ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 31st July 2019, 08:55 AM   #41
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 16,965
Originally Posted by dann View Post
I know what you mean, but unfortunately feeling sorry for people who cut themselves off from a profound sense of joy is what Christians often say when they pity atheists.
I've analogized it in the past this way:

I love my wife and she makes me happy. I'd be profoundly unhappy if I lost her. Therefor everyone who isn't married to my wife is profoundly unhappy.

It's a failure to understand, or at least to admit, that other people could find fulfillment in other things than you do. This is reinforced by the indoctrination that Jesus is the only way to fulfillment. So if they see people who aren't devoted to their beliefs they have to tell themselves that they pity those poor, miserable wretches. And if those poor, miserable wretches indicate that they are actually quite happy without Jesus, they have to inform those people that they are, in fact, poor, miserable wretches who cannot possibly be happy.

I suspect there's a sort of natural selection in religious beliefs, too. A religion doctrine that responded to alternative bases of fulfillment with, "that's cool - whatever works for you", is going to be less internally reinforced than one that refuses to acknowledge any other valid way of finding satisfaction.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 08:56 AM   #42
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 16,965
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Hard to say. I don't see a lot of "dumb" people here. Just a lot of smart people harboring a lot of hate.
Hatred toward what, or whom?
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 09:00 AM   #43
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 43,187
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
All well and good, but real talk? You need to fight a lot harder.

And none of the smart people here seem particularly happy.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Hard to say. I don't see a lot of "dumb" people here. Just a lot of smart people harboring a lot of hate.
You must be reading a different forum from me.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 09:06 AM   #44
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,239
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You consider hate and happiness incompatible?
Yep.

Quote:
It would be nice to imagine hateful people can't truly be happy, but that seems like wishful thinking to me.
Not while they're hating, anyway.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 09:15 AM   #45
8enotto
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 1,052
Fear is a powerful driving force. I doubt anyone is completely without fear of something.

Back when it was food, shelter and some reasonable protection from predator species we didn't care about any god. We feared the tigers in the rustling tall grass and worse the unseen tigers.
Even if it really was hedge hogs. Better safe than sorry.

Once we had controlled the tigers and the bears, we could defeat them and food was plenty, shelter secure the next tiers of fears set in. Will there be enough rain for our crops? Will the cattle breed successfully?
For lack of mundane knowledge we created new gods to help us. We knew how to appease them. When our knowledge surpassed those gods we forgot about them.

And now in times of plenty for many humans, living free of primal fears , we worry about the purpose and meaning of life?

Live it, chase a dream. Build a business, climb a mountain, learn to knit.... It's what WE make of it. Does it really matter if a soccer team takes a championship? Not to most who don't play on that team. But if that photo of the team with the trophy defines your greatest moment by god we gonna do anything to make it happen. Even pray.

It doesn't matter few care, it's that you cared. Whatever the objective was.
8enotto is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 09:23 AM   #46
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,239
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You must be reading a different forum from me.
Iain M. Banks wrote a novel about a civilization that spanned "five galaxies."

For the first few chapters, I was tempted to drop the book, simply because the distance between galaxies is too great for the premise to be plausible to me, even in a setting with hyperdrive.

Then it turned out that the setting was actually five civilizations in a single galaxy, but with sufficiently different evolutionary histories and resource requirements that they mostly didn't interact with each other. They'd gravitate to different star systems with different radiation profiles and resource mixes, and mostly stay out of each other's way.

Every so often, there'd be an incident that required two or more of the civilizations to meet somewhere neutral, overcome each other's essential inscrutability, and hammer out some sort of mutually agreeable arrangement.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 09:31 AM   #47
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 50,797
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yep.
Why? I don't see a direct connection between happiness and absence of hatred. How would it work? Adolf hates the Jews, so he must be unhappy?
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 09:37 AM   #48
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 50,797
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Iain M. Banks wrote a novel about a civilization that spanned "five galaxies."

For the first few chapters, I was tempted to drop the book, simply because the distance between galaxies is too great for the premise to be plausible to me, even in a setting with hyperdrive.
That seems an odd failure of imagination. You can imagine a thing, FTL travel, and can accept it functions, but merely increasing the degree of the thing to "much faster" makes it too implausible? It's not a new thing you're being asked to accept, it's a thing you already accept magnified to a greater degree.

I can imagine a cow, and then a much larger cow. That's not the same as being asked to imagine a cow, then imagine a werxelpretylinoblox.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 09:38 AM   #49
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 43,187
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Iain M. Banks wrote a novel about a civilization that spanned "five galaxies."

For the first few chapters, I was tempted to drop the book, simply because the distance between galaxies is too great for the premise to be plausible to me, even in a setting with hyperdrive.

Then it turned out that the setting was actually five civilizations in a single galaxy, but with sufficiently different evolutionary histories and resource requirements that they mostly didn't interact with each other. They'd gravitate to different star systems with different radiation profiles and resource mixes, and mostly stay out of each other's way.

Every so often, there'd be an incident that required two or more of the civilizations to meet somewhere neutral, overcome each other's essential inscrutability, and hammer out some sort of mutually agreeable arrangement.
Cool story, bro, as I believe the youngsters say. I imagine you're trying to say that we're seeing different subsets of the forum. Maybe so, but you may be forgetting that I don't get to choose which parts of the forum I get to visit, due to my role I get to see most of it, and most of the reported posts too. Maybe you should look at a wider selection of the sub-forums than you currently do, or else do more careful analysis on the posts you do read.

How are you gauging unhappiness? And the hate?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 09:40 AM   #50
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,239
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why?
Because.
Quote:
I don't see a direct connection between happiness and absence of hatred.
I do.
Quote:
How would it work?
Being unhappy means not being happy.
Quote:
Adolf hates the Jews, so he must be unhappy?
Pretty much.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 09:50 AM   #51
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 50,797
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Because.

I do.

Being unhappy means not being happy.

Pretty much.
On the off chance you're even slightly sincere, I'll clarify: hatred is the opposite of love, it's not the opposite of happiness. Hatred and love are how a person reacts to outside objects, the people and things one hates or loves. Happiness and unhappiness are states of mind, and don't require particular reactions to or even the existence of outside objects. I can be happy alone in my house. I cannot hate something without that something existing (or at least believed by me to exist). This seems to me to indicate the separateness of these two things, which being separate allow for existence in any combination. So we can be happy while hating something, be happy while not hating anything, be unhappy while hating something, and be unhappy while not hating anything.

I'll accept that one can't be happy while undergoing what one hates, but that's only temporary. Most people hate getting dental work but that doesn't mean they're unhappy when not in the chair.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 09:57 AM   #52
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,239
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
On the off chance you're even slightly sincere, I'll clarify: hatred is the opposite of love, it's not the opposite of happiness. Hatred and love are how a person reacts to outside objects, the people and things one hates or loves. Happiness and unhappiness are states of mind, and don't require particular reactions to or even the existence of outside objects. I can be happy alone in my house. I cannot hate something without that something existing (or at least believed by me to exist). This seems to me to indicate the separateness of these two things, which being separate allow for existence in any combination. So we can be happy while hating something, be happy while not hating anything, be unhappy while hating something, and be unhappy while not hating anything.

I'll accept that one can't be happy while undergoing what one hates, but that's only temporary. Most people hate getting dental work but that doesn't mean they're unhappy when not in the chair.
If dental work is on their mind, and they're experiencing hatred, they're not happy.

If the things you hate are on your mind a lot, then you are not a happy person.

If you spend a lot of time expressing or indulging your hatreds, then you are not a happy person.

Further, I would say that someone who harbors a hatred of Jews (for example) is probably not a happy person. Harboring such hatreds, nurturing them, expressing them, are not the symptoms of a content and happy life.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 10:02 AM   #53
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 16,965
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why? I don't see a direct connection between happiness and absence of hatred. How would it work? Adolf hates the Jews, so he must be unhappy?
Anyone who's seen a roving pack of ten-year-old girls chanting "CRY BABY CRY... CRY BABY CRY" at another child has seen how gleefully people can express hatred.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 10:04 AM   #54
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 16,965
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If dental work is on their mind, and they're experiencing hatred, they're not happy.

If the things you hate are on your mind a lot, then you are not a happy person.

If you spend a lot of time expressing or indulging your hatreds, then you are not a happy person.

Further, I would say that someone who harbors a hatred of Jews (for example) is probably not a happy person. Harboring such hatreds, nurturing them, expressing them, are not the symptoms of a content and happy life.
So what does this have to do with the forum?

At any rate, this appears to be hijacking the thread, and should probably be moved elsewhere?
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 10:12 AM   #55
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,891
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I know a lot of people on this forum are very clever, and might be described as intellectuals, but does that mean they cannot understand wisdom that is available to simple people. I think it was probably the Buddha who said,
"the mind is the great slayer of the real".
If there is a God he would hardly make it impossible to realize him without a high functioning intellect. Most religious people accept their beliefs on faith not by reasoning. Religious doctrines may serve only to pacify the mind so that a person can open their heart to spiritual experiences. It may not matter if the doctrine is absolutely true. A simple person of faith can experience much comfort and inner peace from believing in doctrines that sharper intellects find fault with.
So I put it to the forum that you may be outsmarting yourselves.
Sounds like a bull **** excuse to me. Faith is a con. It is straight up gullibility. You just have to believe. Stop using your mind. Just trust our horse **** story.

Is there anything that faith couldn't be used for to believe? And if that is true, couldn't you use faith and be wrong just as easy as you could be right? In fact, I'd argue that if used faith to believe most things, you'd end up believing a lot of stupid things.

Faith is not a pathway to truth. The question for each of us is do we want to believe what is true or what is comforting? No question, a lie can sometimes be comforting. Would you want your doctor to tell you that you have a deadly illness or not? I can see why some people wouldn't want to know.

Beliefs have consequences not just for the believer, but for everyone. Parents disown their children and vice versa because of their religious beliefs. I know parents who wouldn't take their son to a doctor and their son died as a result. Catholics have been entrusting their children to priests only to see some of their children become molested. Your donations to your church could be used for campaign against gays or birth control. Or you could strap a bomb to your chest. Or fly jets into buildings.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 10:26 AM   #56
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,935
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
At any rate, this appears to be hijacking the thread, and should probably be moved elsewhere?
The thread was started with ulterior motives. Can we even hijack something that the OP never intended to discuss?

If anything the "Are smart people happy" discussion is more in line with what the OP was pretending the topic was supposed to be then what he obviously wants the topic to be.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 31st July 2019 at 10:30 AM.
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 10:29 AM   #57
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,889
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Sounds like a bull **** excuse to me. Faith is a con. It is straight up gullibility. You just have to believe. Stop using your mind. Just trust our horse **** story.

Is there anything that faith couldn't be used for to believe? And if that is true, couldn't you use faith and be wrong just as easy as you could be right? In fact, I'd argue that if used faith to believe most things, you'd end up believing a lot of stupid things.

Faith is not a pathway to truth. The question for each of us is do we want to believe what is true or what is comforting? No question, a lie can sometimes be comforting. Would you want your doctor to tell you that you have a deadly illness or not? I can see why some people wouldn't want to know.

Beliefs have consequences not just for the believer, but for everyone. Parents disown their children and vice versa because of their religious beliefs. I know parents who wouldn't take their son to a doctor and their son died as a result. Catholics have been entrusting their children to priests only to see some of their children become molested. Your donations to your church could be used for campaign against gays or birth control. Or you could strap a bomb to your chest. Or fly jets into buildings.
Since it seems we cannot know for certain if there is a God by reasoning, we are only left with faith. It may be that there is a God and we, the human race, at our present level of evolution have constructed many myths about him that are not the truth.
It may be that many people of faith are misguided in their understanding of God even if there is one. I think we have seen religions evolve through history, and we no longer pray to a God of war like the Romans.
I am aware of occult and theosophical doctrines, and what can loosely be described as new age beliefs.
These seem to me to be progressive and moving away from the God of wrath of the Bible or Islam.
Maybe we just need a better God. That better God may even appeal to the intellect.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 10:31 AM   #58
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,935
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Since it seems we cannot know for certain if there is a God by reasoning, we are only left with faith.
For Zeus's non-existent butthole's sake not another one.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 10:41 AM   #59
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,239
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
For Zeus's non-existent butthole's sake not another one.
Point taken, but let me know whenever you start fighting against the image of intellectuals as cynical grumpy nihilists.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 10:41 AM   #60
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 18,934
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If dental work is on their mind, and they're experiencing hatred, they're not happy.

If the things you hate are on your mind a lot, then you are not a happy person.

If you spend a lot of time expressing or indulging your hatreds, then you are not a happy person.

Further, I would say that someone who harbors a hatred of Jews (for example) is probably not a happy person. Harboring such hatreds, nurturing them, expressing them, are not the symptoms of a content and happy life.
Have you not seen the joy at a Trump rally?

Do you not think that they are gleeful when they chant "lock her up" or "send them back"?

I think they find great joy in their hatred. It is their bond, it is what brings them together to celebrate.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 10:43 AM   #61
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,239
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
So what does this have to do with the forum?
It's full of smart, unhappy people.

Quote:
At any rate, this appears to be hijacking the thread, and should probably be moved elsewhere?
See? Unhappy.

Unhappy with the thread, unhappy with the thread drift. Probably unhappy with me in general, but the MA prohibits exploring that question.

And you're smart, too. Smart, and unhappy, and here. And you're probably not the only one.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 10:44 AM   #62
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,935
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Point taken, but let me know whenever you start fighting against the image of intellectuals as cynical grumpy nihilists.
If you think a snarky remark online means I'm a "cynical grumpy nihilist" so be it.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 10:45 AM   #63
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,929
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
...what?
The more intelligent you are the less likely you are to believe in a god.
But this is wrong...
The usual god-botherer drivel.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 10:46 AM   #64
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,935
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
The usual god-botherer drivel.
Not even a particularly new or original version of it.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 10:50 AM   #65
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,891
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Since it seems we cannot know for certain if there is a God by reasoning, we are only left with faith. It may be that there is a God and we, the human race, at our present level of evolution have constructed many myths about him that are not the truth.
It may be that many people of faith are misguided in their understanding of God even if there is one. I think we have seen religions evolve through history, and we no longer pray to a God of war like the Romans.
I am aware of occult and theosophical doctrines, and what can loosely be described as new age beliefs.
These seem to me to be progressive and moving away from the God of wrath of the Bible or Islam.
Maybe we just need a better God. That better God may even appeal to the intellect.
Certainty is a red herring. I'd argue that it is moronic to use faith ever. Move away from superstition and fairy tales. Embrace reality for a change.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 10:56 AM   #66
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,935
I can't help but notice I've never once seen a believer taken to task for being "certain" there is a God because they have faith.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 11:04 AM   #67
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,891
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Hard to say. I don't see a lot of "dumb" people here. Just a lot of smart people harboring a lot of hate.
WTH are you talking about? That's a lot of nonsense. I don't like religion. I don't like what it does to people. I don't like that it used to tell people how to and how not to live their lives.

But I don't hate Christians or Muslims or Sikhs or Catholics or even you Prestige. I can disagree with someone without hating them.

Trump OTOH I despise because he is a hateful lying POS working to tear this country apart.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 11:10 AM   #68
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,239
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Have you not seen the joy at a Trump rally?

Do you not think that they are gleeful when they chant "lock her up" or "send them back"?

I think they find great joy in their hatred. It is their bond, it is what brings them together to celebrate.
I have no opinion about that.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 11:11 AM   #69
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,935
Oh good Trump. Just what this conversation needed.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 11:12 AM   #70
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 16,965
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's full of smart, unhappy people.
And you know that they are unhappy, how?


Quote:
See? Unhappy.

Unhappy with the thread, unhappy with the thread drift. Probably unhappy with me in general, but the MA prohibits exploring that question.

And you're smart, too. Smart, and unhappy, and here. And you're probably not the only one.
So you can diagnose me as unhappy because I suggested that the thread might be off-topic and should perhaps be moved to another thread of its own? Well at least you had the decency to stop short of accusing me of "harboring a lot of hate".

By the way, I have a loving marriage and two children whom I absolutely adore. The fact that you think that I am unhappy (and by earlier implication, full of hate) simply because I asked you a question and suggested that this conversation may be better moved to a different thread tells me a lot more about you than you think you know about me. You appear to me to be engaging in a great deal of psychological projection.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 11:14 AM   #71
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,239
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If you think a snarky remark online means I'm a "cynical grumpy nihilist" so be it.
Bro, I'm referring to your entire body of work here, both short- and long-form.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 11:17 AM   #72
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,239
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
WTH are you talking about? That's a lot of nonsense. I don't like religion. I don't like what it does to people. I don't like that it used to tell people how to and how not to live their lives.
I guess I can see disliking something without being unhappy about it... Maybe?

Quote:
But I don't hate Christians or Muslims or Sikhs or Catholics or even you Prestige. I can disagree with someone without hating them.
Okay, sure. Not really seeing any unhappiness in this.

Quote:
Trump OTOH I despise because he is a hateful lying POS working to tear this country apart.
... And there it is.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 11:21 AM   #73
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,935
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Bro, I'm referring to your entire body of work here, both short- and long-form.
Oh... okay I get it.

You think how people interact with you is how happy they are.

Might want to take a few steps back and take in the bigger picture there.

You're... let me be charitable here and say hard to interact with. That doesn't make the people round you unhappy, it just means you aren't generally seeing people at their best.

Does that make things clearer... bro?
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 31st July 2019 at 11:23 AM.
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 11:24 AM   #74
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,889
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Certainty is a red herring. I'd argue that it is moronic to use faith ever. Move away from superstition and fairy tales. Embrace reality for a change.
So do tell us about reality. Can you define it? Because in my philosophy everything we perceive is an illusion. Everything can be reduced to energy.
I know nothing about quantum physics, but I know it makes nonsense of a mundane view of the world.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 11:26 AM   #75
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,935
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
So do tell us about reality. Can you define it? Because in my philosophy everything we perceive is an illusion. Everything can be reduced to energy.
I know nothing about quantum physics, but I know it makes nonsense of a mundane view of the world.
Of sod off with that self-defeating nonsense.

If everything is an illusion stop talking to people who you think are just figments of your imagination.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 11:27 AM   #76
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 50,797
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
For Zeus's non-existent butthole's sake not another one.
Wait...are you suggesting Zeus doesn't exist, or that he does exist but lacks a butthole? I expect a lot of people would say a god shouldn't have a buttholes because defecation is against their divine dignity (like the elves in Tolkien), but I think those people are forgetting that Greek gods really did a whole bunch of sex constantly and being experts and connoisseurs of sex they would most definitely involve buttholes.

I challenge the validity of your bizarre buttholeless pantheon, and am prepared to cite a lot of Greek myths and some specialized Tumblr pages in evidence.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 11:29 AM   #77
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 50,797
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh... okay I get it.

You think how people interact with you is how happy they are.

Might want to take a few steps back and take in the bigger picture there.

You're... let me be charitable here and say hard to interact with. That doesn't make the people round you unhappy, it just means you aren't generally seeing people at their best.

Does that make things clearer... bro?
A crabby bunny gets less hugs, is how Nietzsche would put it. Or my five year old niece. I get them confused.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 11:32 AM   #78
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,239
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
And you know that they are unhappy, how?
Ninja magic.

Quote:
So you can diagnose me as unhappy because I suggested that the thread might be off-topic and should perhaps be moved to another thread of its own? Well at least you had the decency to stop short of accusing me of "harboring a lot of hate".

By the way, I have a loving marriage and two children whom I absolutely adore. The fact that you think that I am unhappy (and by earlier implication, full of hate) simply because I asked you a question and suggested that this conversation may be better moved to a different thread tells me a lot more about you than you think you know about me. You appear to me to be engaging in a great deal of psychological projection.
And yet here you are.

Are you happy with how this is going? Are you going to look back on the effort you put in here today with a sense of contentment? Are you going to go to bed tonight, think of the time you spent in this thread, and say to yourself, in the words of our own applecorped, "time well spent"?

It sounds like you have a wonderful family. You could be spending time with them. You don't have to be here right now, defending your self-image against outrageous canards from inconsequential strangers.

And yet here you are.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 11:34 AM   #79
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,239
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh... okay I get it.

You think how people interact with you is how happy they are.

Might want to take a few steps back and take in the bigger picture there.

You're... let me be charitable here and say hard to interact with. That doesn't make the people round you unhappy, it just means you aren't generally seeing people at their best.

Does that make things clearer... bro?
You interact with a lot of people here besides me. You don't seem particularly happy in any of those interactions.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2019, 11:35 AM   #80
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 50,797
It's rather embarassing to be there when someone accidentally kicks the ball into their own goal, I find.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:15 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.