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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 10th September 2016, 07:39 AM   #1241
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
You boast about your big knowledge of Zionism and then prove that you have no idea of it.
You only want to know the version as told by Ilan Pappé. I choose to incorporate other information as well. That does give me a very different perspective from you.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Yes, a small amount of Jews always lived in Palestine without excessive problems. (Lesser than Armenians, for example).
Here you make it sound as though the problem were the number of Jews rather than their origin. Is that your intent? If so, would a population explosion among the native Jews have cause the same problems?

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
The problems begin in the twentieth century with the massive arrival of settlers and with the expansion of the Zionist program of a Home for the Jews.
And the xenophobia that met them.

If you read the Peel Commission report, it also outlines the economic development brought by the Jewish immigrants, stating that it improved the standard of living of the Arab populations many times over. So much so that in recommending separation, it also recommended the Jewish state contribute tax monies to the Arab state to compensate for it’s loss of revenue.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
This program included the expulsion of the Palestinians from the beginning.
I call bullcrap. Show me your evidence.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
The Zionist violence didn't begin with the proclamation of the State of Israel, as you said. It did come from long before. Firstly as a threat; after as the effective expulsion of the Palestinian peasants from the land the Zionist have buy;
Here’s another David Ben-Gurion quote that won’t be found on Palestine remembered dot com:

”Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs (fellahin, Arabic for peasant)or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.”

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
finally in the formation of paramilitary militias that "returned" the attacks of the Palestinians. This militias were very active in the riots of 1929 and 1938…
Yeah, god damn them for anticipating a need and being prepared for it. Don’t they know that good Jews should just wait around for the non-Jews to decide to slaughter them or not? Oh I forgot, you read an essay Gandhi wrote.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
…and show they are well prepared to the final solution: the ethnic cleansing.
Again with the Nazi terminology. Were they building death camps? Is this really appropriate?

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
This is the true history of the Zionist violence, not the childish story that you have told us.
My version includes a lot of information yours doesn’t. You don’t refute any of the information, you just say I’m wrong for considering it.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
And now you say that you have read "many times" the web that you first refused to read. You are really funny, my friend!
You’re being silly again. You said I refused to read it. I corrected you by telling you I’ve read it many times.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Well. If you have finally read it you see that Ben Gurion had two languages: one for the external world and other for the Zionists. Sheer cynism.
That’s the kind of thing you have to make-up to believe the narrative you want in the face of evidence that’s not cherry-picked.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I am amazed that you don't understand still that I am contrary to the partition and more to the Peel commission and other intents to steal the land of Palestine.
The Peel Commission recommended land swaps and population exchange. How come you see that and only see “steal the land of Palestine”? Trading is not stealing, and if you think it is, it’s stealing from both sides. Try to be rational.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
But I remember you that the Zionist leadership refused in the Peel commission the paritary solution offered by Palestinians. I add that the partition plan included the presence of 600.000 Palestinians into the borders of the future State of Israel and the inviolability of their properties. The Israelis don't respect even this.
Actually, they were mixed about it but overall were going to accept it. It’s a moot point though because the Peel Commission recommendations were never enacted.

Last edited by Mycroft; 10th September 2016 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 10th September 2016, 07:41 AM   #1242
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I asked you:
"Do you think that a State based on ethnic cleansig, genocide and pillagings can be admissible?"
If your answer is "yes" we have not anything to discuss. I am not used to speak with moral trolls.
How can I answer your question when it's so badly formed as to be unintelligible? I can't. If I don't know what you're asking about admissibility to, then your question is meaningless. "Admissible" by itself doesn't make any sense. If you expect an answer, then pose your question in a comprehensible manner.
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Old 10th September 2016, 07:51 AM   #1243
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It doesn't matter why they did it, they did it. And if they did it once for PR, why would you think they couldn't do it again for PR? You have no actual counter-argument, just outrage and hatred.
It's always about promoting hatred of Israel. It's never about finding solutions or improving anyone's lives.

Right now Israeli and Palestinian leaders are being invited to Moscow for a Russia sponsored peace summit. It's not very likely to produce results, but if it did, that would do more to address Palestinian grievances than all of this Israel hatred ever did. Right now the best action for someone who does want peace would be to apply political pressure to Netanyahu and Mahmoud Abbas to compromise and come to a deal.

For those that want a one-state solution, promoting hatred of Israel does not promote a one-state solution. To make that work, you would need to prepare these populations to let go of past grievances and hatred in order to enable these peoples to live together as one people. Whipping up hatred then saying everyone must join together as a single people is a recipe for Rwanda style violence.
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Old 10th September 2016, 08:32 AM   #1244
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
I tripped over this article from a random LRB emailing, and it got me scratching my head. The author seems to believe that internal divisions in Israel are both an obstacle to the Palestinian hopes for a two state solution (for such Palestinians who so hope) and an obstacle to a healthy Israeli future.. The title of this blog article is: Israel’s Impending Civil War
The author is: Uri Avnery 6 September 2016. He says he once served in the Knesset.


Is this a way out there position, or something commonly discussed in Israel?

How this internal issue plays out, if it's for real, seems to me to have an impact on the Israeli-Palestine ongoing issue.

LRB = London Review of Books
Uri Avnery is a radical leftist. He founded the Gush Shalom movement and the Meri political party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meri_(political_party)

From what I can tell, "way out there positions" are commonly discussed in Israel.

The Civil War talk is hyperbole. Politically, Israel is divided just like all democracies are. The ongoing conflict adds an intensity to the divide, but at it's core it's not so different from the left/right divide in the US.

Avnery represents the far left in Israeli politics. The far left that critics say want peace at any cost. The far left in Israel is stronger than the far right, which represents the religious kooks and the hard-right settlers.

Most of the population falls between these extremes. For the past 15 years or so, since the failure of the Camp David talks in 2001, the Israeli center has been disillusioned with the peace process and has been supporting the right, which is how Likud and its coalition has stayed in power for so long.

Even so, I'm told that Likud control is tenuous. It wouldn't take a very large change to swing control to the left.

Which makes it a good opportunity for Abbas to influence Israeli politics by being reconciliatory and showing a willingness to compromise. It would have a strong potential to shift the power in Israel to elect a government willing to make peace.

Let's hope something happens.
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Old 10th September 2016, 09:06 AM   #1245
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Whipping up hatred then saying everyone must join together as a single people is a recipe for Rwanda style violence.
For some people, that's not a bug, that's a feature.
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Old 10th September 2016, 09:48 AM   #1246
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
For some people, that's not a bug, that's a feature.
More than some, I'm afraid.

Further, once the violence starts it's likely to turn very swiftly in favor of the Israelis, but that's fine with the "Anti-Zionists" as long as some Jews get killed too.

No amount of Palestinian suffering is too great as long as it also causes suffering/inconvenience for Israeli Jews too. Anti-Zionists are flat out not interested in the actual well being of Palestinian people.
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Old 10th September 2016, 11:46 AM   #1247
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
More than some, I'm afraid.

Further, once the violence starts it's likely to turn very swiftly in favor of the Israelis, but that's fine with the "Anti-Zionists" as long as some Jews get killed too.

No amount of Palestinian suffering is too great as long as it also causes suffering/inconvenience for Israeli Jews too. Anti-Zionists are flat out not interested in the actual well being of Palestinian people.
You are starting to feel sorry for yourself again, aren't you? And such is the sentiment that leads to thought like this: "Those mean ole' Pals....is it no wonder that Israel has to go all HAM on them and take their land away?"

Deep down, a lot of people in the world like Israel, and you should get used to that fact. And instead of berating those people (who have very sound reasons to not like Israel), which you just tried to do, you should take a close and honest look at Israel and determine if they are really the nation they claim to be.

There's a lot of irrational hatred out there for Jews - especially by the likes of the Evangelical Christians - which the Israelis have no problem courting. Likewise, Israel has tacitly aligned itself with Saudi Arabia on the matter of ISIS as of late - and this has the potential to blowback into their faces in the future (especially amongst the more conservative elements of the West). And...when it comes to stabbing allies in the back, Israel never seems to miss an opportunity: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...ands-war-reve/

Point is this: the anti-zionists Jews, gentiles, atheists, etc. of the West are not the enemies of Israel as you should make them out to be. In fact, I don't know of a single person - not one - who believes Israel should be wiped out or disbanded or whatever. And, I certainly don't know anyone who hates Jews. And if you got out more, you'd see that, too - and realize that today's "Anti-Zionists" will be the friends of Israel long after they are abandoned by the Christian Evangelicals and Western Warhawks (which Israel is doing a fine job of alienating by their actions).

You see, Anti-Zionists are smart enough - nuanced enough - to understand that not all Israelis are Land Thieves and War Hawks. So their potential to turn full-blown antisemite is non-existent - unlike the Warhawks and Evangelicals who are mired in Black-White, "all-or nothing" thinking.

But...there is one danger the Anti-Zionists that constantly slandering the Anti-Zionists presents, and Israel had really better contemplate this: they (the Anti-Zionists) may shut up and say nothing if/when the world goes crazy. Right now, being an Anti-Zionist in some parts of society is very difficult - sometimes painful as a matter of fact. Day after day, year after year, the empathy of these Anti-Zionists can get worn down such that when it comes time to speak for the Jews in Israel...maybe they won't (or so I figure).

So when you slander the Anti-Zionists like you do, then you may be sealing Israels fate - for the Anti-Zionists of today will be the last ones to stand with Israel when she is in trouble.
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Old 10th September 2016, 02:26 PM   #1248
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Wow. Just…wow.

I personally should avoid offending those very nuanced anti-Zionists who constantly compare Israel to Nazi Germany or apartheid, who call Gaza an “open air concentration camp”, propagate conspiracy theories about Israel starving the people of Gaza, who toss about terms like “genocide”, “ethnic-cleansing” or “collective punishment”, who can’t seem to think of anything Palestinians could do to promote peace and who don’t think they should anyway, who equate the murder of a thirteen-year-old girl to the actions of a rape victim fighting their rapist (looking at you, Caveman), who subscribe to this insanely unbalanced view of history … because I might hurt their feelings and lose their support for Israel sometime in the future.

No Jules. That is quite literally the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard regarding the Israeli/Arab conflict, and that’s including all the conspiratard you-tube videos about Talmudic Zionist conspiracy theories.
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Old 10th September 2016, 03:37 PM   #1249
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
The same that native Arabs and settlers in Algeria or Tunisia.

Please: don't invent the things, dear "expert": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popula...ip_settlements
All the settelments in Gaza were subsequent to 1970.
For starters, how long do you think a "generation" is? 1970 was 46 years ago.

Also, the reason Gaza had no Jewish population prior to 1970 is because they were ethnically cleansed by Egypt in 1948. This, of course, was a violation of their rights under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, specifically articles 2, 3, 6, 7, 9, 15, 17, 18 and 30.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Kfar_Darom

http://www.un.org/en/universal-decla...hts/index.html

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Compulsory transfer population = ethnic cleansing.
Damn straight!
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Old 10th September 2016, 05:03 PM   #1250
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Wow. Just…wow.

I personally should avoid offending those very nuanced anti-Zionists who constantly compare Israel to Nazi Germany or apartheid, who call Gaza an “open air concentration camp”, propagate conspiracy theories about Israel starving the people of Gaza, who toss about terms like “genocide”, “ethnic-cleansing” or “collective punishment”, who can’t seem to think of anything Palestinians could do to promote peace and who don’t think they should anyway, who equate the murder of a thirteen-year-old girl to the actions of a rape victim fighting their rapist (looking at you, Caveman), who subscribe to this insanely unbalanced view of history … because I might hurt their feelings and lose their support for Israel sometime in the future.

No Jules. That is quite literally the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard regarding the Israeli/Arab conflict, and that’s including all the conspiratard you-tube videos about Talmudic Zionist conspiracy theories.
Dude, here's some anecdotal experience. There's been many times in my life when my back has been against the wall and in not one of those times has a conservative rushed in to help. Not ever. Conservatives just don't have the stomach to mix it up unless they are beating a midget.

And every time someone has shown up to help - and put their well-being at risk - it's been a Liberal (Of all types...Catholic, Methodist, Jewish, and Atheist).

Choose your friends carefully.
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Old 10th September 2016, 05:06 PM   #1251
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
For starters, how long do you think a "generation" is? 1970 was 46 years ago.

Also, the reason Gaza had no Jewish population prior to 1970 is because they were ethnically cleansed by Egypt in 1948. This, of course, was a violation of their rights under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, specifically articles 2, 3, 6, 7, 9, 15, 17, 18 and 30.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Kfar_Darom

http://www.un.org/en/universal-decla...hts/index.html



Damn straight!

Wow...30 People. Such a human tragedy on a grand scale.
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Old 10th September 2016, 05:43 PM   #1252
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Dude, here's some anecdotal experience. There's been many times in my life when my back has been against the wall and in not one of those times has a conservative rushed in to help. Not ever. Conservatives just don't have the stomach to mix it up unless they are beating a midget.

And every time someone has shown up to help - and put their well-being at risk - it's been a Liberal (Of all types...Catholic, Methodist, Jewish, and Atheist).

Choose your friends carefully.
I'm not a conservative, and you're no liberal.
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Old 10th September 2016, 06:24 PM   #1253
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Dude, here's some anecdotal experience.
Translation: everything after this can be safely ignored.

Quote:
There's been many times in my life when my back has been against the wall and in not one of those times has a conservative rushed in to help.
Why would they? You've made your contempt for conservatives quite plain. People rarely help those who despise them. Which is why your suggestion that you might come to Israel's aid in some hypothetical future is so laughable. No matter how much you might like to imagine you would, you won't.

Quote:
Choose your friends carefully.
You aren't making a good case for choosing you.
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Old 11th September 2016, 01:17 AM   #1254
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
A real question is... if owners have other plans for the land that they own, what possible justification can you cite to support your contention that they should have let the previous renters or freeloaders stay and use the land indefinitely anyways, frequently directly in conflict with the owner's plans(…) That doesn't mean that large-scale ethnic cleansing was specifically the plan(…)
“Freeloaders”? Squatters in their own land? We are not speaking of a matter of private property but the occupation of a whole land.
Please, read this and then we talk about it: http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story694.html
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Old 11th September 2016, 01:22 AM   #1255
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
You only want to know the version as told by Ilan Pappé. I choose to incorporate other information as well. That does give me a very different perspective from you.
False; you continue inventing things: I have included a bibliography with five different sources and I have put in my comments quotations of Benny Morris, Mahtama Gandhi and others. I have more bibliography. It is in Spanish but I can translate some excerpts for you. During those last days I have search for English texts and I have suggested some of them. The web that you have refused to read have quotations from David Ben-Gurion, Moshe Sharett, Yosef Weitz, Menachem Ussishkin, Moshe Dayan, Arthur Ruppin, Shmuel Zuchovitzky and others.
Some years ago I read many articles from the Jewish Virtual Library that is your most likely source. It is a pamphlet but very interesting if you want to know about the current Zionism.
At this moment I am reading "A Land without a People for a People without a Land": Civilizing Mission and American Support for Zionism, 1880s-1929, by Robert L. MacDonald, a very interesting study of the Zionism in USA. You know it, of course, because you are an "expert" Zionist.

Don’t say that my unique source is Pappé. Don't make mi laugh, please.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Here you make it sound as though the problem were the number of Jews rather than their origin. Is that your intent? If so, would a population explosion among the native Jews have cause the same problems?
You have understand nothing.


Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
If you read the Peel Commission report, it also outlines the economic development brought by the Jewish immigrants, stating that it improved the standard of living of the Arab populations many times over. So much so that in recommending separation, it also recommended the Jewish state contribute tax monies to the Arab state to compensate for it’s loss of revenue.
The Peel Comission said many absurdities. It propposed a plan of partition that included the forcible displacement of 260.000 Palestinians and a smaller amount of Jews (several thousand if I remember well). Therefore, it was refused by the Palestinians and the British Government.
The improvement of the life conditions of the colonized people is a recurrent argument in all the colonialist systems. Nothing new.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I call bullcrap. Show me your evidence.
Again?!


Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Here’s another David Ben-Gurion quote that won’t be found on Palestine remembered dot com:

”Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs (fellahin, Arabic for peasant)or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.”
Even in Wikipedia you will find some references to Ben Gurion’s double language. Benny Morris, prominent Zionist historian, said of him that his public utterances are not reliable because he looked after his public image. He notes obvious lies as "Israel has never expelled a single Arab". (Quoted from Norman G. Finkelstein: Imagen y realidad del conflicto palestino-israelí, p. 120; Finkelstein 1995:53 in the English original edition). If you had read the web that I recommended, you would have found a lot of Ben Gurion's (and other Zionist leaders) quotations that preached the ethnic cleansing before (long before sometimes), during and after the Nakba. And they are not extracted from Pappé.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Uri Avnery is a radical leftist. He founded the Gush Shalom movement and the Meri political party.

Avnery represents the far left in Israeli politics. The far left that critics say want peace at any cost. The far left in Israel is stronger than the far right, which represents the religious kooks and the hard-right settlers.
False again: Avnery doesn’t want peace “at any cost”.
False again: Avnery and the “left” in Israel had no influence of the Governments of Peres, Barak, Sharon, Netanyahu… The extreme right is the actual power in Israel for a long time and the settlers in the West Bank are its spearhead.

Last edited by David Mo; 11th September 2016 at 02:44 AM.
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Old 11th September 2016, 02:26 AM   #1256
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Translation: everything after this can be safely ignored.



Why would they? You've made your contempt for conservatives quite plain. People rarely help those who despise them. Which is why your suggestion that you might come to Israel's aid in some hypothetical future is so laughable. No matter how much you might like to imagine you would, you won't.



You aren't making a good case for choosing you.
Well, guess who Israel's best friends are? The Christian Conservatives: the same people who also think the Israelis are destined to burn in hell forever (unless they've accepted Christ as their saviour). however sooner or later the Christian Conservatives are going to realize that Jebuses Second Coming is not imminent (the Second Coming hysteria histroically happens in cycles) and then watch material support for Israel evaporate.

Therefore, your mission as a Zionist - should you choose to accept it - is to further the cause of Zionist Israel by recruiting Jews for Jesus and convincing the Evangelicals (whose numbers are thinning out) that mass Jewish acceptance of Christ is imminent. this tape will self destruct in 5 seconds. 5...4...3...2...whatever.
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Old 11th September 2016, 02:27 AM   #1257
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
For starters, how long do you think a "generation" is? 1970 was 46 years ago.

Also, the reason Gaza had no Jewish population prior to 1970 is because they were ethnically cleansed by Egypt in 1948. This, of course, was a violation of their rights under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, specifically articles 2, 3, 6, 7, 9, 15, 17, 18 and 30.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Kfar_Darom

http://www.un.org/en/universal-decla...hts/index.html



Damn straight!
Therefore I suppose that you recognize the right of the return of all the Palestinian and the Israeli refugees. It is my point.
I am glad you recognize the authority of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights but your quotation is made willy-nilly. It don't matter. Maybe it is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

Last edited by David Mo; 11th September 2016 at 02:37 AM.
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Old 11th September 2016, 05:53 AM   #1258
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Well, guess who Israel's best friends are? The Christian Conservatives: the same people who also think the Israelis are destined to burn in hell forever (unless they've accepted Christ as their saviour). however sooner or later the Christian Conservatives are going to realize that Jebuses Second Coming is not imminent (the Second Coming hysteria histroically happens in cycles) and then watch material support for Israel evaporate.
Your understanding of conservative Christians is as much a caricature as your understanding of Jews and Israel.
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Old 11th September 2016, 06:48 AM   #1259
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Therefore I suppose that you recognize the right of the return of all the Palestinian and the Israeli refugees. It is my point.
I am glad you recognize the authority of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights but your quotation is made willy-nilly. It don't matter. Maybe it is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
I think the "right of return" should be discussed among the leaders of Israel and the Palestinians, as they have been, and that they should work it out as part of their overall peace agreement.

I also think that if you revere the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, as you should, you should also reconsider some of your previous statements regarding the political rights of Jewish immigrants to the British Mandate territory, especially in light of articles 1, 2, 3, 13, 14, 15, 17, 21, and 30.
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Old 11th September 2016, 07:01 AM   #1260
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Well, guess who Israel's best friends are? The Christian Conservatives: the same people who also think the Israelis are destined to burn in hell forever (unless they've accepted Christ as their saviour). however sooner or later the Christian Conservatives are going to realize that Jebuses Second Coming is not imminent (the Second Coming hysteria histroically happens in cycles) and then watch material support for Israel evaporate.

Therefore, your mission as a Zionist - should you choose to accept it - is to further the cause of Zionist Israel by recruiting Jews for Jesus and convincing the Evangelicals (whose numbers are thinning out) that mass Jewish acceptance of Christ is imminent. this tape will self destruct in 5 seconds. 5...4...3...2...whatever.
You can't make your argument using logic and reason, so this is you trying to make the same argument using threats.

It's a bizarre threat too. You're threatening that in some future when Israel might be overwhelmed by the hatred and violence that you and other anti-Zionists are working hard to inflame, that Israel won't have the support of the same people who are working to inflame that hatred and anger as much as possible.

This is your response to my pointing out the obvious, that demonizing Israel, that inflaming rage and hatred against Israel is anti-peace. It is not in the best interests of the Palestinian people (or the Israelis) who desperately need peace and a resolution to the conflict.

I think a much better plan is to recognize your hate for what it is, and to respond accordingly.
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Old 11th September 2016, 07:11 AM   #1261
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
“Freeloaders”? Squatters in their own land? We are not speaking of a matter of private property but the occupation of a whole land.
Please, read this and then we talk about it: http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story694.html
But you were talking about a matter of private property. You are now conflating it with the Arab refugees from 1948. Those are two separate issues.

Remember Article 17 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
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Old 11th September 2016, 07:21 AM   #1262
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I think the "right of return" should be discussed among the leaders of Israel and the Palestinians, as they have been, and that they should work it out as part of their overall peace agreement.

I also think that if you revere the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, as you should, you should also reconsider some of your previous statements regarding the political rights of Jewish immigrants to the British Mandate territory, especially in light of articles 1, 2, 3, 13, 14, 15, 17, 21, and 30.
You cannot argue a right. You cannot discuss the right to a fair trial or the right to free expression. You can only discuss how to implement these rights. In the case of the responsability of ethnic cleansing in Palestine the responsible were Israel, Jordan and Egypt (in 1948). It is their duty to implement a satisfaction of this right in proportion to the extension of their crime and the profit otained with him. Israel never recognized this right in a factual manner.


I don't revere anything. I think the Humans Rights are a good starting point for a discussion if the parts agree. It seems that you agree. But please, you has to agree with yourself because you don't ever mention the same list.
Note that some of them are an explicit condemnation of the ethnic cleansing.
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Old 11th September 2016, 07:34 AM   #1263
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
But you were talking about a matter of private property. You are now conflating it with the Arab refugees from 1948. Those are two separate issues.

Remember Article 17 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
This article is the main indictment against the theft of Palestinians' properties and the law of Absent Owners. For example.

But it is you that now jump to the domain of the private property when the debate is mainly the occupation of Palestine and the foudations of the Israeli State.
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Old 11th September 2016, 09:36 AM   #1264
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
False; you continue inventing things: I have included a bibliography with five different sources and I have put in my comments quotations of Benny Morris, Mahtama Gandhi and others. I have more bibliography. It is in Spanish but I can translate some excerpts for you. During those last days I have search for English texts and I have suggested some of them.
My mistake. I meant to communicate that you only consider opinions similar to Ilan Pappé, not that he is literally your only source.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
The web that you have refused to read…
This will be the second time I’m correcting you on this. I have read through Palestine remembered dot com many times, as I have reviewed other anti-Israel sources. Please take this correction to heart. Just as I make an effort to understand what you’re actually saying and not to construct any straw-man arguments, I would like you to extend the same courtesy of at least trying to understand what I’m saying and not to misrepresent it.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
…have quotations from David Ben-Gurion, Moshe Sharett, Yosef Weitz, Menachem Ussishkin, Moshe Dayan, Arthur Ruppin, Shmuel Zuchovitzky and others.
Right. Cherry picked quotations as would be found on Palestine remembered dot com.

If there are stronger arguments to be found there than the ones we’ve already debunked, you should have led with them. You don’t just point to a website and say, “read that!” If we did it that way that’s all we would do is exchanged URL’s of biased sources.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
At this moment I am reading "A Land without a People for a People without a Land": Civilizing Mission and American Support for Zionism, 1880s-1929, by Robert L. MacDonald, a very interesting study of the Zionism in USA. You know it, of course, because you are an "expert" Zionist.
Lol! You’re telling me you’re reading a paper whose thesis is that the US is basically wrong to have a special relationship with Israel as evidence of the broad range of opinions you read. That’s pretty funny, if you understand the irony.

And no, I never heard of that paper before you brought it up. Why would I? I’m not familiar with every thesis related to the Israeli/Arab conflict, nobody is.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
You have understand nothing.
If so it’s puzzling why you decline to answer questions meant to clarify. When you said, ” Yes, a small amount of Jews always lived in Palestine without excessive problems.” it sounds as though it’s the number of Jews that cause a “problem” and not their origin. Is that what you meant? Or did you mean something else?

There is a language barrier here, I prefer to understand you correctly and not to make assumptions.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
The Peel Comission said many absurdities. It propposed a plan of partition that included the forcible displacement of 260.000 Palestinians and a smaller amount of Jews (several thousand if I remember well). Therefore, it was refused by the Palestinians and the British Government.
And having never been enacted, it’s relevance is small. Also, quoting Ben-Gurion discussing it without being aware of what was being discussed while implying the ideas discussed were Ben-Gurion’s ideas is dishonest at best.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
The improvement of the life conditions of the colonized people is a recurrent argument in all the colonialist systems. Nothing new.
Again, “colonialism” is your term, and the improvement in quality of life is relevant.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Again?!
Yes, again and every time you make a bullcrap statement like that.

Don’t think I’m not going to revisit your assertion that the Holocaust was used as an “excuse for killing and stealing.” It’s on the agenda. We’ll see if I have time for it later today.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Even in Wikipedia you will find some references to Ben Gurion’s double language...
There are many excuses to ignore the statements you don’t like, that don’t fit your narrative.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
False again: Avnery doesn’t want peace “at any cost”.
False again: Avnery and the “left” in Israel had no influence of the Governments of Peres, Barak, Sharon, Netanyahu… The extreme right is the actual power in Israel for a long time and the settlers in the West Bank are its spearhead.
It’s the portion you didn’t quote that resolves the differences between what you said and what I said.

The Israeli far left is stronger than the Israeli far right.

The Israeli right is in power right now because the Israeli center has become disillusioned with the peace process since the failure at Camp David back in 2001, and so the center supports the right.

It is my belief that the Israeli center would come to support the left if the Palestinian leadership would demonstrate a reconciliatory attitude and a willingness to compromise. For the last 15 years they have been unwilling to come to the negotiation table and seem to want to gain independence by any means except making peace with Israel.
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Old 11th September 2016, 09:57 AM   #1265
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
This article is the main indictment against the theft of Palestinians' properties and the law of Absent Owners. For example.
The rights outlined apply to everybody, not just Palestinians.

If someone buys property, they have the rights to that property. That means they have a right to put it to a different purpose, even if that means putting people out of work who were previously working that property. If you must blame someone, consider blaming the previous landlords who had a long-term relationship with the fellahin but sold the land from under them anyway.

Also, don't forget the incident's of this happening are exaggerated. The Zionists focused their purchases on empty land.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
But it is you that now jump to the domain of the private property when the debate is mainly the occupation of Palestine and the foudations of the Israeli State.
You were discussing private property rights, then you jumped to the property rights of those Arabs who were expelled. Those are two different topics and you are wrong to conflate them.

You want to cherry-pick rights but only as they apply to Palestinian-Arabs, but ignore the same rights when they apply to Jews.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
You cannot argue a right. You cannot discuss the right to a fair trial or the right to free expression. You can only discuss how to implement these rights.
Silly. How can you discuss the implementation of the right without discussing the right itself?

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
In the case of the responsability of ethnic cleansing in Palestine the responsible were Israel, Jordan and Egypt (in 1948). It is their duty to implement a satisfaction of this right in proportion to the extension of their crime and the profit otained with him. Israel never recognized this right in a factual manner.
Progress, I guess. At least now your acknowledging ethnic cleansing on the Arab side too. You should also note that "satisfaction of this right" was not resolved voluntarily by Jordan or Egypt, but only after Israel re-took the lands they were illegally occupying.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I don't revere anything. I think the Humans Rights are a good starting point for a discussion if the parts agree. It seems that you agree. But please, you has to agree with yourself because you don't ever mention the same list.
I think we're using the same list. If you disagree, show the differences between the two lists.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Note that some of them are an explicit condemnation of the ethnic cleansing.
Of course they are, but you need to look at all the rights not just the ones that support your argument. And even if we just focus on ethnic cleansing, also recognize the ethnic cleansing done by Arabic forces not just during the 1948 war, but the subsequent ethnic cleansing done by Arabic nations after the 1948 war. It's all relevant, you can't just ignore the information you want.

Last edited by Mycroft; 11th September 2016 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 11th September 2016, 11:30 AM   #1266
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http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Pol...minster-467433

Quote:
Deputy Knesset Speaker Hilik Bar (Zionist Union) presented his peace plan in the UK House of Commons to lawmakers from around the world at a conference of the International Association of Parliamentarians for Peace.

<snip>

Bar’s diplomatic outline calls for Israel to recognize a Palestinian state. Borders would be determined based on pre-1967 lines, with land swaps to account for settlement blocs, and the two sides would negotiate on Jerusalem, security arrangements, the refugee issue, etc.

The recognition and approval of “Palestine” joining UN institutions will be conditioned on it not undermining the need to negotiate, and the Palestinians recognizing Israel.

The plan also provides that, when there is a Palestinian state, Jews may securely live in it as residents or citizens, thus creating an option for Israelis not to be expelled from their homes, an issue that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu brought up in a controversial online video on Friday.
First, yay on a new proposal! It's really the same old proposal, but perhaps bringing it up will provide momentum for the Moscow talks that are proposed.

Second, on previous occasions the suggestion that Jewish people could also live in the proposed state of Palestine has been mocked, but I've never seen a rational argument made against it except that their safety could not be guaranteed from the Palestinian population raised on hate propaganda, which to me undermines the whole "Israelis are the racist ones" argument.

So...let's all cross our fingers and hope for resolution.
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Old 11th September 2016, 05:01 PM   #1267
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
“Freeloaders”? Squatters in their own land?
Define "their own land?" So far, you seem to be claiming that renting a piece of land means that one has or should have greater priority and property rights than owning the land does and that therefore, the owners of the land had no right to discontinue renting it to the renters and proceed to use it for other purposes. Purposes that, incidentally, raised the standards of life for the area in general, including for the Arabs.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
We are not speaking of a matter of private property but the occupation of a whole land.
Really? So when you said -

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
after as the effective expulsion of the Palestinian peasants from the land the Zionist have buy;
You're actually not talking about the land that the Zionists bought, which would be their private land, despite directly saying that you were? This takes us right back to the "It doesn't matter if the forces actually were colonial forces, they were colonial forces, because I want to make it fit my preferred narrative" level of argument. Unsurprisingly, I am utterly unimpressed.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Please, read this and then we talk about it: http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story694.html
Okay. So, are you admitting that you want to move the goalposts because you can't defend the actual claims that you made? That seems to be the only thing that you could be doing by trying to use the contents of that link, without even touching the part where we have plenty of reason to consider your linked site to have a very, very pointed bias and agenda, at the least, and so should not be considered to be completely trustworthy, especially taken alone.

Certainly, ethnic cleansing occurred in the area. However, buying land and developing it in ways that increased the the overall quality of life in the area is not ethnic cleansing, though, just like not continuing to rent land to the former owner's renters is not grounds to say that ethnic cleansing occurred. This really shouldn't be a hard thing to understand. Are you having so much of a problem with that because your claims are important parts of the notably biased and one-sided narrative that you seem to be trying to cling onto that's led you to utilize such remarkably bad arguments?

Later -

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
False again: Avnery doesn’t want peace “at any cost”.
Reread what you were responding to? Other than what Mycroft said later, if what was said was that "critics say" that Avnery wants peace at any cost, the claim that's being made is not that Avnery wants peace at any cost.
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Old 11th September 2016, 06:09 PM   #1268
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Netanyahu's controversial video.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


And the reaction from Mahmoud Abbas:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...853409,00.html

Quote:
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas addressed on Sunday night Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin's Netanyahu's online video that claimed that opposing the presence of Jews in the West Bank is support of ethnic cleansing. Abbas said, "The government of Israel is carrying out ethnic cleansing and deliberately killing—acts that have exposed it to international criticism all over the world."
My opinion is yay for Netenyahu! Even if you don't agree with him, he's taking the Israeli side to the public forum and it's long past time.

And to wash the bitter taste of politics from the mouth, something completely off topic, a beautiful performance by a young talent by the name of Melissa Venema that I happened to be watching.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


I think she's 15 in this video? I do hope she makes a career of this.
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Old 12th September 2016, 12:27 AM   #1269
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Lol! You’re telling me you’re reading a paper whose thesis is that the US is basically wrong to have a special relationship with Israel as evidence of the broad range of opinions you read.
MacDonald's study is not "a paper whose thesis is that the US is basically wrong". It is the dissertation for his PhD. Gary R. Hess, the Advissor, says of it:

“This dissertation focuses on how the Zionists presented their arguments for the Jewish colonization of Palestine to the West in pamphlets, books, speeches, petitions, interviews, and meetings with officials. In the early stages, Zionists and their supporters presented their colonial movement to the Western powers as an extension of the Western civilizing mission, adopting the idealistic rhetoric of benevolent imperialism and the Biblical justifications of earlier settler colonies such as the United States”.(p. iii)

I am sure that an "expert" on Zionism, as you are, will be interested to know these important documents. But it seems that you only look at the things that secure your fixed ideas.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
If so it’s puzzling why you decline to answer questions meant to clarify. When you said, ” Yes, a small amount of Jews always lived in Palestine without excessive problems.” it sounds as though it’s the number of Jews that cause a “problem” and not their origin. Is that what you meant? Or did you mean something else?
No. The main problem was the Zionism and its plans for Palestine.


Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
And having never been enacted, it’s relevance is small. Also, quoting Ben-Gurion discussing it without being aware of what was being discussed while implying the ideas discussed were Ben-Gurion’s ideas is dishonest at best.
Ben Gurion’s ideas about the compulsory transfer of Palestinians were Cartesians: claires et distinctes. Other thing is that you don’t wish to look at them because they disturb you. Again.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
There are many excuses to ignore the statements you don’t like, that don’t fit your narrative.
I am not ignoring it. I had explained with Morris’ words why Ben Gurion said one thing and the contrary: cynicism. Have you a better explanation of his double language?


Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
If someone buys property, they have the rights to that property. That means they have a right to put it to a different purpose, even if that means putting people out of work who were previously working that property. If you must blame someone, consider blaming the previous landlords who had a long-term relationship with the fellahin but sold the land from under them anyway.
Also, don't forget the incident's of this happening are exaggerated. The Zionists focused their purchases on empty land.
False again. The colonization process in Palestine followed three different phases. First the settlers bought the land to absent owners (usually Turkish) and expelled the peasants that traditionally occupied these lands. This mechanism created an urban sub proletariat that were the main contingent in the riots against the Jews in the thirties. Second: the military expulsion, destruction of the villages and subsequent appropriation of the lands and other Palestinian goods. This phase was completed with legal measures that impeded to recover their goods to the Palestinians, even those that lived inside the recent Israeli State. Third: the expropriation of public and private ownerships by reasons of “security”, many of them transferred to Israelis after. In this third period began the colonization of Cisjordania (West Bank), a process unanimously condemned out of Israel, USA and a few satellites.

What “empty land” are you speaking? (Article 17 of the UDHR: "1. Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others. 2. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property".) In 1947 the Jewish propierties were only 6,6% of Palestine =1.734.000 dunums, 1.734 Km2 aprox. (“Confisca e colonizzazione della terra in Palestina”, by Giorgio Gallo, Israele Palestina due popoli una terra, a cura di S. Saccardi, Editrice Tasca (2001)). Now you understand how the land of Palestine was transferred to the Israeli hands. I call it pillaging and robbery.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
You should also note that "satisfaction of this right" was not resolved voluntarily by Jordan or Egypt, but only after Israel re-took the lands they were illegally occupying.
Excuse me. I don’t know what “lands occupied” you are speaking about. We were speaking of Gaza and in 1920’ there were scarcely 100 Jews in Gaza. Other small settlements were subsequent to 1930 (later assigned to the army) and have not relation with the settlements established following 1967.

I am not intending to justify Egypt or Jordan. You are intending to justify the massive ethnic cleansig made by Israel at any cost.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Of course they are, but you need to look at all the rights not just the ones that support your argument. And even if we just focus on ethnic cleansing, also recognize the ethnic cleansing done by Arabic forces not just during the 1948 war, but the subsequent ethnic cleansing done by Arabic nations after the 1948 war. It's all relevant, you can't just ignore the information you want.
I have no problem to report any ethnic cleansing. It seems that you have not the same clear intentions.

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Old 13th September 2016, 07:49 PM   #1270
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
False again. The colonization process in Palestine followed three different phases. First the settlers bought the land to absent owners (usually Turkish) and expelled the peasants that traditionally occupied these lands.
This part was done legally, by the look of it, and is the part where you've received the most resistance to your attempts to portray it as illegal, colonial, or an invasion. The land was officially not the land of the renters in the first place, despite your claims and the fantasies of the renters to the contrary.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
This mechanism created an urban sub proletariat that were the main contingent in the riots against the Jews in the thirties.
An entirely unsurprising and understandable result, frankly. One can sympathize with their unhappiness quite easily, even if it had much to do with their own unpreparedness for anyone else to actually want the land for something other than low-efficiency farming.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Second: the military expulsion, destruction of the villages and subsequent appropriation of the lands and other Palestinian goods.
You're ignoring an important part that clashes a bit with the narrative that you've been trying to push by just jumping to this. Before this, the Zionists managed to secure official recognition of their state to be, via reasonable and legal means. No ethnic cleansing was required in the first place to make Israel a reality with a Jewish majority to start with. Certainly, that doesn't make the ethnic cleansing that did happen any better or more pleasant, but it does directly counter your previous claims about Israel being illegal because it required ethnic cleansing to exist.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
This phase was completed with legal measures that impeded to recover their goods to the Palestinians, even those that lived inside the recent Israeli State.
This part, at least, does stay within the bounds of things that it's quite reasonable to condemn Israel for doing. However, with that said, it actually is entirely reasonable for a government to restrict or ban groups from entry and refuse to grant citizenship to them on the basis of the group being against the existence of the country in the first place, being highly likely to break laws, or being otherwise likely to cause trouble. That those who became citizens of the country afterwards may have directly caused a fair portion of that reason for trouble-making is immaterial when it comes to that concern.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Third: the expropriation of public and private ownerships by reasons of “security”, many of them transferred to Israelis after. In this third period began the colonization of Cisjordania (West Bank), a process unanimously condemned out of Israel, USA and a few satellites.
For this part, it sounds like you want to conveniently ignore the part where "security" came into play because of the aggressive wars that were waged against Israel, and not because of Israeli expansionism. Yes, though, settling land that is not officially part of their country, but is under their jurisdiction is widely condemned for a variety of reasons. That still doesn't justify trying to misrepresent the events that actually happened or the status of the land in question, which wasn't really being held by the Arab countries particularly rightfully, either. Frankly, there's really, really no need to misrepresent things when it comes to finding reasons to condemn various actions taken by Israel. There's plenty of valid ones to go around, after all.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
What “empty land” are you speaking?
Given that the "empty land" comment was referring to much of the land that was specifically bought by the Zionists in what you're trying to pass off as stage 1 of colonization, that would be what it's talking about. There is a key word for you to recognize combined with the empty land comment, by the way. It's "purchases." The land confiscated from the Arabs when Israel was formed was not "purchased," and thus cannot be what's referred to there. Even if monetary compensation was accepted later on, it would still not actually count as purchased. If you want to dispute it with actually relevant statistics or arguments, by the way, go for it. As it was, it was asserted without specific supporting evidence, so you could even choose to dismiss it without specific supporting evidence, potentially, not that that would help your case much.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
(Article 17 of the UDHR: "1. Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others. 2. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property".)
So? The land being referred to legally changed hands and was not arbitrarily deprived from the previous owners. Later, such things did happen, yes. Conflating the potential legality of the events, like you've been doing, makes for a rather indefensible position.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
In 1947 the Jewish propierties were only 6,6% of Palestine =1.734.000 dunums, 1.734 Km2 aprox. (“Confisca e colonizzazione della terra in Palestina”, by Giorgio Gallo, Israele Palestina due popoli una terra, a cura di S. Saccardi, Editrice Tasca (2001)).
So what? That's largely irrelevant to any of the real concerns in play. It's certainly not relevant to the "empty land" claim that was made.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Now you understand how the land of Palestine was transferred to the Israeli hands.
Now? You say that like any of this is somehow news to just about any of the posters here. Unsurprisingly, though, it leaves out a lot of things of relevance that make the picture drastically less supportive of what you're trying to claim.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I call it pillaging and robbery.
And others hold a distinctly more nuanced position where fully legal transactions are not included in pillaging and robbery, as an example of a place where disagreement with that statement exists.
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Old 15th September 2016, 02:11 PM   #1271
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Disparity

The U.S. Just Agreed to Give Israel $38 Billion in Military Aid

Link to info

The disparity being that there are poor Americans living in sub standard conditions who could be helped by this money.

Inevitably the rich protect the rich and are more than able to deal effectively with any brutal backlash responses of the poor (paint the reactions with the terrorist brush for example) ... it seems that protecting their interests is a more desirable occupation than working to improve the lives of all in the spirit of equality and progressive thinking.

Sure, the poor also have to take some responsibility for their predicament and at the very least behave responsibly rather than simply bemoan their lot and cause strife as a way to vent their dissatisfaction with the disparity created by greed and lack of empathy displayed by the rich - but would doing so be enough to persuade the rich to think differently than they presently do?

In any case, this is a clear enough example of the general rich taking care of themselves...through the taxes paid, even by the poor who are disadvantaged by such deals.

Peace is simply not likely to come through these types of deals. Throwing money at problems does not find the necessary solutions because their is no serious effort made in changing the status quo and that has to date always been motivated by greed and the associated power games and even that America has also given about $5 billion in bilateral economic and non-lethal security assistance to the Palestinians this is still motivated by concerns for keeping staus quo whilst appearing to be a benefactor.
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Old 15th September 2016, 08:42 PM   #1272
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
The U.S. Just Agreed to Give Israel $38 Billion in Military Aid

Link to info
Quite unfortunate. Hardly unexpected, though. It's rather past time for Israel to stand on their own feet again with military funding, really.

Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
The disparity being that there are poor Americans living in sub standard conditions who could be helped by this money.
Overall, that's not much of an argument, really, given both the nature of the argument and that the 38 billion number is for over 10 years, while military spending for the US itself is apparently more than 150 times as much per year, which is more than the next 7 highest spending countries combined. Frankly, reducing that by a mere 1% would free up lots more funds than the foreign aid to Israel, and fairly certainly wouldn't cause all that much of a real impact on the military.

Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
Inevitably the rich protect the rich and are more than able to deal effectively with any brutal backlash responses of the poor (paint the reactions with the terrorist brush for example)
Right, right. You are aware, of course, that "terrorist" has a specific meaning, and that the "painting the reactions with the terrorist brush" in real life actually means showing that the said actions properly meet the definition?

Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
... it seems that protecting their interests is a more desirable occupation than working to improve the lives of all in the spirit of equality and progressive thinking.
Trying to protecting the interests of a country is an entirely reasonable thing for a government to do. If you don't like the action, better to show that it isn't actually in the interests of the country, rather than make vague complaints about rich people. If giving that money to Israel now would decrease by greater than the amount of money/resources that the country would likely end up spending with later direct involvement, that could make it a rather reasonable investment. As noted earlier, though, I'm not especially a fan of the US military aid to Israel, in fair part because of the mindset of far too many Americans that we should help Israel no matter what, because of religious reasons.

Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
Sure, the poor also have to take some responsibility for their predicament and at the very least behave responsibly
And when they consistently refuse to do so for generations?

Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
Peace is simply not likely to come through these types of deals.
Duh? They're there to address other concerns from the start, though the aid to Israel has fairly certainly contributed to a rather notably reduced death toll on both sides.

Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
Throwing money at problems does not find the necessary solutions because their is no serious effort made in changing the status quo and that has to date always been motivated by greed and the associated power games and even that America has also given about $5 billion in bilateral economic and non-lethal security assistance to the Palestinians
Depending on the source, the actual parts of the Palestinian people/refugees being put under consideration, and the actual time period in question, that number can grow very significantly. It will not equal the aid given to Israel, true, but it's hardly insignificant. As a general matter of fact and record, the Palestinians have received more foreign aid than nearly any group other than Israel. How much of that the Palestinian leaders manage to funnel into their personal accounts and those of their cronies is a different matter, though one that should likely be of concern.

Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
this is still motivated by concerns for keeping staus quo whilst appearing to be a benefactor.
Care to back that claim up? I've heard that claim made a number of times, but have yet to hear any real justification or see any real evidence for it.
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Old 17th September 2016, 01:11 PM   #1273
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Care to back that claim up? I've heard that claim made a number of times, but have yet to hear any real justification or see any real evidence for it.
In part, the observations you yourself have made in your post give some circumstantial evidence to this being the case.

However, I acknowledge that 'real evidence' might not be considered by you to being only the circumstantial type of evidence and that any such circumstantial evidence is no premise for 'real justification' to making such assertions as I and others do in relation to 'false benefactors'.
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Old 17th September 2016, 02:53 PM   #1274
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
In part, the observations you yourself have made in your post give some circumstantial evidence to this being the case.

However, I acknowledge that 'real evidence' might not be considered by you to being only the circumstantial type of evidence and that any such circumstantial evidence is no premise for 'real justification' to making such assertions as I and others do in relation to 'false benefactors'.
As it stands, the US, like many other countries, has a long history of giving charity to people in need. For that matter, the US has tended to stay at either the top of the list or very close to it. That, alone, is more than enough to put your interpretation of circumstantial evidence in serious doubt, for starters. That's before touching on things like how the US has been pushing Israel (and the Palestinians) towards the peace table and towards the creation of Palestine as an actual state for a long time. The US has even done various things like train and give non-lethal arms for a police force to be in the West Bank, in preparation for the people there to be able to transition far more smoothly when the time hopefully comes, despite a number of protests from Israel. Yes, the US has definitely given more aid to Israel overall. That does not mean that the US' aid to the Palestinians has been, in any way, just for the sake of Israel. Claiming such, quite frankly, is to ignore the US' official stance on the matter, its official actions, and the various unofficial actions of the people of the US, for starters. To throw you a bit of a bone, though, the relation of the Palestinians to Israel has kept them in the public eye, which has certainly increased aid to them, because how much do most people actually care about people in a terrible situation that they know nothing about?
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Old 18th September 2016, 12:12 AM   #1275
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
As it stands, the US, like many other countries, has a long history of giving charity to people in need. For that matter, the US has tended to stay at either the top of the list or very close to it. That, alone, is more than enough to put your interpretation of circumstantial evidence in serious doubt, for starters. That's before touching on things like how the US has been pushing Israel (and the Palestinians) towards the peace table and towards the creation of Palestine as an actual state for a long time. The US has even done various things like train and give non-lethal arms for a police force to be in the West Bank, in preparation for the people there to be able to transition far more smoothly when the time hopefully comes, despite a number of protests from Israel. Yes, the US has definitely given more aid to Israel overall. That does not mean that the US' aid to the Palestinians has been, in any way, just for the sake of Israel. Claiming such, quite frankly, is to ignore the US' official stance on the matter, its official actions, and the various unofficial actions of the people of the US, for starters. To throw you a bit of a bone, though, the relation of the Palestinians to Israel has kept them in the public eye, which has certainly increased aid to them, because how much do most people actually care about people in a terrible situation that they know nothing about?
Since 1948 the USA has played the role of a colonial metropoli. Big amounts of private and institutional economical aid, military assistance, the ritual blocking of the condemnation of the State of Israel in the UN, effective attacks against the enemies of Israel and some episodic vague references to the settlements and the Human Rights violations of the State of Israel without any concrete measurement against them.
"Giving charity"? Surely you are joking, Mr. Aridas!
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Old 18th September 2016, 01:59 AM   #1276
Aridas
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Since 1948 the USA has played the role of a colonial metropoli. Big amounts of private and institutional economical aid, military assistance, the ritual blocking of the condemnation of the State of Israel in the UN, effective attacks against the enemies of Israel and some episodic vague references to the settlements and the Human Rights violations of the State of Israel without any concrete measurement against them.
"Giving charity"? Surely you are joking, Mr. Aridas!
So... you've got nothing of any value, then, before even touching the accuracy or meaningfulness of your claims? Yes, Israel is officially an ally of the US and has been for a long time. Was this somehow in dispute? Other than that, you've offered nothing of value to support the claim that the US' aid for the Palestinians is solely for the sake of Israel, mostly for the sake of Israel, or even that that has any meaningful effect on the amount, rather than for the sake of the Palestinians. You are aware that it is entirely reasonable to try to support both sides in a dispute while trying to help them reach an understanding and agreement, right? Even moreso when neither side is clearly in the "right" and both sides have plenty of "wrong" behind them.
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Old 18th September 2016, 08:11 AM   #1277
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Since 1948 the USA has played the role of a colonial metropoli. Big amounts of private and institutional economical aid, military assistance, the ritual blocking of the condemnation of the State of Israel in the UN, effective attacks against the enemies of Israel and some episodic vague references to the settlements and the Human Rights violations of the State of Israel without any concrete measurement against them.
"Giving charity"? Surely you are joking, Mr. Aridas!
So what should the US have done? allowed the arabs to finish the job Hitler started? (bear in mind the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a Nazi) Tried to force a one state solution that would have ended up like Iraq and Syria now?
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Old 20th September 2016, 07:33 AM   #1278
Jules Galen
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
So what should the US have done? allowed the arabs to finish the job Hitler started? (bear in mind the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a Nazi) Tried to force a one state solution that would have ended up like Iraq and Syria now?
Blah Blah Blah.

Meanwhile, in the Real World, Israel keeps stealing Palestinian land, imprisoning the Palestinian People in open-air concentration camps, and murdering those Palestinians who resist.
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Old 20th September 2016, 08:38 AM   #1279
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Blah Blah Blah.
If you can't answer the question, then just admit it.

Quote:
Meanwhile, in the Real World, Israel keeps stealing Palestinian land, imprisoning the Palestinian People in open-air concentration camps, and murdering those Palestinians who resist.
Yeah, that's not the real world. Oh, my mistake, you said "Real World", not "real world". Make sure to add a TM next time.
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Old 20th September 2016, 01:45 PM   #1280
Jules Galen
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you can't answer the question, then just admit it.



Yeah, that's not the real world. Oh, my mistake, you said "Real World", not "real world". Make sure to add a TM next time.
What? Why are you posting?

Did you run out of puppies and kittens to strangle, or something?
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