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Old 8th November 2018, 08:54 AM   #41
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Counted spent casings or empty magazines on floor minus whatever was still in gun?
It was a witness who heard the gunshots which gave me the number of at least 18. Nobody has yet mentioned counting casings.
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Old 8th November 2018, 08:55 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Counted spent casings or empty magazines on floor minus whatever was still in gun?
I doubt the crime scene has been fully examined yet, plus the police may have fired shots.
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Old 8th November 2018, 08:59 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I doubt the crime scene has been fully examined yet, plus the police may have fired shots.
Just speculating on how a preliminary count could be quickly established. One weapon, one empty ten round mag on floor and a ten round mag in the gun with one round still in it and one chambered would presumably be 18 rounds shot.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:01 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty View Post
TBH - my initial thought when I heard the news of the shooting was that it was a white supremacist upset with the election. When I heard a white male with tattoos, that seemed to bolster my thoughts. But it turns out he was a marine. So that would explain the presence of tattoos (yes, anyone can have tattoos, but for it to have been noted in the report as being heavily tattooed, I expect more than just your normal tattoo).

Not that he can't have been a marine and white supremacists. But, now I'm leaning more towards a marine with PTSD issues.
A country-western bar would be an odd choice for a white supremacist.

There are a few western-ish places I've known that were popular with some hispanic people, but the clientele of your average country-western bar is going to trend pretty white, pretty conservative as well. (There are photos already from the scene, one shows a young man comforting a friend - the man is wearing a "Reagan-Bush" t-shirt.)
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:06 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by CNN
Authorities found the gunman dead inside an office adjacent to the bar's entryway, Ventura County Sheriff Geoff Dean said. "We believe he shot himself."

The gunman used a Glock 21 .45-caliber handgun designed to hold 10 rounds plus one in the chamber, but the gun had an extended magazine, the sheriff said. Investigators didn't immediately know how many rounds the magazine could hold, he said...

Investigators believe Long arrived Wednesday night at the bar in a car, shot a security guard who was standing outside and then stepped inside. It appears that Long then shot other security workers and employees inside and opened fire further inside the club, Dean said.

Law enforcement had several previous contacts with Long, including in April, when officers were called to a disturbance at his home, the sheriff said.

"He was somewhat irate, acting a little irrationally," Dean said. Mental health specialists talked to him and didn't feel he qualified to be detained under the state's "5150" mental health detention law, Dean said.

Long also had been a victim of battery at a different Thousand Oaks bar in January 2015, the sheriff said...

Originally Posted by CNN
At least 10 to 15 others were injured, Ventura County Sheriff Geoff Dean said.
That's even more bullets. He must have reloaded magazines numerous times.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/08/us/th...ing/index.html
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:12 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
That's even more bullets. He must have reloaded magazines numerous times.
People get injured by things that aren't bullets in every mass shooting.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:14 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
People get injured by things that aren't bullets in every mass shooting.
Right but it seems likely that at least some were shot and survived.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:23 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Likely a Glock 21, which is California legal. Probably used illegal standard capacity magazines.
Last I heard it was Glock .45 caliber handgun. Cue the call for banning assault rifles.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:24 AM   #49
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Well, they did mention he had an extended magazine. The standard Glock 21 mag holds 13 rounds, and extended ones generally double that to 26. Depending on what, exactly, he had he may not have had to change mags at all.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:31 AM   #50
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With training, the time to swap magazines becomes negligible.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:38 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
With training, the time to swap magazines becomes negligible.
This is true as well. It's literally seconds even when not in a hurry: Press mag release, push in new mag, switch slide catch, done.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:40 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
With training, the time to swap magazines becomes negligible.
Assuming you don't care about the magazine you are dropping a few hours on the range and most people can get it down to only a few seconds from the gun running dry to pulling a fresh mag from a belt or holster pocket, loading it, and making the gun ready to fire again.

Just to be able to pretty touch a pistol in the military you have to be able to pull your pistol from the holster, fire two shots, reload, make ready, and fire two more shots in 10 seconds and at least have those shots hit something vaguely near the target.

And the M9 is clunky chunk of metal compared to Glocks. I hate the M9 cause I've got smaller hands.
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:57 AM   #53
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Remember: There is no tragedy too great to prevent CT morons from making up s*** about it:

Was the Borderline Bar Shooter Identified as a Middle Eastern Man Named Abu Al-Hom Kreuzi?

It gets spread on twitter too, of course:

https://twitter.com/BigDog45ACP/stat...42338525728768

I am really sick to death of Conspiracy Theory people.
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Old 8th November 2018, 11:11 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
That's even more bullets. He must have reloaded magazines numerous times.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/08/us/th...ing/index.html
A 45 will go clean through soft flesh too, so one bullit could, conceivably, injure or kill more than one person.
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Old 8th November 2018, 11:25 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Last I heard it was Glock .45 caliber handgun. Cue the call for banning assault rifles.
Assault handguns.
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Old 8th November 2018, 11:28 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
A 45 will go clean through soft flesh too, so one bullit could, conceivably, injure or kill more than one person.
Standard military FMJ/hardball will do that, but anything soft nosed or hollow point probably won't.

Being a Marine, he might have used FMJ.
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Old 8th November 2018, 11:32 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Standard military FMJ/hardball will do that, but anything soft nosed or hollow point probably won't.

Being a Marine, he might have used FMJ.
This was my thought as well. Part of the reason a .45 does so much damage is it's a relatively slow-moving round with a wide diameter; it tends to dump all it's energy into the first thing hit. Doesn't penetrate well, but does tend to mess up whatever it impacts first.
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Old 8th November 2018, 12:10 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
That's probably why more aren't dead.
Sadly that doesn't seem to be the case. Gunman was reportedly found in a side room close to the entrance, apparently with a single self-inflicted GSW. I anticipate the reason there's not more dead is because the gunman came to the end of his ammunition.
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Old 8th November 2018, 01:02 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Sadly that doesn't seem to be the case. Gunman was reportedly found in a side room close to the entrance, apparently with a single self-inflicted GSW. I anticipate the reason there's not more dead is because the gunman came to the end of his ammunition.
Why would he not carry a couple more mags? I can fit a lot of G21 mags just in the pockets of my blue jeans.

There were apparently 6 off duty cops in the bar.

What they did we don't know yet.

They should not have been carrying while drinking in a bar, though.
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Old 8th November 2018, 01:35 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
They should not have been carrying while drinking in a bar, though.
What next? Gun-owners shouldn't be allowed to drink at home?
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Old 8th November 2018, 01:40 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
What next? Gun-owners shouldn't be allowed to drink at home?
You would think a bar is where you'd likely be attacked and need a gun to protect yourself. Maybe pool sticks will get replaced with pool noodles and glass beer bottles with sippy cups, too.
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Old 8th November 2018, 01:43 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
What next? Gun-owners shouldn't be allowed to drink at home?
I would never have one of my guns out of the gun safe if I was drinking at home, or if I had guest over who were/had been drinking. Concept ain't that hard.
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Old 8th November 2018, 01:45 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You would think a bar is where you'd likely be attacked and need a gun to protect yourself. Maybe pool sticks will get replaced with pool noodles and glass beer bottles with sippy cups, too.
Duuuuuude.

I could so go for a sippy cup full of Bicardi.
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Old 8th November 2018, 01:57 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You would think a bar is where you'd likely be attacked and need a gun to protect yourself. Maybe pool sticks will get replaced with pool noodles and glass beer bottles with sippy cups, too.
Pool played with noodles should be an Olympic sport.
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Old 8th November 2018, 02:26 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You would think a bar is where you'd likely be attacked and need a gun to protect yourself.
The reason you're likely to be attacked in a bar is because people in bars get drunk, or at least intoxicated enough to have compromised judgment. People in bars with compromised judgment AND a firearm will of course proceed to attack with their firearm, turning what would otherwise be a completely survivable fistfight incident into a mass shooting with fatalities instead.

I realize that many people defending guns in bars will insist that a drunken lout with a gun would easily be subdued or killed by other, not-drunken louts (or drunken not-louts), i.e., good guys with guns, before he has a chance to wound or kill anyone, because they live in a TV-Rambo fantasyland; but that is not actually a realistic scenario.
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Old 8th November 2018, 02:39 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The reason you're likely to be attacked in a bar is because people in bars get drunk, or at least intoxicated enough to have compromised judgment. People in bars with compromised judgment AND a firearm will of course proceed to attack with their firearm, turning what would otherwise be a completely survivable fistfight incident into a mass shooting with fatalities instead.

I realize that many people defending guns in bars will insist that a drunken lout with a gun would easily be subdued or killed by other, not-drunken louts (or drunken not-louts), i.e., good guys with guns, before he has a chance to wound or kill anyone, because they live in a TV-Rambo fantasyland; but that is not actually a realistic scenario.
Exactly. That's why I need my gun to protect myself and others from the drunken louts who carry illegally.
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Old 8th November 2018, 03:57 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Exactly. That's why I need my gun to protect myself and others from the drunken louts who carry illegally.
What about the drunken louts who carry legally?
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Old 8th November 2018, 04:00 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
What about the drunken louts who carry legally?
They're law-abiding. No problems there.
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Old 8th November 2018, 04:03 PM   #69
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Apparently Long had mental issues that were known to law enforcement.
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Old 8th November 2018, 04:52 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Assault handguns.
Don't laugh. There are ways of turning a automatic pistol into a de facto sub machine gun. We know the shooter had a illegal extended magazine, which is one of basics for turning a automatic pistol into a SMG.
BTW when referring to handguns, the term automatic is what is called "Semi Automatic" in long guns....don't ask me why.....
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Old 8th November 2018, 04:53 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Problem is you can't arrest somebody for having Mental Issues.
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Old 8th November 2018, 05:07 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
They're law-abiding. No problems there.
Taking the "deliberately obtuse" tack I see; carry on, then.
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Old 8th November 2018, 05:13 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You would think a bar is where you'd likely be attacked and need a gun to protect yourself. Maybe pool sticks will get replaced with pool noodles and glass beer bottles with sippy cups, too.
Well I have certainly been in dive bars that serve drinks in plastics for exactly that reason.
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Old 8th November 2018, 05:16 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem is you can't arrest somebody for having Mental Issues.
And you think that's a problem?
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Old 8th November 2018, 06:23 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem is you can't arrest somebody for having Mental Issues.
No, but you can disarm them.
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Old 8th November 2018, 06:34 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
And you think that's a problem?
Nope, just anticipating some "why didn't the cops stop him before the shooitngs if they knew he had mental problems" posts.
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Old 8th November 2018, 06:39 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Many gun friendly states don't allow carrying of guns into bars and nightclubs for the obvious reasons of alcohol and firearms not mixing well. .
Which goes back to the ordances aganst wearing guns that Dodge City, Abilene, and the other cow towns had during the era of the long Cattle Drives from Texas to the railheads in Kansas.
They knew the cowboys would get drunk and get into fights letting off steam after the long drive, and taking away their guns would prevent a lot of shootings.
Hollywood to the contrary, there was not that much Gunplay in the Cowtowns. A lot of rowdy behavior and a lot of fistfights, but not that many shootings thanks to the ordances.
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Old 8th November 2018, 07:09 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem is you can't arrest somebody for having Mental Issues.
Under some circumstances you can: a danger to yourself or others.
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Old 8th November 2018, 07:24 PM   #79
a_unique_person
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If only he had been an illegal immigrant. He could have been arrested and deported before this happened.
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For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
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Old 8th November 2018, 08:21 PM   #80
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Taking the "deliberately obtuse" tack I see; carry on, then.
Just as sober as the post you lectured me about
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