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Old 8th August 2019, 12:27 PM   #401
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
That is a choice the UK is making. The GFA is only relevant to northern ireland. It is purely an internal UK decision to extend the backstop to the whole of the UK.


Can you try to justify that assertion?
1) The democratic failure in the backstop is the same whether it is affecting part of whole of the UK. The concept that there should be an internal border within the UK would be a huge provocation to the Unionist population. Avoiding a border on land might avoid provoking nationalists but having an internal border would provoke unionists. It would be an extraordinary thing to have passport controls and customs to move from one part of the UK to another. This is certainly not what those who voted for Brexit voted for, nor did they vote for one part of the UK population be subject the laws and judgement of a foreign institution with no democratic representation. Would freedom of movement apply only to NI residents? Would NI residents be required to have a residents id card? (Passports do not give your address and would not identify if a British Citizen was NI resident or not. There might be British residents who would not be allowed to travel freely within the UK.

2) Well if you are to allow free movement across the land border with the EU and Ireland joined the Schengen area the UK would not be allowed to have passport control on that border so would be de facto in the Schengen area.
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Old 8th August 2019, 12:44 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
1) The democratic failure in the backstop is the same whether it is affecting part of whole of the UK. The concept that there should be an internal border within the UK would be a huge provocation to the Unionist population. Avoiding a border on land might avoid provoking nationalists but having an internal border would provoke unionists. It would be an extraordinary thing to have passport controls and customs to move from one part of the UK to another. This is certainly not what those who voted for Brexit voted for, nor did they vote for one part of the UK population be subject the laws and judgement of a foreign institution with no democratic representation. Would freedom of movement apply only to NI residents? Would NI residents be required to have a residents id card? (Passports do not give your address and would not identify if a British Citizen was NI resident or not. There might be British residents who would not be allowed to travel freely within the UK.

2) Well if you are to allow free movement across the land border with the EU and Ireland joined the Schengen area the UK would not be allowed to have passport control on that border so would be de facto in the Schengen area.

1) Yes, it's hard isn't it. Perhaps the UK should have considered these issues before saying it would leave the EU. The fact that the UK has made two mutually incompatible commitments is their problem to solve.


2) Nonsense, the UK outside the EU is a sovereign state and can protect it's borders. It would need to rescind the Good Friday Agreement to do it, and would have to live with the consequences of that, but life as a free independent country comes with costs too.
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Old 8th August 2019, 01:25 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
1) Yes, it's hard isn't it. Perhaps the UK should have considered these issues before saying it would leave the EU. The fact that the UK has made two mutually incompatible commitments is their problem to solve.
Note that it wouldn't have been too much of a problem had the Conservative party managed to gain a large majority of seats in parliament, instead of barely having a majority dependent on the good will of the DUP.

This has also made the likelihood of them coming to a compromise with Labour incredibly unlikely because of the small majority the government has, allowing the Brexiter's to scuttle any serious talks by threatening to quit over the compromises that would need to be made.
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Old 8th August 2019, 01:26 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
1) The democratic failure in the backstop is the same whether it is affecting part of whole of the UK. The concept that there should be an internal border within the UK would be a huge provocation to the Unionist population. Avoiding a border on land might avoid provoking nationalists but having an internal border would provoke unionists. It would be an extraordinary thing to have passport controls and customs to move from one part of the UK to another. This is certainly not what those who voted for Brexit voted for, nor did they vote for one part of the UK population be subject the laws and judgement of a foreign institution with no democratic representation.
Yep they voted for a hard Irish Border. Of course it does violate the whole ""close cooperation between their countries as friendly neighbours and as partners in the European Union" " Part of the GFA. And the previous years of laws going back to the founding of the irish republic about not having customs checks and immigration and such, all of which got torn up by brexit.
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Old 8th August 2019, 01:35 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
1) The democratic failure in the backstop is the same whether it is affecting part of whole of the UK.
There has been some talk about giving NI representation in the parliament. If that had been a serious concern that could have been negotiated. But it's a phony argument. Has anyone made it when the free port idea was floated? No.

Quote:
The concept that there should be an internal border within the UK would be a huge provocation to the Unionist population. Avoiding a border on land might avoid provoking nationalists but having an internal border would provoke unionists.
It's nice that we get to a real issue: Die-hard unionists who see a welcome chance to undo the GFA.

Quote:
It would be an extraordinary thing to have passport controls and customs to move from one part of the UK to another.
I don't see why the UK would have to institute passport checks. Of course, identity checks are not unusual on inland flights and probably common for ferries.

Quote:
Would freedom of movement apply only to NI residents?
Freedom of movement is a right of EU citizens.

Quote:
2) Well if you are to allow free movement across the land border with the EU and Ireland joined the Schengen area the UK would not be allowed to have passport control on that border so would be de facto in the Schengen area.
You have not substantiated your assertion. I will assume that it is false.
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Old 8th August 2019, 01:51 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Nonesense, of course it can - UK can quit the customs union and is free to make whatever trade deals with whomever the moment it comes up with an Irish border solution that does not involve a border between NI and Ireland.

The only viable solution thus far is a customs border in the Irish sea. The first proposal of the EU was a backstop that puts a customs border in the Irish sea. I think I can see how this could all work out in the end.



Of course it doesn't. A border poll upon which NI secedes from UK and joins Ireland, perhaps after a few years as an independent state to sort the technical details out, is a viable solution and in line with letter and spirit of GFA.

Expect a new Hadrian wall next, but manned from the north.

McHrozni

Yup, Ulster would get a few guarantees on "Local Rule" to keep the Orangemen Happy.
Which, Ironically enough, was what proposed way back in 1922.
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Old 8th August 2019, 01:52 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
According to the UK Prime Minister, compromise is a one way street...



Of course there's no need for the UK to assess any of its red lines - only foreigners need to do that

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49280689
Boris is under the delusion this is the Ninteenth Century, Victoria is still on the Throne, and the UK is still an economic superpower.
I would not be surprised if the feeling is growing in the EU of "the hell with Prefidious Albion.We are better off without them anyway
.
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Old 8th August 2019, 02:05 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
1) The democratic failure in the backstop is the same whether it is affecting part of whole of the UK. The concept that there should be an internal border within the UK
It's an external border. Ireland is not in any part of the UK.

Wow. I am flabbergasted that you somehow think that the Republic of Ireland is part of the UK. Newsflash: Hasn't been so for almost a century. I suppose you are next going to claim that the USA is merely a UK territory.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
would be a huge provocation to the Unionist population. Avoiding a border on land might avoid provoking nationalists but having an internal border would provoke unionists. It would be an extraordinary thing to have passport controls and customs to move from one part of the UK to another.
Why? It's their border.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
This is certainly not what those who voted for Brexit voted for, nor did they vote for one part of the UK population be subject the laws and judgement of a foreign institution with no democratic representation.
What? Wrong.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Would freedom of movement apply only to NI residents?
Nope.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Would NI residents be required to have a residents id card? (Passports do not give your address and would not identify if a British Citizen was NI resident or not. There might be British residents who would not be allowed to travel freely within the UK.
Nope. None of that is remotely on this planet.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
2) Well if you are to allow free movement across the land border with the EU and Ireland joined the Schengen area the UK would not be allowed to have passport control on that border so would be de facto in the Schengen area.
Not how Schengen works and not what the UK claims it wants. Now what? EU <> Schengen. Try to grok that.
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Old 8th August 2019, 02:18 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Re 2) No The GFA does not say anything about the border other than it should be demilitarised; it would not be in contravention to the GFA.
Oh okay, thanks. It certainly wouldn't be very popular with either the Irish or Northern Irish to build such infrastructure though. I wonder who they would get to build it, and who would pay the builders? The builders would most likely demand danger money.
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Old 8th August 2019, 02:30 PM   #410
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3 years on and its the same tired arguments. Brexiteers cant comprehend that leave means leave, that the backstop was the UKs proposal to not have to deal with the actual consequences of actually leaving, and that a backstop that is time limited isn't a backstop at all.

In any case the whole thing is a red herring because the ERG still wouldn't vote for it if the backstop was removed because they have ulterior motives.
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Old 8th August 2019, 02:38 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Oh okay, thanks. It certainly wouldn't be very popular with either the Irish or Northern Irish to build such infrastructure though. I wonder who they would get to build it, and who would pay the builders? The builders would most likely demand danger money.
That would be the UK's problem.
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Old 8th August 2019, 04:09 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
According to the UK Prime Minister, compromise is a one way street...



Of course there's no need for the UK to assess any of its red lines - only foreigners need to do that

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49280689

What compromise is Boris after? What deal is he offering?
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Old 8th August 2019, 11:44 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
What compromise is Boris after? What deal is he offering?
It's not clear. Maybe it's the Withdrawal Agreement without the backstop - but who knows ?

Of course he may have gone back to the original Brexiteer "deal" of "everything they want from EU membership without anything they don't want" (assuming that there's agreement among Brexiteers about what that comprises)


edited to add......

As I've mentioned a couple of times in this thread, those who know Boris Johnson say that he's not a man for planning so IMO it's unlikely that he has a deal in mind. Instead, I think he expects that the EU will come back to the UK with a series of increasingly better (for the UK) deals until there's one he feels is good enough - i.e. the EU has to do all the heavy lifting to deliver the deal that the Brexiteers want.

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Old 8th August 2019, 11:53 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
What compromise is Boris after? What deal is he offering?

He isnít going to say until the EU have said theyíll accept it.
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Old 9th August 2019, 12:49 AM   #415
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Once again, there is nothing about the backstop that prevents the government of the time doing precisely what our current government is aiming to do at the end of October.

That is, we can unilaterally withdraw from the backstop if we want to fall out of all trade agreements with the EU, ie fall back to WTO terms.

There is absolutely nothing the EU can do to prevent that.

So the question is, if No Deal is OK now, then why is the backstop an issue, since it won't kick in for over a year anyway, and we can always withdraw into a No Deal situation whenever we wanted.

So...can someone show me exactly where in the backstop terms that is not allowed?
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Old 9th August 2019, 12:54 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Once again, there is nothing about the backstop that prevents the government of the time doing precisely what our current government is aiming to do at the end of October.

That is, we can unilaterally withdraw from the backstop if we want to fall out of all trade agreements with the EU, ie fall back to WTO terms.

There is absolutely nothing the EU can do to prevent that.

So the question is, if No Deal is OK now, then why is the backstop an issue, since it won't kick in for over a year anyway, and we can always withdraw into a No Deal situation whenever we wanted.

So...can someone show me exactly where in the backstop terms that is not allowed?
Is the real problem with the backstop that it's perceived that it's something that EU has foisted on the UK ?

For the Conservatives, and in particular the ERG, any deal must appear to be 100% on the UK's terms.
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Old 9th August 2019, 01:11 AM   #417
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The real problem is that it calls the ERG bluff since it means they have to get a working solution up, and highlights that it isn't a simple thing.

There are elements there that don't want any deal whatsoever, and the backstop is the thing they've targeted. If it weren't there then they'd find something else.
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Old 9th August 2019, 01:30 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It certainly wouldn't be very popular with either the Irish or Northern Irish to build such infrastructure though. I wonder who they would get to build it, and who would pay the builders? The builders would most likely demand danger money.
If we leave with no deal, we'll get to find out pretty quickly, because there'll be no alternative to a hard border then. The whole point of the backstop was not to tie the UK into EU rules indefinitely, but to prevent a new asymmetric war over the Irish border.

Dave
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Old 9th August 2019, 01:51 AM   #419
ceptimus
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Once again, there is nothing about the backstop that prevents the government of the time doing precisely what our current government is aiming to do at the end of October.

That is, we can unilaterally withdraw from the backstop if we want to fall out of all trade agreements with the EU, ie fall back to WTO terms.

There is absolutely nothing the EU can do to prevent that.
Fullfact.org disagrees with your assertion https://fullfact.org/europe/irish-backstop/


Originally Posted by fullfact.org
However the legal advice also said that, if no bad faith on the EUís part could be proven, the instrument didnít reduce the likelihood that the UK could be kept in the backstop.
In practice this meant the UK could not unilaterally leave the backstop in a scenario where an impasse had been reached between the UK and the EU, not through any demonstrable failure by either party, but simply because of ďintractable differences.Ē
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Old 9th August 2019, 01:57 AM   #420
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Considering the PM has quite happily talked about not paying a penny to the EU in the event of a No Deal, then there is nothing preventing walking away from the backstop.
Both are equally "illegal" under the terms of various agreements.
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Old 9th August 2019, 02:32 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Fullfact.org disagrees with your assertion https://fullfact.org/europe/irish-backstop/
Do quote the context, dear:

In the opinion of the Attorney General (the government’s chief legal advisor), this instrument reduced the likelihood that the UK would be kept in the backstop against its will if the EU was blocking negotiations over the future relationship arrangements in bad faith.

In other words, if the Irish border solution is possible, there is no reason to fear the evil EU keeping poor little UK in the customs union any longer than necessary. Indeed, if the solution is 'easy', as the vermin have been repeating ad nauseam for a solid year, your own source states there's no reason to fear it will ever be needed.

If that's not true and it's really a problem that can't be solved without either a UK-wide customs union or else a customs border in the Irish sea on the other hand change that.

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Old 9th August 2019, 02:48 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Do quote the context, dear:

In the opinion of the Attorney General (the governmentís chief legal advisor), this instrument reduced the likelihood that the UK would be kept in the backstop against its will if the EU was blocking negotiations over the future relationship arrangements in bad faith.

In other words, if the Irish border solution is possible, there is no reason to fear the evil EU keeping poor little UK in the customs union any longer than necessary. Indeed, if the solution is 'easy', as the vermin have been repeating ad nauseam for a solid year, your own source states there's no reason to fear it will ever be needed.

If that's not true and it's really a problem that can't be solved without either a UK-wide customs union or else a customs border in the Irish sea on the other hand change that.

McHrozni
Ceptimus Deceitfully modifying quotes?
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Old 9th August 2019, 02:53 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Fullfact.org disagrees with your assertion https://fullfact.org/europe/irish-backstop/
What would you like to see in place for the Irish border? No one here can tell me what pro-brexit people want.
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:00 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Do quote the context, dear:
Hello dear.


I gave the link for full context and quoted the most important part: the conclusion of the government's senior legal advisor: the instrument didnít reduce the likelihood that the UK could be kept in the backstop.
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:02 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Ceptimus Deceitfully modifying quotes?
Absolutely not. Please retract that lying claim. I quoted from the linked page exactly.
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:06 AM   #426
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Of course a backstop would also not be necessary if the UK were to agree that they will ensure no smuggling will occur by not importing things that do not break EU regulations.
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:06 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Hello dear.


I gave the link for full context and quoted the most important part: the conclusion of the government's senior legal advisor: the instrument didnít reduce the likelihood that the UK could be kept in the backstop.
You're doing it again. The actual conclusion was that the instrument could reduce the likelihood that the UK could be kept in the backstop in case of proven bad faith by the EU, but not if bad faith could not be proven. Overall, if there are two possibilities, A and B, and the instrument reduces the probability in case A but does not affect it in case B, then overall the probability is reduced.

Now, how about telling us what you would like the Irish border to look like post-Brexit?

Dave
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:06 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
What would you like to see in place for the Irish border? No one here can tell me what pro-brexit people want.
As far as I can tell they want no border but would like (Ireland ?) to ensure that EU citizens don't cross over illegally into Northern Ireland and they want limited (or no) inspections on UK goods crossing into the EU.
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:07 AM   #429
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
What would you like to see in place for the Irish border? No one here can tell me what pro-brexit people want.
Brexiteers dont answer questions.
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:10 AM   #430
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
As far as I can tell they want no border but would like (Ireland ?) to ensure that EU citizens don't cross over illegally into Northern Ireland and they want limited (or no) inspections on UK goods crossing into the EU.
Sometimes I wonder if they actually want to keep the back door open so they can get people in to exploit without proper documentation. That seemz to be the right wing MO.
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:14 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Now, how about telling us what you would like the Irish border to look like post-Brexit?

Dave
I've explained this before. I would like the Irish border to look exactly the same post-Brexit as it does now. If the Irish or the EU insist on modifying the border though, that's up to them - and they will have to pay for the work.
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:15 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Sometimes I wonder if they actually want to keep the back door open so they can get people in to exploit without proper documentation. That seemz to be the right wing MO.
I tend to agree. The sweet spot for the right wing is to have plausible deniability w.r.t. illegal workers, keep legal immigration low (after all don't want them to get citizenship and start voting now) and keep illegals in a state of fear so they are less likely to demand decent wages and/or approach the authorities if they are mistreated.
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:24 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I gave the link for full context and quoted the most important part: the conclusion of the government's senior legal advisor: the instrument didnít reduce the likelihood that the UK could be kept in the backstop.
IF - and only IF - there was no bad faith from the EU. Brexiteers claim EU will keep UK in the backstop by negotiating in bad faith. Your quite is not the most important part but the most irrelevant part of the finding.

I hope this helps. Well, not really, I realize it won't, but I'm saying it anyway.

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Old 9th August 2019, 03:24 AM   #434
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I've explained this before. I would like the Irish border to look exactly the same post-Brexit as it does now. If the Irish or the EU insist on modifying the border though, that's up to them - and they will have to pay for the work.
So you want nothing to prevent illegal immigrants crossing the Irish border, or EU suppliers using it to dump cheap goods into the UK without paying any tarriffs we impose?

But of course that's a classic and consistent Brexiteer position: we want to get exactly what we demand, and whatever problems we cause other people are their own affair and nothing to do with us.

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Old 9th August 2019, 03:34 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I don't think you understand.
Heavy irony.

Quote:
It's complicated isn't it?
Even heavier irony.
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:36 AM   #436
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
OK it was an attempt at hyperbole. The point I was trying to make was that the backstop ties the UK into the EU decisions in the future, with no participation in the decision making mechanism. In essence it appears to require the UK to remain functionally part of the EU, but with no political participation. If Ireland changes its status with regards to Schengen, then the UK would have to do so. The UK would be subject to EU laws and the ECJ, as they are now and as they become in the future. With no equivalent to article 50, it is the Hotel California option. This is certainly not what people who voted for Brexit wanted.
Neither is crashing out without a deal.
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:43 AM   #437
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
As far as I can tell they want no border but would like (Ireland ?) to ensure that EU citizens don't cross over illegally into Northern Ireland and they want limited (or no) inspections on UK goods crossing into the EU.
Where is Spike Milligan when you want him?
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:44 AM   #438
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I've explained this before. I would like the Irish border to look exactly the same post-Brexit as it does now. If the Irish or the EU insist on modifying the border though, that's up to them - and they will have to pay for the work.
That means anyone from the EU can enter the UK without passing any UK customs or checks. You are really happy with EU citizens having an unchallenged access to the UK?
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:46 AM   #439
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I've explained this before. I would like the Irish border to look exactly the same post-Brexit as it does now. If the Irish or the EU insist on modifying the border though, that's up to them - and they will have to pay for the work.
NO, NO, NO, "we" voted Brexit because we all knew exactly what it meant, and it meant taking control of our own borders and not letting anyone or anything in that we don't like.

We must have control over everything that enters our country.
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:46 AM   #440
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Neither is crashing out without a deal.
Oh come now, the Leave campaign was clear that this was always an option, possibly even the preferred option. The fact that there is no evidence for this is merely an indication that Remainers have managed to purge all media references
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