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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , church scandals , George Pell , roman catholic church , sex scandals

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Old 29th August 2019, 11:49 PM   #1521
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Very interesting that 1) she considers it has been a narrative of right v left, was surprised to hear that as in the UK it hasn't been like that. 2) She seems to me to have been a "cultural" RC as she doesn't talk about her faith, her relationship with god etc. what are meant to be the fundamentals of RC faith.
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Old 30th August 2019, 03:27 PM   #1522
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Dara O Briain comes to mind here.

In one of his presentations Dara describes himself as not a very spiritual man. He has no belief in God but self identifies as a Catholic because well ..... there's just no way out of it.
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Old 6th September 2019, 02:18 PM   #1523
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A victim of child abuse identified as JCB is suing the Catholic Church in an action set for January 29. This is taking place in Victoria where laws were changed last year enabling the the suing of the church as a legal entity. The abuser was non other than Ridsdale who is doing time after being found guilty some time ago. His buddy Pell is, or soon will be, contained within the same prison walls.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-...ility/11487214

Quote:
"We have admissions from both a former bishop of the diocese and the diocese itself and we understand that's a first in Victoria, possibly Australia, in terms of the Catholic Church actually admitting liability in an historic child abuse case," said lawyer Chris Atmore.
Getting hold of these documents seems to have been a struggle with the RCC being tardy in response to the Royal Commission's demands.

Quote:
In a Supreme court directions hearing, barrister Gary Taylor asked the Archbishop of Ballarat to search the Diocese's archives for documents relating to complaints about Ridsdale.
"We have been pressing for the documents since October 2018. The documents have been sent to us on a dribs and drabs basis."
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Old 7th September 2019, 12:07 AM   #1524
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Dara O Briain comes to mind here.

In one of his presentations Dara describes himself as not a very spiritual man. He has no belief in God but self identifies as a Catholic because well ..... there's just no way out of it.
I sort of get this. I am an atheist but reflexively cross myself in Latin when a hearse drives by. There's a certain comfort and sense of belonging in the ritual even though I don't believe in it. I still host a big Italian feast at my house every Easter even though I don't attend mass.
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Old 7th September 2019, 09:48 AM   #1525
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I sort of get this. I am an atheist but reflexively cross myself in Latin when a hearse drives by. There's a certain comfort and sense of belonging in the ritual even though I don't believe in it. I still host a big Italian feast at my house every Easter even though I don't attend mass.
I fully sympathise. The ritual reactions are forced into our brains as mere children. It might well be impossible to fully shed those habits that were so carefully ingrained into our formative minds.

Personally, I have eliminated most of it, yet still I get caught by some barely remembered ritualistic response from childhood every now and then.
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Old 7th September 2019, 02:01 PM   #1526
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Old 17th September 2019, 02:05 PM   #1527
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So as we wait for the latest news of a High Court appeal, we now find the chances that a leave to appeal are somewhat doubtful for Pell.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-...-pell/11521418

Quote:
Statistically, what are Cardinal Pell's chances?

Not that great. Annual reports show most special leave applications are denied.
A 2019 study found only 23 out of 161 applications in the criminal jurisdiction were successful over two years (14.29 per cent).
A scan of recent applications for special leave to appeal based on the unreasonable verdict argument in child sexual offences shows all were dismissed (for example, O'Brien).

Meanwhile The Vatican does what it does best - sits on hands.
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Old 17th September 2019, 07:38 PM   #1528
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Meanwhile The Vatican does what it does best - sits on hands.
I'll bet there's some pretty frantic goings-on behind closed doors.
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Old 21st September 2019, 06:30 AM   #1529
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'll bet there's some pretty frantic goings-on behind closed doors.
Yep, and I'd bet that none of them have to do with protecting children.
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Old 21st September 2019, 03:11 PM   #1530
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I would like to know where all the money is coming from for Pell's legal costs, which must be very high and well beyond the capacity of the average guy in the street to pay.

I wonder if Pell managed to squirrel some away when he was looking after The Vatican finances. Kick backs from suppliers would be another source of income I think. Suppliers of wafers and wine, elaborate robes, and funny hats.
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Old 21st September 2019, 11:09 PM   #1531
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I would like to know where all the money is coming from for Pell's legal costs, which must be very high and well beyond the capacity of the average guy in the street to pay.

I wonder if Pell managed to squirrel some away when he was looking after The Vatican finances. Kick backs from suppliers would be another source of income I think. Suppliers of wafers and wine, elaborate robes, and funny hats.
I imagine he has some backers who have more money than sense and care more for Holy Mother Church than children.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 02:37 PM   #1532
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I imagine he has some backers who have more money than sense and care more for Holy Mother Church than children.

I suspect you are right.

I think the Holy Mother Church may be able to make some money out of these suckers. If they were to put some special "Indulgences" on sale for Pell I bet the true Pell believers would line up to buy them.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 02:01 PM   #1533
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So now one Vincent Doyle is blowing the lid on Catholic Priest dads all over the World. With the intention of helping other children of priests like himself he has a opened a website and is overwhelmed by the response.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-...ional/11532668


Quote:
Vincent Doyle was 28 years old when he discovered his beloved godfather, a Catholic priest who had died years before, was actually his biological dad.

......

Based on the number of hits received on his website and other information, Vincent estimates there could be at least 10,000 children of priests globally.
"Priests are breaking their celibacy vow in every country in the world. As long as you have priests, you will have children of Catholic priests."

So much for celibacy vows. 10,000 children globally! That represents a lot of priestly bonking. I wonder if condoms are shunned, as they stay true to the churches direction on this matter.
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Old 26th September 2019, 10:56 PM   #1534
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Have been sightseeing in a number of Catholic churches over the past fortnight; lots of collection plates, but none for the victims of predatory priests.

A weird beatification tableau in one that seemed to be requesting that a bloke should be made a saint because he'd been particularly pleasant. Man alive, the bar is low nowadays
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Old 26th September 2019, 11:04 PM   #1535
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Breaking news!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-...hurch/11555748


One million bucks settlement from the Catholic Church for a victim of Ridsdale.
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Old 26th September 2019, 11:07 PM   #1536
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
Have been sightseeing in a number of Catholic churches over the past fortnight; lots of collection plates, but none for the victims of predatory priests.

A weird beatification tableau in one that seemed to be requesting that a bloke should be made a saint because he'd been particularly pleasant. Man alive, the bar is low nowadays

Was the one to be beatified a child rapist? He was pleasant about it maybe.
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Old 27th September 2019, 12:03 AM   #1537
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No, don't believe so
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Old 27th September 2019, 05:38 PM   #1538
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I may have asked this question before and can't recall if there were many informative responses.

The so called "Ellis defence" was scrapped in NSW last year, so now the Catholic Church is recognised as an entity that can be sued. This would have facilitated the successful litigation mentioned a few posts back.

What is the situation in the rest of Australia and the World? Are some here aware of the situation where they live?

I can imagine cardinals quaking in their shoes and pissing in their pants frocks as they cower in the Vatican.
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Old 28th September 2019, 12:42 AM   #1539
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Don't forget the RCC has plenty of experience of protecting itself, so it knows how it has to restructure the "business" side from time to time to protect the church's financial assets. Also as came out in one of the many investigations into historic abuse, they even discussed how to insure themselves (as in buying an insurance policy) against claims arising from priests abusing children. This was at the time when the church was still publicly denying abuse and knowledge of abuse but behind the scenes actively protected known child abusers. So you may find they have insurance policies that are meant to pay out in case the church is sued in regards to past child abuse.
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Old 28th September 2019, 03:29 AM   #1540
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In the United States the church gets sued frequently over this. There have been lawsuits from Fairbanks Alaska to New England and pretty much everywhere in-between. The dioceses usually files for bankruptcy protection but judges have generally ordered cash payouts to the plaintiffs during the settlement.
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Old 28th September 2019, 04:31 AM   #1541
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I would like to know where all the money is coming from for Pell's legal costs, which must be very high and well beyond the capacity of the average guy in the street to pay.

I wonder if Pell managed to squirrel some away when he was looking after The Vatican finances. Kick backs from suppliers would be another source of income I think. Suppliers of wafers and wine, elaborate robes, and funny hats.
He set up a fund to pay his costs in 2017, run by a law firm (Ferdinand Zito and Associates) and supported and publicised by the Church and its publicity machine (online, in churches and in print). In additional to the "faithful" he's being funded by the church, members of the hierarchy, right-wing backers, and the usual suspects. Over five million Australian dollars so far.
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Old 28th September 2019, 02:44 PM   #1542
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Don't forget the RCC has plenty of experience of protecting itself, so it knows how it has to restructure the "business" side from time to time to protect the church's financial assets. Also as came out in one of the many investigations into historic abuse, they even discussed how to insure themselves (as in buying an insurance policy) against claims arising from priests abusing children. This was at the time when the church was still publicly denying abuse and knowledge of abuse but behind the scenes actively protected known child abusers. So you may find they have insurance policies that are meant to pay out in case the church is sued in regards to past child abuse.

As the massive numbers of cases of child abuse has become known, one would think an insurer would be asking prohibitive premiums for cover. Interesting times I think. Are we about to see some serious bleeding of the RCC?
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Old 29th September 2019, 05:10 AM   #1543
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
As the massive numbers of cases of child abuse has become known, one would think an insurer would be asking prohibitive premiums for cover. Interesting times I think. Are we about to see some serious bleeding of the RCC?
Catholic churches buy their insurance from Catholic Mutual (http://www.catholicmutual.org/). A few articles mention that even they limit payouts in cases where multiple claims are combined into one. For the really large settlements (like Boston) it pays some of the liability but not all.
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Old 29th September 2019, 02:02 PM   #1544
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Catholic churches buy their insurance from Catholic Mutual (http://www.catholicmutual.org/). A few articles mention that even they limit payouts in cases where multiple claims are combined into one. For the really large settlements (like Boston) it pays some of the liability but not all.

Who pays the rest then?
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Old 30th September 2019, 03:45 AM   #1545
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Who pays the rest then?
Near as I can tell, most settlements don't get completely paid. Once the insurance limits is reached, the diocese either already has or will declare bankruptcy. Th bankruptcy judge then apportions the remaining funds among the creditors with the victims being one group of several.
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Old 6th October 2019, 02:00 PM   #1546
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The Amazon to have married priests! Now being suggested by Francis!


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-...hurch/11578350

Quote:
Pope Francis appealed to conservatives on Sunday not to be bound by the status quo as he opened an assembly of bishops to discuss the future of the Roman Catholic Church in the Amazon, including the possibility of introducing married priests.

Desperate times perhaps?

As you can imagine there are many conservatives up in arms about this. If you let this happen in the Amazon how would you stop this practice spreading around the World. Wives and concubines in the Vatican next - not that this is a new thing mind you.

Francis goes on to show his flexibility, by allowing Amazonians to practice some of their home grown hocus-pocus, in a tree planting ceremony in the Vatican - much to the chagrin of detractors.

Quote:
A number of conservatives have tweeted their disapproval of a tree-planting ceremony in the Vatican on Thursday in which people from the Amazon used native symbols and gestures, such as blessing the earth.
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Old 6th October 2019, 02:31 PM   #1547
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Christians have stolen things from other religions in order to convert people. For example Christmas and Easter were stolen from other religions. Yet these are the two most sacred holidays of Christians!
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Old 6th October 2019, 09:22 PM   #1548
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The Amazon to have married priests! Now being suggested by Francis!


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-...hurch/11578350




Desperate times perhaps?
Surely this is a change for the better, though, right?
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Old 7th October 2019, 02:24 PM   #1549
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Surely this is a change for the better, though, right?

Absolutely!

Given the history of the RCC and its strong position on celibacy for the clergy, it's just another example of the desperation in the church now, that this would be considered. The grumbling of the conservatives in the church an indication of disunity - sweet music to my ears.
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Old 7th October 2019, 04:23 PM   #1550
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Conservatives will always grumble about change. That's what being a conservative is all about. I don't know that it indicates disunity or desperation.
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Old 8th October 2019, 02:57 PM   #1551
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Conservatives will always grumble about change. That's what being a conservative is all about. I don't know that it indicates disunity or desperation.

If it was the liberal progressives doing the grumbling, would that indicate disunity then?
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Old 8th October 2019, 04:48 PM   #1552
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
If it was the liberal progressives doing the grumbling, would that indicate disunity then?
Well, you see, progressives are always grumbling about the conservatives, too. It's almost like grumbling about each other is something that progressives and conservatives tend to do.

In this particular case I don't think the progressives are grumbling enough. It's a good start, but the Catholic church is extremely conservative. It'll take an ecumenical council on the level of Vatican II to shift the policy on priestly marriage, and if it happens it will probably update a number of other policies at the same time, like (hopefully) the seal of the confessional and women in the priesthood.

Vatican III. If it happens, which it probably won't. Not in my lifetime anyway.
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Old 8th October 2019, 05:36 PM   #1553
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well, you see, progressives are always grumbling about the conservatives, too. It's almost like grumbling about each other is something that progressives and conservatives tend to do.

In this particular case I don't think the progressives are grumbling enough. It's a good start, but the Catholic church is extremely conservative. It'll take an ecumenical council on the level of Vatican II to shift the policy on priestly marriage, and if it happens it will probably update a number of other policies at the same time, like (hopefully) the seal of the confessional and women in the priesthood.

Vatican III. If it happens, which it probably won't. Not in my lifetime anyway.
Amen.

And if it did, I think there would be an honest-to-god schism in the Catholic church, reminiscent of the Western Schism or even the Great Schism.
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Old 8th October 2019, 05:48 PM   #1554
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Originally Posted by Humots View Post
Amen.

And if it did, I think there would be an honest-to-god schism in the Catholic church, reminiscent of the Western Schism or even the Great Schism.
There are already a number of churches that broke away from the Vatican after Vatican II, including the Sedevecantists (who don't recognise the legitimacy of any pope after Vatican II) and the Conclavists (who elect their own pope). I expect that this would continue to happen after Vatican III. I don't think it would be a full-on schism.
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Old 8th October 2019, 06:53 PM   #1555
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well, you see, progressives are always grumbling about the conservatives, too. It's almost like grumbling about each other is something that progressives and conservatives tend to do.

In this particular case I don't think the progressives are grumbling enough. It's a good start, but the Catholic church is extremely conservative. It'll take an ecumenical council on the level of Vatican II to shift the policy on priestly marriage, and if it happens it will probably update a number of other policies at the same time, like (hopefully) the seal of the confessional and women in the priesthood.

Vatican III. If it happens, which it probably won't. Not in my lifetime anyway.

Or Francis could sit down in that famous chair and do the ex cathedra thing.
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Old 8th October 2019, 07:05 PM   #1556
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Or Francis could sit down in that famous chair and do the ex cathedra thing.
Unless I’m mistaken, this has not happened for many centuries.

I’ll look it up.

ETA

Okay I was wrong. Very uncommon though, less than one a century, with the last one by Nazi sympathiser Pope Pius XII (Pope when I started being an altar boy) in 1950. How that evil toad could say anything infallible is beyond me.
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Old 8th October 2019, 07:44 PM   #1557
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Or Francis could sit down in that famous chair and do the ex cathedra thing.
Technically, since ex cathedra is used only for matters of doctrine, he could. But I think a lot of cardinals would want him not to.
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Old 8th October 2019, 08:54 PM   #1558
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well, you see, progressives are always grumbling about the conservatives, too. It's almost like grumbling about each other is something that progressives and conservatives tend to do.



In this particular case I don't think the progressives are grumbling enough. It's a good start, but the Catholic church is extremely conservative. It'll take an ecumenical council on the level of Vatican II to shift the policy on priestly marriage, and if it happens it will probably update a number of other policies at the same time, like (hopefully) the seal of the confessional and women in the priesthood.



Vatican III. If it happens, which it probably won't. Not in my lifetime anyway.
The RCC has always allowed its priests to marry when it was convenient for the church, so it is nothing that requires anything major to happen such as a Vat2.
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Old 8th October 2019, 09:05 PM   #1559
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The RCC has always allowed its priests to marry when it was convenient for the church, so it is nothing that requires anything major to happen such as a Vat2.
Doctrinally? Or just when it's convenient? I'm pretty sure priestly celibacy is doctrine, even though it turns out that a lot of priests do actually father children and the Vatican has procedures for what to do when that happens. I also know that there is and has been a lot of debate within the church about it.
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Old 8th October 2019, 09:39 PM   #1560
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I think the church in the US has been allowing married Episcopalian priests to convert for some time now.
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