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11th May 2019, 07:27 PM | #41 |
Penultimate Amazing
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My grandmother, who bore and raised her children in the 1920's and 1930's when abortion was definitely illegal, told me personally that it is not an "abortion/no abortion" question. It has always been "legal abortion/illegal abortion" question. Abortion has always existed, and has been practiced, legal or not. Make it illegal again and it will simply go underground again, making it dangerous and exploitative. That point seems entirely lost on these legislators.
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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11th May 2019, 07:34 PM | #42 |
Nasty Woman
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11th May 2019, 07:35 PM | #43 |
Nasty Woman
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11th May 2019, 07:38 PM | #44 |
Penultimate Amazing
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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11th May 2019, 07:41 PM | #45 |
Dark Lord of the JREF
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"The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head." |
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11th May 2019, 08:27 PM | #46 | |||
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
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Being the victim of genocidal atrocities does not give you free reign to commit your own genocidal atrocities. When Republican politicians were young, they were the kids who watched James Bond movies and said "I want to grow up to be just like [insert name of villain here]." |
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11th May 2019, 10:50 PM | #47 |
Misanthrope of the Mountains
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"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
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12th May 2019, 12:26 AM | #48 |
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Your statement above is simply false.
Neither the government of Ohio nor any government is mandating that, nor has anyone introduced any legislation that would, if passed, mandate any such thing. The statement is false, as are the other statements from the OP. The proposed legislation that seems to be the basis for your statements about ectopic pregnancy is indeed a pretty darned stupid bill, but it deals with insurance coverage for public employees in the state of Ohio, and nothing else. In fact, it even allows for insurance coverage of abortions in the case of ectopic pregnancy. In the course of discussing which abortion procedures could be covered, it makes a very stupid statement about ectopic pregnancy. There are plenty of bad things that could be said about Republicans and/or legislation proposed by Republicans. There's no need to make stuff up. |
12th May 2019, 03:08 AM | #49 |
Misanthrope of the Mountains
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Please explain how government employees being told their medical bills won't be paid if they get an ectopic pregnancy (remember this likely means an ambulance trip, an ER visit, and a surgery so very pricey) unless a non-existent procedure is done isn't the government mandating that a non-existent procedure be performed? You think pregnant women just keep several hundred thousand laying around to cover this? |
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"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
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12th May 2019, 07:12 AM | #50 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I don't think that point matters.
Suppose you genuinely believe that abortion is murder. You could save some lives of those who choose abortion by making it legal and hence safer. But in doing so, you are essentially making this form of murder legal. If we only care about cost to society, that would be the right thing to do, but if you regard the moral status of abortion as important (and also regard abortion the moral equivalent of murder), it would almost certainly be the wrong thing to do. Even if it comes with lower social cost, it would be wrong to say that murder is acceptable. Mind, I'm not arguing that abortion ought to be illegal. I'm just pointing out that one who genuinely believes abortion is murder (and this is not a stupid opinion from my point of view) could acknowledge that outlawing abortion comes with higher social costs, deaths from botched backalley abortions even, and still consistently say this is what we ought to do. |
12th May 2019, 07:14 AM | #51 |
Penultimate Amazing
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It's totally possible that both you and proponents of this bill are out of line. Your tedious hyperbole is not nearly as bad as the effects of this bill, but the fact that the bill is bad doesn't mean your hyperbole should be dismissed.
For goodness sake, criticize the bad actions of politicians, but don't misrepresent their positions. It is dishonest and ineffective. |
12th May 2019, 07:20 AM | #52 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I can't understand your point here.
According to Meadmaker, the bill pays for abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancies. I'll take his word on this. Hence, no one is forced to get a non-existent procedure done. Let's suppose that's not the case, however, and the bill would forbid the insurance paying for abortion in that case. Well, then the woman would have to pay for an abortion. That would be a large burden, regrettable no doubt. But where do you get the several hundred thousand notion? If that's the cost of the non-existent procedure, then it's irrelevant since (1) presumably the bill would mandate payment for that and (2) the woman would still have the option of abortion, which costs rather less than several hundred thousand. So what did you mean above? |
12th May 2019, 07:38 AM | #53 |
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12th May 2019, 07:38 AM | #54 |
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The bill doesn't say that. This is a fiction.
The bill is stupid, and it does reference the non-existent procedure to which you are referring, but it does not say that this non-existent procedure must be performed or attempted in order to secure funding for some other, real, procedure. The bill says insurance companies may fund abortion if the abortion is necessary to save the life of the mother. There are no restrictions, requirements, or prohibitions on that clause of the legislation. The bill also has not been voted on, and I am extremely confident that if it ever gets to a vote, this one specific bit of idiocy will be edited out before even the vote takes place. My goal here is not to defend the legislation or the idiot legislator who introduced it. In the press, it has been derided, correctly in my opinion, as an example of legislation being introduced by abortion opponents that demonstrates their ignorance of medicine, among other things. The guy is an idiot, as are a lot of people who oppose abortion, and his bill is proof of his idiocy. However, it does not do what you say it does, either in the OP, or in your more recent post. There's plenty of stupid to criticize if you stick to what the bill actually does. There's no need to invent additional stupid. |
12th May 2019, 08:29 AM | #55 |
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12th May 2019, 09:45 AM | #56 |
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12th May 2019, 10:59 AM | #57 |
"más divertido"
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Gilead is a mountain east of the Jordan River. It was referred to in Genesis. Is that the mountain that the people who didn't freak out about others who voted for Jill Stein supposed to jump off? Does it have cliffs?
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12th May 2019, 11:06 AM | #58 |
Penultimate Amazing
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There is no Antimemetics Division. |
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12th May 2019, 11:08 AM | #59 |
The Clarity Is Devastating
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After we transition into Gilead, will we be allowed to use Gilead rest rooms?
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"*Except Myriad. Even Cthulhu would give him a pat on the head and an ice cream and send him to the movies while he ended the rest of the world." - Foster Zygote |
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12th May 2019, 11:09 AM | #60 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Quoted because it bears repeating. Birth control and sex education are the very best ways of preventing abortion, but somehow the (usually Republican) idiots who oppose abortion also oppose those. "Abstinence Only" has, IIRC, been shown to actually increase rates of teen pregnancy.
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Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. |
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12th May 2019, 12:50 PM | #61 |
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12th May 2019, 01:07 PM | #62 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Yes.
Bit of trivia: the original url doesn't have asterisks. The forum software substitutes those, but fortunately the number at the end allows the server software at the linked site to recover the correct link. But let this stand as a language warning, there's some swearing involved. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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12th May 2019, 01:10 PM | #63 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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12th May 2019, 01:16 PM | #64 |
Rough Around the Edges
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isissxn enters thread with mild interest
half a page later... isissxn shudders and runs away from thread forever |
12th May 2019, 01:44 PM | #65 |
Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness
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Do any of these states who do not allow abortions if rape is involved also have the possibility that the father can claim custody of the child? Rapists would then be able to use women as incubators for their children and discard the mothers at brith.
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Normal is just a stereotype. |
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12th May 2019, 06:59 PM | #66 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Is it coincidence?
"Gilead Sciences, the maker of HIV prevention drug Truvada, is sending the United States a very big gift. It will be donating enough supply to support Trump’s initiative that seeks to eliminate transmission of the virus within the next decade." https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-str...PL14662qTSkhZ0 I know.. it has nothing to do with the topic, other than a coincidental name. |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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12th May 2019, 07:02 PM | #67 |
Penultimate Amazing
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There is no Antimemetics Division. |
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12th May 2019, 07:14 PM | #68 |
Penultimate Amazing
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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12th May 2019, 07:37 PM | #69 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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12th May 2019, 11:13 PM | #70 |
Philosopher
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It's not hard to understand why. It's all about the numbers. They want more teen pregnancies because it gives them more children to indoctrinate with their hateful cult fantasies. The more people they have under their thumb the more powerful the cult becomes, so of course they appose anything that reduces the birth rate (sex education, birth control, abortion, homosexuality etc.).
Genesis 38:8-10
Quote:
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We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good. |
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12th May 2019, 11:16 PM | #71 |
Philosopher
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We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good. |
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12th May 2019, 11:28 PM | #72 |
Not a doctor.
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I'm probably the only person reading this from Goliad county, so I'm confused on when you will all be arriving. I probably have enough beer, but whisky is running a bit low.
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Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake. |
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13th May 2019, 01:15 AM | #73 |
Misanthrope of the Mountains
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If what you are saying is correct then I jumped to a conclusion or misinterpreted something. Doesn't change that these states are very much trying to eliminate huge swathes of women's healthcare. If Georgia gets its way when do women get so scared of being reported as pregnant that they just stop seeing doctors? "Why yes, I'll have the cake and an ectopic pregnancy, please schedule it for next Tuesday." |
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"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
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13th May 2019, 04:34 AM | #74 |
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What they are trying to eliminate is elective abortion, which I suppose is a "huge swath". People are probably a bit complacent about it. No one in America who is capable of getting pregnant today can remember a time when abortion was not a safe and legal option. It has just always been. If Roe v. Wade is overturned, and I think it will be, there will be some rude awakenings. Also, abortion will be front and center politically. For most of the electorate, it really hasn't been an issue for their whole lives. Whether a politician was for it or against it, the Supreme Court said it was legal, so it didn't much matter what the politician said.
Now, this issue is one that will actually affect people's lives in a big way, even more than whether they pay and additional 1% of their income in taxes. In order to try to shake people out of their complacency, the opinion portion of the media exaggerates, engages in hyperbole, takes things out of context in order to distort it, and generally is more interested in gaining support than in providing accurate information. You bought into that hype. For example:
Quote:
The answer is never. I don't know what's in the Georgia law, but I am extremely confident that there is nothing in it that would make a woman stop seeing a doctor, and I am extremely confident it would not provide the death penalty for a pregnant woman who gets an abortion. I say that without even knowing the contents of the bill. I will probably look it up to say what the bill really says, but I'm confident it is not that. On the other hand, what they are actually doing is making it illegal to get an abortion. I am fairly certain that some of the various bills that have been passed lately could result in women being thrown in prison for getting, or possible even seeking, an abortion. I think that time is coming soon in America. On the other hand, I've thought that before. I remember the day that the opinion for Webster v. Missouri came out. For some reason, I happened to be home that day from work, and it was being covered live. There was a lot of anticipation that Roe was going to be overturned, but the Supreme Court surprised everyone. We'll see what happens this time around. That was a long time ago. I don't think anyone on the court today was on the court then. |
13th May 2019, 04:44 AM | #75 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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13th May 2019, 08:10 AM | #76 |
Dark Lord of the JREF
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"The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head." |
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13th May 2019, 08:35 AM | #77 |
Penultimate Amazing
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13th May 2019, 08:51 AM | #78 |
No longer the 1
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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13th May 2019, 09:00 AM | #79 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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13th May 2019, 09:13 AM | #80 |
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