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Old 31st July 2019, 11:36 AM   #81
Foster Zygote
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Wait...are you suggesting Zeus doesn't exist, or that he does exist but lacks a butthole? I expect a lot of people would say a god shouldn't have a buttholes because defecation is against their divine dignity (like the elves in Tolkien), but I think those people are forgetting that Greek gods really did a whole bunch of sex constantly and being experts and connoisseurs of sex they would most definitely involve buttholes.

I challenge the validity of your bizarre buttholeless pantheon, and am prepared to cite a lot of Greek myths and some specialized Tumblr pages in evidence.
The DPRK once reported that Kim Jong-il did not defecate, but no clarification was offered as to whether he possessed a butt-hole and simply didn't use it in the typical way, or if he was a culinary cul-de-sac.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:36 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
So do tell us about reality. Can you define it? Because in my philosophy everything we perceive is an illusion. Everything can be reduced to energy.
I know nothing about quantum physics, but I know it makes nonsense of a mundane view of the world.
So you're a solipsist? How the hell do you cope? You do understand your talking babble?

We can never know that we don't actually live in the matrix. Sure, everything could be an illusion. I don't deny that.

We all live in our own reality. But there is something call outside confirmation and shared reality. Odds are they are going to put you away if your own reality diverges from the reality that the rest of us shares.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:37 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You interact with a lot of people here besides me. You don't seem particularly happy in any of those interactions.
Again I come here for the specific purpose of engaging Woo Slingers. It's cathartic.

It's like going up to someone pumping iron and claiming they don't look like a relaxed person.

Given the fact that roughly 1/4th of the people I engage with here are open trolls, I'm comfortable with my levels of anger.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:37 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Of sod off with that self-defeating nonsense.

If everything is an illusion stop talking to people who you think are just figments of your imagination.
Say what ! I am talking about everything being made of atomic particles, including our bodies. We experience an existence we term reality. But whatever reality is, it is nothing like what our senses convey. We experience things as solid when they are not.
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Last edited by Scorpion; 31st July 2019 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:38 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
But whatever reality is, it is nothing like what our senses convey
Gotcha. In my reality you're not here spouting of random nonsense.

Ahhh... much better.

Jesus Christ is there like a script for this routine? We get it, you smoked pot and watched the Matrix good for you.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:42 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Say what ! I am talking about everything being made of atomic particles, including our bodies. We experience an existence we term reality. But whatever reality is, it is nothing like what our senses convey. We experience things a solid when they are not.
We experience reality on a different plane than subatomic particles but that doesn't make it any less real.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:44 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Gotcha. In my reality you're not here spouting of random nonsense.

Ahhh... much better.

Jesus Christ is there like a script for this routine? We get it, you smoked pot and watched the Matrix good for you.
Must have been some good stuff.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:49 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Gotcha. In my reality you're not here spouting of random nonsense.

Ahhh... much better.

Jesus Christ is there like a script for this routine? We get it, you smoked pot and watched the Matrix good for you.
It's actually a childish misunderstanding and conflation of two separate legitimate (note that "legitimate" doesn't mean "necessarily true") philosophical positions: a Buddhistic (among many others) belief that the material world is illusion ("the world of red dust") and that spiritual enlightenment can bring one to the true, real world (possibly after death); and the nonreligious oldtimey Descartes, Spinoza, Hume, et al. proper philosophers' "problem of perception" which is that we are basically brains in jars and assume our senses are reporting the outside universe to us correctly, because we have no way if knowing if they aren't.

Neither position entails belief in any particular deity, and only the former carries any hint of a suggestion of how one should live one's life.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:51 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's actually a childish misunderstanding and conflation of two separate legitimate (note that "legitimate" doesn't mean "necessarily true") philosophical positions: a Buddhistic (among many others) belief that the material world is illusion ("the world of red dust") and that spiritual enlightenment can bring one to the true, real world (possibly after death); and the nonreligious oldtimey Descartes, Spinoza, Hume, et al. proper philosophers' "problem of perception" which is that we are basically brains in jars and assume our senses are reporting the outside universe to us correctly, because we have no way if knowing if they aren't.

Neither position entails belief in any particular deity, and only the former carries any hint of a suggestion of how one should live one's life.
Oh I'm fully aware of how little actual "Philosophy" the internet's on call Wise Old Man on the Mountain Cosplayers Society nonsense actually contains.

Descartes still ducked if you threw a rock at his head.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:51 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
We experience reality on a different plane than subatomic particles but that doesn't make it any less real.
Again with the ill considered word 'reality' You cannot define it, and you cannot really know if anyone else experiences the same things as you. If anything physics supports my view that we are in an illusion. If the nuclear forces were weaker, we would be able to walk through walls.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:52 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Again with the ill considered word 'reality' You cannot define it, and you cannot really know if anyone else experiences the same things as you. If anything physics supports my view that we are in an illusion. If the nuclear forces were weaker, we would be able to walk through walls.
"Throws rock at your head to see if you duck."
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:54 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh I'm fully aware of how little actual "Philosophy" the internet's on call Wise Old Man on the Mountain Cosplayers Society nonsense actually contains.

Descartes still ducked if you threw a rock at his head.
Descartes was a 17th century Frenchman, if you threw a rock at him he'd either challenge you to a duel or take you to his bed. Or both.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:56 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's actually a childish misunderstanding and conflation of two separate legitimate (note that "legitimate" doesn't mean "necessarily true") philosophical positions: a Buddhistic (among many others) belief that the material world is illusion ("the world of red dust") and that spiritual enlightenment can bring one to the true, real world (possibly after death); and the nonreligious oldtimey Descartes, Spinoza, Hume, et al. proper philosophers' "problem of perception" which is that we are basically brains in jars and assume our senses are reporting the outside universe to us correctly, because we have no way if knowing if they aren't.

Neither position entails belief in any particular deity, and only the former carries any hint of a suggestion of how one should live one's life.
This is one of those posts that shows us that TagicMonkey isn't just an accomplished smart-ass, but is also genuinely smart. And of course, therefor, deeply unhappy and filled with hate... But smart.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:01 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Throws rock at your head to see if you duck."
I am not saying the illusion is not convincing. If you are hit by a rock it will cause pain. But that pain is nothing but electrons flowing through our nerves to our brain and being interpreted as pain. I believe some yogis can overcome the pain message and not be effected by it. There were Buddhist monks in Vietnam who immolated themselves with petrol, and sat in the lotus position while they burned alive. As far as I could tell from some photos I saw, they did not roll around screaming like the rest of us would.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:07 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am not saying the illusion is not convincing. If you are hit by a rock it will cause pain. But that pain is nothing but electrons flowing through our nerves to our brain and being interpreted as pain. I believe some yogis can overcome the pain message and not be effected by it. There were Buddhist monks in Vietnam who immolated themselves with petrol, and sat in the lotus position while they burned alive. As far as I could tell from some photos I saw, they did not roll around screaming like the rest of us would.
Self-immolation as political protest seems the opposite of a conviction in the world being illusory.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:08 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am not saying the illusion is not convincing. If you are hit by a rock it will cause pain. But that pain is nothing but electrons flowing through our nerves to our brain and being interpreted as pain. I believe some yogis can overcome the pain message and not be effected by it. There were Buddhist monks in Vietnam who immolated themselves with petrol, and sat in the lotus position while they burned alive. As far as I could tell from some photos I saw, they did not roll around screaming like the rest of us would.
Oh this crap again. "It's not reality, it's just functionally identical to reality so I can live there all the time but pretend it's not there when ever I need some Woo."

You can't even muster up the intellectual honesty for solipsism, you're stuck at "Solipsism only when it's convenient for me."
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:12 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ninja magic.
In other words, you can't provide a real answer.


Quote:
And yet here you are.

Are you happy with how this is going? Are you going to look back on the effort you put in here today with a sense of contentment? Are you going to go to bed tonight, think of the time you spent in this thread, and say to yourself, in the words of our own applecorped, "time well spent"?
You seem to be seriously overestimating the importance of this exchange in my life. I am neither happy nor unhappy with its results. It is what it is. I simply asked you a question, and your response has told me all I needed to know.

Quote:
It sounds like you have a wonderful family. You could be spending time with them. You don't have to be here right now, defending your self-image against outrageous canards from inconsequential strangers.

And yet here you are.
And yet here I go.

I have spent time with my family today. Certainly far more than I've spent with you.

As I said, our brief exchange has told me all I need to know. I have no interest in further participating in your performance. You'll have to get that third nail in all by yourself.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:17 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Self-immolation as political protest seems the opposite of a conviction in the world being illusory.
And for most non-Buddhists, self-immolation involves rather more liquor and fireworks than conviction of any sort. Hence the rolling and screaming and riding to the ER in the back of a pickup truck with Florida plates.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:27 PM   #99
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Skimming this thread, I see a couple of issues that don't seem completely addressed.

One is of course the idea that there is a single thing called happiness, that we either have or don't. A person who thinks hard about things finds that the world is difficult and is often unhappy with how things are. For ninety years he is not always happy, but not always unhappy. Another person looks at the world, says **** it, takes dope, and is in a state of stuporous bliss until he overdoses and dies at twenty-five. I'm not sure he got the better deal.

Another is that the sample from which one deduces that clever or smart people are not happy may not be very useful. We're on a forum where people come often to piss and moan. Does this mean that the clever people are generally unhappy, or just that they know which buttons to push?

Another is that the cause of unhappiness cannot always be attributed to faults in the person suffering from it. It's true, for example, that a smart kid who is bullied at school will be unhappy, but the cure for this is not to make him as stupid as the bullies.

Peace of mind, comfort and satisfaction are indeed good things to feel, but I suspect that there's a qualitative difference between the sporadic happiness of, say, a research scientist or a poet or a saint, and the constant low-grade happiness of a fellow sitting on a park bench eating chocolates.

Of course, I'm probably unqualified for this discussion. I am, overall, a pretty happy guy. I enjoy my life and the world as it is and that, according to some, means I must be too dumb to understand the subtleties here.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:33 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Again with the ill considered word 'reality'.
As if we both wouldn't perceive the same things when confronted with it.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You cannot define it, and you cannot really know if anyone else experiences the same things as you. If anything physics supports my view that we are in an illusion. If the nuclear forces were weaker, we would be able to walk through walls.
And NO physics doesn't do that at all. Yes, if the nuclear forces were weaker we would be able to do that. But nuclear forces ARE NOT WEAK. In fact they are very strong. All you just proved was the eternal maxim that "if" is a condition contrary to fact.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:39 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am not saying the illusion is not convincing. If you are hit by a rock it will cause pain. But that pain is nothing but electrons flowing through our nerves to our brain and being interpreted as pain. I believe some yogis can overcome the pain message and not be effected by it. There were Buddhist monks in Vietnam who immolated themselves with petrol, and sat in the lotus position while they burned alive. As far as I could tell from some photos I saw, they did not roll around screaming like the rest of us would.
Sure, with great discipline we can control how our brains deal with electrons, but how do you get from there to the idea that the electrons and the nerves and the brain are illusory? The annals of martyrdom are filled with stories of spiritual discipline and triumph. Saint Lawrence, when burned alive on a giant griddle, is said to have joked to his tormentors that they should turn him over because he was done on one side. Attribute this as you will to transcendence, myth, or endorphins, but what have you said beyond the trivial oxymoron that reality isn't really real?

Sorry this post is a little curtailed. There's a huge thunderstorm overhead, and I'm shutting down for the sake of the modem.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:41 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Skimming this thread, I see a couple of issues that don't seem completely addressed.

One is of course the idea that there is a single thing called happiness, that we either have or don't.
I don't use the phrase "Life Changing" often. But about a year back a goddamn internet webcomic of all things really put my... default emotional stance into perspective.

The Oatmeal ran a comic called "How to be perfectly happy" and it opened with:

"I am not a happy person. When I tell people that they infer that I am unhappy. They assume my status is binary; either I'm a joyous triumph or a miserable wrench. They recognize no spectrum only two states of being, happy or unhappy. But I've never felt 'happy.' I've felt joy. I've felt bliss. But 'happy' implies permanence. It implies you have completed all the prerequisites and now get to sit atop your pile of happy forever."

and it had the line "I'm not happy because our definition of happy isn't very good, it's a monochromatic word used to rich, painful spectrum of human emotions."

https://theoatmeal.com/comics/unhappy
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:45 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
As if we both wouldn't perceive the same things when confronted with it.
Well I don't know if the nuclear forces are considered strong. I know gravity is considered weak.

As for perceiving the same things. I read somewhere that quantum physics says we cannot observe something without changing it. But I would have to consult a physicist about that. Maybe there are some on the forum.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:47 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Well I don't know if the nuclear forces are considered strong. I know gravity is considered weak.
You are trying to speak with a lot of authority for someone who doesn't know anything.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:48 PM   #105
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Well I don't know if the nuclear forces are considered strong. I know gravity is considered weak.

As for perceiving the same things. I read somewhere that quantum physics says we cannot observe something without changing it. But I would have to consult a physicist about that. Maybe there are some on the forum.
Really? You don't know if nuclear forces are very strong? What happens when we break the nuclear forces of atoms?
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Last edited by acbytesla; 31st July 2019 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:53 PM   #106
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I see we're dealing with a "Aw shucks I don't know anything about all this fancy science... but I am absolutely certain it is completely wrong" prebuilt characters.
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Old 31st July 2019, 01:02 PM   #107
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The weak nuclear force is the second weakest force, after gravity

The Strong Nuclear Force (also referred to as the strong force) is one of the four basic forces in nature (the others being gravity, the electromagnetic force, and the weak nuclear force). As its name implies, it is the strongest of the four. ... The protons must feel a repulsive force from the other neighboring protons
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Old 31st July 2019, 01:05 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't use the phrase "Life Changing" often. But about a year back a goddamn internet webcomic of all things really put my... default emotional stance into perspective.

The Oatmeal ran a comic called "How to be perfectly happy" and it opened with:

"I am not a happy person. When I tell people that they infer that I am unhappy. They assume my status is binary; either I'm a joyous triumph or a miserable wrench. They recognize no spectrum only two states of being, happy or unhappy. But I've never felt 'happy.' I've felt joy. I've felt bliss. But 'happy' implies permanence. It implies you have completed all the prerequisites and now get to sit atop your pile of happy forever."

and it had the line "I'm not happy because our definition of happy isn't very good, it's a monochromatic word used to rich, painful spectrum of human emotions."

https://theoatmeal.com/comics/unhappy
You beat me to it. I was thinking of posting that same thing, myself.
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Old 31st July 2019, 01:09 PM   #109
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So, I have a lego set.

Included in the set are the usual bricks and flats, as well as ramp pieces, clear pieces, and some wheels. And a motorized bit that runs with batteries.

I use this lego set to build a car. I can turn it own, and it moves under it's own power. It rolls.

According to Scorpion, my car is an illusion. I don't have a car, I have a collection of Lego blocks.

For that matter, cars don't exist, either. I don't drive to work in a Nissan Sentra; that's just an illusion. I have a collection of metal, plastic, and rubber parts with a few fluids mixed in.

For that matter, even his statement that we're all made of atoms is just an illusion. Atoms are made of electrons, neutrons, and protons, which are in turn made of quarks. So atoms are an illusion.

This is a patently ridiculous position to hold.

And they say scientists are overly reductionist.
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Old 31st July 2019, 01:09 PM   #110
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The weak nuclear force is the second weakest force, after gravity

The Strong Nuclear Force (also referred to as the strong force) is one of the four basic forces in nature (the others being gravity, the electromagnetic force, and the weak nuclear force). As its name implies, it is the strongest of the four. ... The protons must feel a repulsive force from the other neighboring protons
So what? You didn't address my question. What happens when we break a nuclear force?
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Old 31st July 2019, 01:23 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
So what? You didn't address my question. What happens when we break a nuclear force?
I am not sure if an atomic explosion is breaking the strong nuclear force as much as disintegrating the nucleus of atoms and causing these particles to collide with other atoms and disintegrate them too. I got the following quote by googling it.

The splitting of a uranium atom releases energy. This process is called “nuclear fission”, since the centre of an atom is called its nucleus. When a uranium atom splits it gives off more neutrons, which can then split more atoms, and so the energy level rapidly multiplies
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Old 31st July 2019, 01:56 PM   #112
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am not sure if an atomic explosion is breaking the strong nuclear force as much as disintegrating the nucleus of atoms and causing these particles to collide with other atoms and disintegrate them too. I got the following quote by googling it.

The splitting of a uranium atom releases energy. This process is called “nuclear fission”, since the centre of an atom is called its nucleus. When a uranium atom splits it gives off more neutrons, which can then split more atoms, and so the energy level rapidly multiplies
When you fire neutrons at fissile elements, (U233, U235, PU239) you break the strong nuclear force holding the atom together and huge amounts of energy is released and yet this is a tiny fraction of the energy contained in the nuclear forces that hold the atom together. The additional neutrons of the process it gives off is necessary to keep the reaction going. That should give you an idea just how strong this force is.

BTW, there are lots of elements that are fertile as opposed to fissile. Firing neutrons at them results in creating different elements. IE: fire neutrons at U238 it accepts the extra neutron and transforms into PU239 which is fissile.

You can't just wave away the nuclear forces as if they are nothing. That physicists refer to some forces to as weak and some as strong doesn't mean what you think it does. I had to refresh myself on this. They are two very different types of interactions. But it means little to beings that interact on a molecular level.
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Last edited by acbytesla; 31st July 2019 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 1st August 2019, 01:47 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh I'm fully aware of how little actual "Philosophy" the internet's on call Wise Old Man on the Mountain Cosplayers Society nonsense actually contains.

Descartes still ducked if you threw a rock at his head.
You shall not take Descarte's name in vain.
If you don't know what you're talking about, why are you talking?
"Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must remain silent," (Ludwig Wittgenstein).
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Old 1st August 2019, 01:57 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's actually a childish misunderstanding and conflation of two separate legitimate (note that "legitimate" doesn't mean "necessarily true") philosophical positions: a Buddhistic (among many others) belief that the material world is illusion ("the world of red dust") and that spiritual enlightenment can bring one to the true, real world (possibly after death); and the nonreligious oldtimey Descartes, Spinoza, Hume, et al. proper philosophers' "problem of perception" which is that we are basically brains in jars and assume our senses are reporting the outside universe to us correctly, because we have no way if knowing if they aren't.

Neither position entails belief in any particular deity, and only the former carries any hint of a suggestion of how one should live one's life.
The same positions of 18th century philosophers have been repeated by 20th century scientists. From Einstein's realism to Von Neumann's subjective idealism, passing through Bohr's phenomenalism. But all of them refer to the world of subatomic particles. Regarding the world of sensitive phenomena the laws of classical physics work quite well. So what is the real world? Probably both. Each of them at a different level of reality and scientific apparatus.

Therefore, to say that the world is illusion is an empty phrase. In neither case is there an illusion. The most that can be said is that the world as we grasp it can be a mixture of what the real world and what our instruments of knowledge impose. This would make Kant very happy, to whom it seems that our philosophical scientists ignore.

Because all this is philosophy, no matter how much our friend Morgue is attacked every time he hears the word.
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Old 1st August 2019, 01:58 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Have you not seen the joy at a Trump rally?

Do you not think that they are gleeful when they chant "lock her up" or "send them back"?

I think they find great joy in their hatred. It is their bond, it is what brings them together to celebrate.
Bluesjnrs law - thread trumped.
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Old 1st August 2019, 02:05 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
So do tell us about reality. Can you define it? Because in my philosophy everything we perceive is an illusion. Everything can be reduced to energy.
It is curious but I don't know anyone who has maintained that the world of the senses is illusion and has gone into a cage with a hungry tiger.
Maybe we can say that the tiger is a stripy energy that bites. Not illusory at all: it hurts.
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Old 1st August 2019, 03:40 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
The same positions of 18th century philosophers have been repeated by 20th century scientists. From Einstein's realism to Von Neumann's subjective idealism, passing through Bohr's phenomenalism. But all of them refer to the world of subatomic particles. Regarding the world of sensitive phenomena the laws of classical physics work quite well. So what is the real world? Probably both. Each of them at a different level of reality and scientific apparatus.

Therefore, to say that the world is illusion is an empty phrase. In neither case is there an illusion. The most that can be said is that the world as we grasp it can be a mixture of what the real world and what our instruments of knowledge impose. This would make Kant very happy, to whom it seems that our philosophical scientists ignore.

Because all this is philosophy, no matter how much our friend Morgue is attacked every time he hears the word.
No. Twentieth century physics is not philosophy, nobody has disproved Buddhism with science, and you are not wiser than Spinoza.
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Old 1st August 2019, 05:01 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
You shall not take Descarte's name in vain.
If you don't know what you're talking about, why are you talking?
"Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must remain silent," (Ludwig Wittgenstein).
I'll take whoever's name in vain I damn well please. Random dead philosophers are your Gods to worship before, not mine.

Your days of declaring yourself the arbitrator of what is and isn't "philosophy" are long gone.
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Old 1st August 2019, 05:12 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'll take whoever's name in vain I damn well please. Random dead philosophers are your Gods to worship before, not mine.

Your days of declaring yourself the arbitrator of what is and isn't "philosophy" are long gone.
You know how some people take Intro to Psychology class as a freshman and then think they can analyze everyone? The same thing happens with Intro to Philosophy: every year millions of undergraduates emerge confident they are deep thinkers, fully equal to the people whose names they'll continually drop until they grow out of it.
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Old 1st August 2019, 06:36 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Say what ! I am talking about everything being made of atomic particles, including our bodies. We experience an existence we term reality. But whatever reality is, it is nothing like what our senses convey. We experience things as solid when they are not.
Finding out more about the nature of solidity does not make things any less solid.
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