Interesting. Loss of civility has been a bad thing, but the solution of some is to do the same, rather than seek to bring civility back.

I'm honestly not sure which of the two options is better.
Bringing civility back is a tall order. It means playing decently when your opponent won't.

The alternative is to adopt his tactics and to pretend that, no matter, once you regain power, you'll turn all decent and good again. Sure. That's bound to happen.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:47 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
******* ridiculous.

Not how a democracy works. This is a public policy dispute. The GOP has not installed death camps to eradicate minorities.

We can well think that the GOP's policies result in needless deaths. If so, we should shout that from the rafters, with evidence. It is not an excuse to gun them down, for God's sake.

Itching for a civil war, are you? Eager for the GOP faithful to respond in kind and plug a few Dems, so that you can, what, hunker down and protect your little bunker?

Read too much teen dystopian fiction perhaps?
You're too easily dismissing that people literally have skin in the game of this public policy dispute. If the end legislation from the dispute would result in my death or the death of a loved one, I doubt I would be as dispassionate about it as you would like.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:48 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I agree. And the way (the only way as far as I'm concerned) to do that is to make sure the people who killed civility lose all power. To do that, civility can't be a factor.

Winning at all costs. Learn from the right or perish.
Sure. Win at all costs, and then you can bring back civility.

But why would you? You've already given up the moral high ground, hardened your hearts to concerns about honesty, decency and respect and (by hypothesis) crushed your opponent.

And then, noble being you are, you suddenly reverse course, become decent and reasonable again.

Yes, history is littered with examples of those who've adopted horrible means to gain power, only to relinquish those means and open the process back up to their former opponents, no harm done.

Which one of us is the realist here?
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:48 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Bringing civility back is a tall order. It means playing decently when your opponent won't.

The alternative is to adopt his tactics and to pretend that, no matter, once you regain power, you'll turn all decent and good again. Sure. That's bound to happen.
What's the solution then? Quick as you like. Election today.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:50 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Protesting elected officials in elevators did seem to have had an effect though, however slight.

So, restaurants - no, elevators - yes?
Elevators in the halls of government power? Yeah, I can deal with that. I'd prefer it was a bit less confrontational, but Flake is a man of principle who could be swayed by effective argument in that way.

Not an elevator in one's own residence, say.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:50 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Sure. Win at all costs, and then you can bring back civility.

But why would you? You've already given up the moral high ground, hardened your hearts to concerns about honesty, decency and respect and (by hypothesis) crushed your opponent.

And then, noble being you are, you suddenly reverse course, become decent and reasonable again.

Yes, history is littered with examples of those who've adopted horrible means to gain power, only to relinquish those means and open the process back up to their former opponents, no harm done.

Which one of us is the realist here?
Then you can sit on your ivory tower and look on as the GOP sweep every election.

At least you never gave up the moral high ground. That's just as good as stopping dangerous GOP policy, right?
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:51 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
What's the solution then? Quick as you like. Election today.
Vote. The thing that, statistically speaking, the young people doing the most protesting and "The End is Nigh"ing are least likely to do. The one thing built within the system that actually matters but for some reason the "DIS IS DA MOST IMPORTANT MOMENT IN HISTORY!" people sharing memes online seemingly never want to do.

Right now political outrage in the US is still largely at the "Well we've tried doing nothing and we're all out of ideas." stage.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:51 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If one doesn't act on their beliefs, can we say they hold that belief at all?
You pragmatist, you. (Philosophical sense, William James, etc.)
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:51 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Elevators in the halls of government power? Yeah, I can deal with that. I'd prefer it was a bit less confrontational, but Flake is a man of principle who could be swayed by effective argument in that way.

Not an elevator in one's own residence, say.
I'll get the word out.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:55 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
You're too easily dismissing that people literally have skin in the game of this public policy dispute. If the end legislation from the dispute would result in my death or the death of a loved one, I doubt I would be as dispassionate about it as you would like.
And so you would assassinate Congressmen involved in the decision?

I'm not dispassionate. I'm just not a friggin' nutcase. The exact same reasoning (with some less reliable beliefs) is precisely what led to the Squirrel Hill shooter, a man who felt aggrieved by the dastardly invasion sponsored by the Jews, a man losing his race to other races because of this invasion.

Of course, you and I regard both the facts and the values (race matters) as nonsense. But the same fundamental reasoning that would justify shooting Republicans is used to kill Jews.
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