|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
13th May 2019, 09:25 AM | #81 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Land of the Frozen Chosen
Posts: 1,022
|
|
__________________
"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." ~ Emo Phillips |
|
13th May 2019, 09:33 AM | #82 |
Dark Lord of the JREF
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Somewhere Else
Posts: 5,805
|
|
__________________
"The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head." |
|
13th May 2019, 09:35 AM | #83 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
And if you dare say "Hey maybe we should have standards beyond comparisons to what some member of the other tribe did" we're told we're "Saying both sides are equally bad."
|
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
13th May 2019, 09:35 AM | #84 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,511
|
You suppose? Exactly which abortions are mandatory?
In their heart of hearts, I think a majority in this country does not want abortion criminalized. I'm not sure even most Republicans want it criminalized. This is nothing more than virtue signaling. Conservative legislatures have been doing this for decades, knowing their laws would be struck down. Kind of like Republicans calling for the repeal of the Affordable Care Act. It was a safe position of protest. At this point there is a hella precedent for saying the right to an abortion is well-established law and policy. I'm not sure about precedents in regards to declaring a 6-week-old fetus a human being and giving it full rights under the law. Can you declare a zygote as a dependent on your tax returns? Buy it life insurance? Is it eligible for Medicaid? Will it be counted in the Census? Will there be custody fights? Etc. I hope this will increase awareness of the Plan B option which is (for now) safe, legal and available over the counter. I hope there are volunteers willing to give women rides to other states, without fearing they will be charged as accessories to murder. It also will make no sense to make exceptions for rape and incest, obviously. And it will make no sense not to prosecute women getting abortions. The person who hires a hit man is still guilty even if they did not perform the actual murder. And why stop at the fetal heartbeat? That's as arbitrary a point as any. We might as well extend it to zygotes, which will raise issues for the IVF industry. I asked my mom if abortion should be illegal and she said it's a sin. She is Republican, all for birth control and raised 2 adopted newborn boys. So she's pretty consistent. Yet she dodged the question. I used to think she was the Republican base, but she's 94, from another era entirely, and doesn't like Trump. In her heart of hearts, I do not think she wants abortion to be illegal. Bottom line, forcing a girl or woman to give birth against her will is probably not something she really wants. Evolved common law has historically permitted abortion before "quickening" and even the Bible says that someone who assaults a pregnant woman, causing her to miscarry, is on the hook for financial damages only. Usually I think Travis tortures himself with hyperbole, but I'm not sure in this case he's actually wrong. The Georgia Legislature's reasoning on this issue is deeply flawed. Should it become the law of the land, it will have boatloads of unintended consequences. |
13th May 2019, 09:38 AM | #85 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,425
|
|
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
13th May 2019, 09:40 AM | #86 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
And of course in ectopic pregnancies and other life threatening conditions that the fetus will never be viable and only risk the woman's life. But these thing will only effect poor women, not women to can travel(well except those who die from the refused abortions) so by definition not anyone who matters.
|
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
13th May 2019, 09:43 AM | #87 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
|
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
13th May 2019, 09:43 AM | #88 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
There's a handful of discussions, debates stuck in the popular consciousness that I think have been a symbolic fight for some vague, impossible to put into words broad almost philosophical divide that we've come full circle.
I'll put all my cards on the table. I'm 100% pro-abortion rights to pretty much the most liberal degree that's reasonably on the table (As in I'm for open, no fault access to abortions pretty throughout the entire pregnancy) while at the same time not fully grasping why this is the debate it is. |
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
13th May 2019, 09:50 AM | #89 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Land of the Frozen Chosen
Posts: 1,022
|
I guess it's going to take another century or two before everyone finally decides to keep their noses out of other peoples' uteruses....
|
__________________
"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." ~ Emo Phillips |
|
13th May 2019, 09:53 AM | #90 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
Excellent post, Minoosh.
Why is it that those who complain the most about 'personal freedoms' being impinged upon by the government tend to be those who have wanted to control a person's personal life the most? Laws against a woman's right to control her own body, sodomy, homosexuality, interracial marriages, same-sex marriage were all supported largely by conservatives who rail against big government taking our 'rights' away. |
13th May 2019, 10:01 AM | #91 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Land of the Frozen Chosen
Posts: 1,022
|
|
__________________
"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." ~ Emo Phillips |
|
13th May 2019, 10:17 AM | #92 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,511
|
I don't think I would have gotten an abortion back when I could get pregnant. That made me hypervigilant about birth control. But I had advantages a lot of girls/women didn't have.
If there are people who think life begins at conception and are willing to accept all of the ramifications of that, I might give them points for consistency. If Jesus Christ had said anything about abortion or homosexuality, at least the objection would be possibly "Christian." But I don't understand accepting part of the OT while jettisoning some of it entirely. Exodus does not treat human-caused miscarriages as murder, and the bit about cursing the fruit of a woman's womb is not exactly a pro-life position. |
13th May 2019, 10:18 AM | #93 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: the wet side of the mountains
Posts: 3,906
|
Of course, they've declared that traveling out of state to get an abortion will be illegal and result in prison time too. So if you leave the state for an abortion, or miscarry, you'd better not go home.
I'm so glad I live in a state that legalized abortion before Roe vs. Wade, and so isn't dependent on that ruling. I hope we don't end up having to run an underground railroad for pregnant women. |
13th May 2019, 11:05 AM | #94 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,087
|
This might not be popular, but here goes.
The law of unintended consequences. If California and New York can ignore the law on *whatever* settled issue, *whatever* state that decides they disagree with settled law can ignore the law likewise. |
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
|
13th May 2019, 11:15 AM | #95 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
There's always going to be a balance on this and it's never gonna make everyone happy.
Yes, ignoring/circumventing/choosing to enforce/whatever a law is always crossing a line to some degree. But on the other hand everything ever done ever could be taken to some unreasonable level by somebody somewhere. We are are not slaves to every possible outcome of every we take. And besides in politics and law "Well that's settled" is a very weird statement to make. |
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
13th May 2019, 11:28 AM | #96 |
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 29,033
|
|
13th May 2019, 11:38 AM | #97 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
|
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
13th May 2019, 12:27 PM | #98 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,087
|
I believe the a woman's' right to an abortion is a settled issue as of Roe v. Wade.
I believe that the Civil Rights act and the Voting Rights act are settled law. I believe in marriage equality. Eventually the Supreme Court upheld marriage equality. All those beliefs are A. O.K. in my state. I don't believe that criminal illegal aliens ought to be protected from the legal consequences of their acts. The city I reside in has made the protection of criminally convicted illegal aliens a higher priority than protecting the safety of San Francisco residents and visitors. And they've gotten away with it, at least so far. That may change if an important person is victimized, but evidently my friend Tony Bologna and two of his three sons getting murdered didn't rise to the level of political notice. If a city/state can get away with protecting convicted criminals the way San Francisco and California has, some state will be emboldened to restrict or eliminate Civil/Voting/Abortion rights and possibly get away with it. |
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
|
13th May 2019, 12:53 PM | #99 |
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 29,033
|
|
13th May 2019, 04:29 PM | #100 |
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 29,033
|
I've read the law. I've read commentaries on the law. Basically, it's not nearly as open and shut as the whole "Ohio ectopic pregnancy" thing was, but it's mostly straightforward. It's clear enough that there is a very obvious way in which the law is interpreted, and I would be very surprised if any other interpretation of the law that a judge would uphold, at least on appeal. (You never know what kind of idiotic ruling might happen at a local level.) The bill amends a very specific section of Georgia law, dealing with illegal abortions. Yes, in every state of the union, some abortions are illegal. I can't just set up "Dave's abortion shop", and start performing abortions. I would be arrested and jailed. The same was true in Georgia, and said that anyone performing illegal abortions could get 1 to 10 years. What the Georgia law does is amend that section on illegal abortions to make a whole lot more abortions illegal. In fact, most abortions would be illegal. The ones that would not be illegal would be 1) anything done before a fetal heartbeat. 2) any abortion before 20 weeks, if the pregnancy was the result of rape or incest, and a charge was made 3) The life of the mother is in danger 4) the pregnancy is "medically futile", meaning that the baby will not survive to the end of the term. There might be a couple of other provisions, but those are the big ones. Remember, in the above cases, it remains legal to get an abortion. All others, which is most of them, become illegal, and subject to Georgia's illegal abortion law, which has a jail term of 1 to 10 years. In previous rulings, it has been said that only the provider can be jailed, not the actual woman having an abortion, even if self performed. That's the straightforward, obvious, meaning of the bill. However, there is enough other language in the bill that I could see someone arguing that it means something else entirely. It's not likely the argument would succeed, but it isn't absolutely ridiculous to suggest that it might. In other words, someone might try to insist that it really means that killing an unborn child is murder. That's where all this hype about death penalties or life in prison come from. The bill doesn't say that. However, prosecutors and judges sometimes twist the meanings of statutes into tortuous interpretations, and it is not beyond possibility that they might do so here. It's not so absolutely, incredibly, clear in the bill that there's no room for someone to try it. It is America after all, and the law says what the lawyers want it to say, when all is said and done. |
13th May 2019, 04:42 PM | #101 |
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 29,033
|
With Kavanaugh replacing Kennedy, that's no longer the case. It might not be struck down at the Supreme Court.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
13th May 2019, 05:09 PM | #102 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,511
|
Helpfully, Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp commented on the intent of the law:
Originally Posted by NPR
I don't know why you think lawyers would have to "twist" the law in order to conclude that Georgia's bill makes abortion tantamount to murder. Gov. Kemp said every baby has the right to life. In context, it's clear that by "baby" he means any fetus with a detectable heartbeat. If someone wants to state that life begins at conception, and follows that through to its logical conclusion, I would give them points for integrity. But any bill that makes exceptions for rape or incest is admitting that such fetuses are not actually babies just yet, even if they have a detectable heartbeat. ETA: And if they're not "babies," what is the state's interest in regulating pregnant women's behavior? |
13th May 2019, 05:17 PM | #103 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,511
|
|
13th May 2019, 05:32 PM | #104 |
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 29,033
|
Because I have read the bill, and the bill uses words, and the words have meaning. ETA: Make no mistake. They are definitely trying to outlaw abortion, and I am in no way defending that. I just think that when we talk about the bill, we should talk about what it actually does, rather than make up flights of fancy or wild exaggerations. When people do that, it attracts attention and might "energize the base", and it may even take some people off the fence and decide to come to your side. However, when they find out they've been lied to, they get ticked off, and you can lose them for good. It's better to just tell the truth. There will be no executions. There will be no life sentences. There will be no jail terms for miscarriages. There is no reason that a woman ought to fear talking to her doctor. That's all made up nonsense. There will definitely be jail time for abortion providers. Reading the bill, it seems to me that there will be jail time for women who have an abortion, although I have read analyses that say it will not happen. It is conceivable that someone might try to get from that bill to a charge of murder. The bill is just vague enough that someone might give it a shot, but if Georgia has judges with integrity, it won't stick, because the plain language of the bill says something else. However, there's enough vagueness in some parts that someone might give it a try. And of course, this is just one bill. Will they try to put even more restrictions on next year? I can't rule it out. On the other hand, it's possible that the Supreme Court will uphold Roe v. Wade and it will become a moot point. I can't see what will happen in the future. One thing I am certain is that if the Supreme Court hears a case, and upholds Roe v. Wade, the GOP legislatures will wait until one of the justices retires, and they'll pass yet another law that is clearly in violation of Roe v. Wade and try again. They are definitely trying to end abortion on demand in this country, and they are fairly determined to do it, but they aren't waiting to put young pregnant women on death row. |
13th May 2019, 08:19 PM | #105 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,511
|
|
13th May 2019, 09:43 PM | #106 |
Misanthrope of the Mountains
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 24,133
|
Since women who have miscarriages will also be subject to prison I very well think women stuck in Georgia who suspect they might be pregnant might just do everything they can to keep it a secret from officials until it is born lest they end up doing time if it miscarries. Already, on Twitter, women in professions that allow them to move are requesting transfers out of Georgia because they don't want to end up on the wrong side of these new laws should they want to have children. The abortion debate has now become part of the larger conspiracy, supposedly by Jewish bankers, to end white civilization. It is called "The Great Replacement" and when those crazies teamed up with the pro life crowd, infusing paranoid racism into it, things went a bit off the rail and now here we are. |
__________________
"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
|
|
14th May 2019, 03:22 AM | #107 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
Bah those are no more settled than Plessy vs Ferguson. Now that we have a properly christian court again we can get the government back to how the founders intended. Getting rid of all of those has been a solid goal in chosing justices. They are no more settled than Seperate but equal was by the above case or the interpretation the courts used for the second amendment for over 100 years. But hey no big deal surely.
|
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
14th May 2019, 03:32 AM | #108 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 20,145
|
Welcome to Crazy Town
|
14th May 2019, 03:34 AM | #109 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,384
|
Agreed. If fetuses have the right to life, this doesn't depend on how fetuses were conceived since the fetus played no role in that. If, on the other hand, the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother, it is reasonable to allow for an abortion (but not necessarily inconsistent not to do so, depending on one's reasoning -- if killing is worse than allowing the woman to die, then an abortion in that case may be morally prohibited, even if both mother and fetus would die in the end).
|
14th May 2019, 03:35 AM | #110 |
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 29,033
|
|
14th May 2019, 04:46 AM | #111 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,425
|
|
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
14th May 2019, 05:27 AM | #112 |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,233
|
|
14th May 2019, 06:20 AM | #113 |
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 29,033
|
|
14th May 2019, 06:31 AM | #114 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
|
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division. |
|
14th May 2019, 06:34 AM | #115 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 22,557
|
If a baby is born with problems due to the mother having used drugs/alcohol etc. during pregnancy - can it sue?
|
__________________
“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.” |
|
14th May 2019, 06:44 AM | #116 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 4,405
|
One thing is different than pre-RvW: If abortion is illegal in this state, there is likely a state nearby that will do it.
I predict if too many states effectively outlaw abortion: 1. Abortion tourism will become a thing. Take a vacation pregnant, come home not pregnant; 2. Foundations will eventually pay for poor women to take the vacation; |
__________________
- "Who is the greater fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the fool?" [Uknown] - "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games'] |
|
14th May 2019, 06:58 AM | #117 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
You know this has happened already right?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.15f57b90d018 ANd how countries with strong abortion bans deal with miscarriages. https://www.pri.org/stories/2018-12-...me-miscarriage Really if her neglect caused the miscarriage it only makes sense to charge her. There really is nothing new about this. |
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
14th May 2019, 07:29 AM | #118 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,087
|
|
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
|
14th May 2019, 07:49 AM | #119 |
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 29,033
|
|
14th May 2019, 08:10 AM | #120 |
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 29,033
|
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|