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Old 15th August 2019, 09:30 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Would quantum physics have anything to do with it?
Please explain quantum physics so we can evaluate it.
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Old 15th August 2019, 09:44 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Would quantum physics have anything to do with it?

Only if you can show us the maths that shows it does.
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Old 15th August 2019, 09:46 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Pseudo-skeptics / skeptics with a closed mind.
I knew it'd come to that at some point. You woo-woos are all the same.

Having an open mind doesn't mean you accept everything without evidence. In fact it's about accepting evidence, something you haven't provided. You've posted a lot of words but nothing that purports to show the existence of what you claim exists.

Quote:
When a pseudo-skeptic receives the information - say, for example, the scientific proof for the afterlife - that is fundamentally inconsistent with his ingrained beliefs, the pseudo-skeptic tries to rationalize his beliefs to reduce and compensate for the intense anguish.
Keep telling yourself that; that those who request evidence are just big meanies who refuse to accept your childish beliefs.

Nobody is fooled, you know? Everybody here but you understands that the fundamental problem in this thread is that you have no evidence.
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Old 15th August 2019, 09:49 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
In the future, can religions be based on empirical evidence?

I doubt it. They never have have been so far.
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Old 15th August 2019, 09:50 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I want to understand what kind of evidence you require? I want a clarification!
No you don't. You're stalling because you have no evidence of any kind. You've been asked to provide some evidence of any nature whatsoever and you've failed at even that task.

Quote:
I have a lot of original rationalist evidence ... would you accept it?
Well, we'll never know, will we?

Quote:
but science is not infallible!
That is both misleading and completely irrelevant.

Quote:
Would near death experience not be empirical evidence?
If I stub my toe, is it evidence that an invisible troll swung its little hammer at it?

Quote:
I believe in the afterlife because I am an Rationalist. Empirical evidence does not yet exist!
That's a contradiction.
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Old 15th August 2019, 09:52 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Plus why is the OP title shouting at me? Is Hamlet into thrash metal or punk or something?

Nope, skinhead (not the racist type) : http://web.mit.edu/johanna/Public/skinhead.hamlet
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Old 15th August 2019, 09:52 AM   #207
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Quantum physics is something people don't understand. That's why it can be used to manipulate them into believing into something.
If you'd say "this double pulley is able to lift weight using half the force; thus there is afterlife" it would be silly. Yet argument by "quantum physics" is exactly the same.
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Old 15th August 2019, 09:52 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Would quantum physics have anything to do with it?
Ah, another statistical certainty. Again, you guys are all the same. You just have to go into quantum nonsense.

No. Quantum physics has nothing to do with any of the things you think it has to do with.
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Old 15th August 2019, 09:59 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Would quantum physics have anything to do with it?
Would quantum physics have anything to do with what, exactly?

Ricardo, you're all over the place. Claiming to have evidence, claiming not to have evidence, asking questions about evidence you won't provide, accusing people of being pseudo-skeptics who are close minded against your beliefs, wondering what religions might do in the future, this vague question, etc.

Is there an argument or evidence you want to actually put forth and actually defend?

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Old 15th August 2019, 10:03 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
Ricardo, you're all over the place. Claiming to have evidence, claiming not to have evidence, asking questions about evidence you won't provide, accusing people of being pseudo-skeptics who are close minded against your beliefs, wondering what religions might do in the future, this vague question, etc.
He's also asked about why we don't believe in god and then said that his claims had nothing to do with god.
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Old 15th August 2019, 10:09 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
He's also asked about why we don't believe in god and then said that his claims had nothing to do with god.
I can't help but interpret his posts as being examples of unclear thought and not him merely doing a poor job trying to communicate something with us.

His posts are all over the place and inconsistent because his thoughts on the matter are all over the place and inconsistent.
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Old 15th August 2019, 10:11 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
I can't help but interpret his posts as being examples of unclear thought and not him merely doing a poor job trying to communicate something with us.
There's another possibility...
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Old 15th August 2019, 10:18 AM   #213
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He's like a younger, more energetic Jabba.
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Old 15th August 2019, 10:20 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
I can't help but interpret his posts as being examples of unclear thought and not him merely doing a poor job trying to communicate something with us.

His posts are all over the place and inconsistent because his thoughts on the matter are all over the place and inconsistent.

One of the reasons that his posts are inconsistent is that some are written by him while others are copied and pasted from elsewhere.
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Old 15th August 2019, 10:30 AM   #215
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Ricardo... the charge of being closed minded is often hurled at skeptics, most often by people whose minds are entirely closed to the possibility that they are wrong about their beliefs. NDEs, OBEs etc have been discussed many times in many flavors on this forum, often with proponent offering up “studies” backing up their claims. Frequently the “studies” are shown to be highly questionable and reasons why they are questionable are offered, resulting in the proponent whining that skeptics minds are closed. So, Ricardo... is your mind open to the possibility that consciousness is a property of a functioning brain, and not something that exists separately?
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Old 15th August 2019, 10:53 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
He's like a younger, more energetic Jabba.
Yet he's already befuddled.
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:01 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yet he's already befuddled.
I don't believe in spirits anymore ... skeptics have convinced me ... I'm not against skeptics ... I'm against pseudo-skeptics got it? I'm not calling anyone here a pseudo-skeptic!
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:03 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I don't believe in spirits anymore ... skeptics have convinced me ...
I don't believe you.

You don't take well to your beliefs not being immediately accepted, do you?
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:03 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
Ricardo... the charge of being closed minded is often hurled at skeptics, most often by people whose minds are entirely closed to the possibility that they are wrong about their beliefs. NDEs, OBEs etc have been discussed many times in many flavors on this forum, often with proponent offering up “studies” backing up their claims. Frequently the “studies” are shown to be highly questionable and reasons why they are questionable are offered, resulting in the proponent whining that skeptics minds are closed. So, Ricardo... is your mind open to the possibility that consciousness is a property of a functioning brain, and not something that exists separately?
YES ... I'm skeptical now ... could you point me to sites or books about skepticism and especially about pseudo-skepticism? thank you
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:04 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't believe you.

You don't take well to your beliefs not being immediately accepted, do you?
because ? I am convinced!
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:07 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
because ? I am convinced!
Prove it. Explain what, specifically, changed your mind, and how. Because oddly, your claims of changing said mind bear a striking ressemblance to your ramblings about spirits and quantum physics.
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:07 AM   #222
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The www is loaded with papers written by men and women with diplomas. Each has to be read, fully understood and then balanced against equal or similar studies to verify credibility.

Did this person do the research right, no proverbial finger on the scale or other tricks to ensure the results?
Did anyone else independently verify it can be repeated to a equal or similar result?
In the case of stuff like religious scripture type miracles is it even possible to get past thought experiments and into, well, something anyone could measure? Some place or plane we can detect and test somehow?

Why not is a valid question to ask too. If possibly billions of souls have gone to an afterlife of any sort why cannot we detect such a common occurrence?

I believe my sandals are black.

They are made from bits of car tires, car tires are usually black.
The color is consistent with other black objects.
Everyone around me also seems to verify they are black.

Thus there is little room for doubt.

Apply these types of statements to a faith based promise. I can believe but what can I compare it to to say it is different or similar? If my most credible witnesses are a priest, a deacon and three old ladies that go to mass daily will that pass as credible to near everyone? Can I show the world anything at all that will instantly make them doubt contrary ideas?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. You picked a big one here.
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:08 AM   #223
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this avatar! Are you a Satanist? BELZ
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:10 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
this avatar! Are you a Satanist? BELZ
How about you answer me first?
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:13 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How about you answer me first?
I got tired ... I want to change my beliefs just that! Quantum physics was just a hypothesis ok ... I don't want to talk about my old beliefs anymore .. recommend me a book on skepticism!
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:16 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I got tired ... I want to change my beliefs just that!
I don't believe you.

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I don't want to talk about my old beliefs anymore .. recommend me a book on skepticism!
Skepticism is an outlook, not a recipe.
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:22 AM   #227
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Belz, excuse me for jumping in on a question asked to you by Ricardo.


Ricardo, isn't Satan in the bible a creation of the god of the bible?


If Belz (among others) does not believe in that god, why would he/she believe in Satan?
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:23 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
Belz, excuse me for jumping in on a question asked to you by Ricardo.


Ricardo, isn't the devil of the bible a creation of the god of the bible?



If Belz (among others) does not believe in that god, why would he/she believe in taht devil?
In fact I stopped believing in the devil before I ditched the rest of the rotten nonsense.
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:23 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
YES ... I'm skeptical now ... could you point me to sites or books about skepticism and especially about pseudo-skepticism? thank you
Perhaps you could search this forum for the topics you are interested in, and do some reading.* Lots of links have been provided over the years, but if you are interested in pseudo-skepticism, I have my doubts that you are seriously skeptical now. (It's generally a term used by believers to disparage skeptics for not having an open mind.)

*Really: do some reading. Then do some more.
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Old 15th August 2019, 12:48 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I don't believe in spirits anymore ... skeptics have convinced me
Nobody believes that. Nobody has actually argued much against the existence of spirits (or God or the afterlife or whatever it is you think you're arguing for or against, I'm not entirely sure and you don't seem to sure either). They've just repeatedly asked you for evidence.

So you've abandoned your beliefs just because you were asked a whole bunch of times for evidence for your beliefs?

Quote:
I'm not calling anyone here a pseudo-skeptic!
So who were your earlier wall-of-text rants about psuedo-skepticism aimed at then? Pseudo-skepticism is a term associated with woo-slingers, fundies, and cranks of all sorts. Using the term and asking for a book recommendations about it betray that you clearly don't believe what you're saying and this is some odd game where you now pretend to be a skeptic. Badly. For some reason.
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Old 15th August 2019, 01:26 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
Perhaps you could search this forum for the topics you are interested in, and do some reading.* Lots of links have been provided over the years, but if you are interested in pseudo-skepticism, I have my doubts that you are seriously skeptical now. (It's generally a term used by believers to disparage skeptics for not having an open mind.)

*Really: do some reading. Then do some more.
What do you think ...http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Contents.htm
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Old 15th August 2019, 01:43 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Utter tosh. You haven’t bothered to search this site for such topics. They’ve been discussed.
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Old 15th August 2019, 03:09 PM   #233
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The empirical evidence or evidence that you require would be from the scientific community.
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Old 15th August 2019, 03:10 PM   #234
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Only the evidence of the scientific community has value?
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Old 15th August 2019, 03:49 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Only the evidence of the scientific community has value?

More and more of the same drivel.

Science is not something exclusive to a "scientific community", it is a method we all use. Even animals use it to some extent. All that is needed is a functioning brain, and observation, to make use of this method.

The limited brain function can be a problem for some.
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Old 15th August 2019, 03:57 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
We live, think, act, that is positive; we die, and that's no less right. Leaving Earth, where are we going? What will we become? Will we be better or worse? Will we be or won't we? To be or not to be, such is the alternative; it is forever or never; it is all or nothing: either we will live forever, or it will all end without return. It's well worth thinking about.
Incidentally, I touched a dead man this morning. He had died about 12 hours earlier and still lay in the bed where he had died at the age of 75. I can report to you that he felt pretty cool (temperature-wise!) and was bereft of life. There are no emotions, no knowledge, no insight and no cognition left. He is dead. In my opinion, he is now somewhat better off than he was in the last days of his life, when his remaining health was in its final deterioration, and he lost more and more abilities and instead developed more and more sores, wounds and other things that made him miserable.

Now he is no more, only a dead body that is doomed to decomposition (unless it gets burned first). He is not leaving earth - the body stays around for a bit until its constituents have reacted chemically and the products been washed away or floated out some chimney. It's just that yesterday (wednesday) around 7 p.m. this body stopped to function, which includes no more supply of fuel and oxygen to the brain, which means no more brain functions, and all that flow from them: personality, memory, ideas, dreams, his quirky humour, ... When a wrist watch runs out of battery power, it doesn't leave the earth, nor does the time it used to indicate leave the world. It just doesn't function any longer. It ceased to compute the current time - and this dead man's brain ceased to compute this man's personality.

In a certain, limited way I like touching dead bodies. It provides an intimate way to really understand that this person is no more, and never will be anymore. It gives me a haptic sense of closure.
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Old 15th August 2019, 03:58 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
More and more of the same drivel.

Science is not something exclusive to a "scientific community", it is a method we all use. Even animals use it to some extent. All that is needed is a functioning brain, and observation, to make use of this method.

The limited brain function can be a problem for some.
Are you a doctor of philosophy of science? but does it have to be just empirical evidence?
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:01 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Incidentally, I touched a dead man this morning. He had died about 12 hours earlier and still lay in the bed where he had died at the age of 75. I can report to you that he felt pretty cool (temperature-wise!) and was bereft of life. There are no emotions, no knowledge, no insight and no cognition left. He is dead. In my opinion, he is now somewhat better off than he was in the last days of his life, when his remaining health was in its final deterioration, and he lost more and more abilities and instead developed more and more sores, wounds and other things that made him miserable.

Now he is no more, only a dead body that is doomed to decomposition (unless it gets burned first).

In a certain, limited way I like touching dead bodies. It provides an intimate way to really understand that this person is no more, and never will be anymore. It gives me a haptic sense of closure.
are you skeptical?
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:12 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Are you a doctor of philosophy of science? but does it have to be just empirical evidence?
Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
are you skeptical?

I sense a lack of comprehension here.

What prompts these silly questions?
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:24 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
are you skeptical?
Yes.

I am a nurse in a home for the elderly. My employer is a Christian (protestant) organization. A number of our tenants, of colleagues, and of course the official stance of the organization believe that this dead man is "going somewhere". I am highly skeptical of that.

You see, we deal with the workings, and the failures, of brains all the time. A number of our residents suffer from Alzheimer's dementia: An organic desease that affects the brain by depositing certain proteins on or between brain cells, which inhibts their functions. This in turn has effects on the personalities of the afflicted, to the point where the personality practically vanishes - where the person not only forgets their closest of kin, they even forget how to eat, how to make faces.

Many residents have all sorts of neurological problems, for which quite a few take prescribed drugs. We observe how taking or not taking those drugs influences the way these people behave, and even how they are.

All this is at least indirect evidence that most everything we experience as personality is the result of the physical (chemical, electric...) workings of the brain.

There is no room really for any part of "us" that could exist independent from the existence and constant fuelling of our brain and body.

By the way: I have dealt with people who do not have their own leg anymore, who do not have their own kidneys anymore, and my father even spent the last half year of his life without his own heart - and yet all these people retained their personality, their habits, their quirks, their humour, their memories, etc. So that's how I know these traits have little to nothing to do with legs, kidneys or the heart. Not so for the brain... (Although I have been surprised how resilient a brain can be)
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