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Old 15th August 2019, 04:17 PM   #1
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Historical Jesus

You must believe that Jesus existed!
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:20 PM   #2
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Sure thing but the same can be said of Dionysus. A wine maker as well.
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:27 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
You must believe that Jesus existed!
Of course, he scored the first goal against West Ham last weekend.
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:28 PM   #4
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Here we go again...

Here's a song to cheer us all up:
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I AGREE
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:28 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
You must believe that Jesus existed!
And his best friend's name was Biff. It's written in the book, so it must be true.
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:34 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Of course, he scored the first goal against West Ham last weekend.
I am convinced!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuEb0SzUNaI&t=14
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:34 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
And his best friend's name was Biff. It's written in the book, so it must be true.
Has anyone who recommends loving enemies existed?
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:36 PM   #8
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love the enemies?
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:37 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Has anyone who recommends loving enemies existed?
Yep. I personally need to go nowhere to be near - very near! - such a person.

I love you, Ricardo!
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:37 PM   #10
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Jesus is real................ real real.
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:46 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
love the enemies?
And hate your family
Matty
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:35 I have come to set a father against his son, the daughter against her mother, and a daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.


Could anyone really be that much of a twat?

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Old 15th August 2019, 04:49 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Yep. I personally need to go nowhere to be near - very near! - such a person.

I love you, Ricardo!
I did not understand
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Old 15th August 2019, 05:00 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
You must believe that Jesus existed!
Why must I? The evidence is flimsy at best. But even if a Yeshua existed and preached in the first century does not mean that what was written about him 30 to 100 years later is remotely accurate.

What makes you believe based on the ANONYMOUS Gospels that this person was divine? That is the important question.

Was it the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) that were clearly copied from each other or another source that convinced you? Or the radically different book of John?

Or was it Paul who never met Jesus?

Do you think any of this is good evidence? If so, why is it good evidence?
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Old 15th August 2019, 05:03 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I did not understand
Psalms 17:43 Verily, I say, those hit hardest with the stupid stick will be joyous in their ignorance.
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Old 15th August 2019, 05:51 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Of course, he scored the first goal against West Ham last weekend.
I thought he played hockey. I quote...
"Jesus saves... Gretzky scores!!"




I'll get my coat.
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Old 15th August 2019, 06:11 PM   #16
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I don't have a reason to think about Jesus.
Be it real or just a story doesn't matter to me.
If he existed he didn't know of the workings of the nature as much as an 8-year-old-today knows. Would you say he'd have known how rain comes about?
So I wouldn't worry about anything else he may have said then.
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Old 15th August 2019, 06:16 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Why must I? The evidence is flimsy at best. But even if a Yeshua existed and preached in the first century does not mean that what was written about him 30 to 100 years later is remotely accurate.
I agree.
Quote:
What makes you believe based on the ANONYMOUS Gospels that this person was divine? That is the important question.
It certainly is a stumper. I have no idea why anyone would think that.

Quote:
Was it the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) that were clearly copied from each other or another source that convinced you? Or the radically different book of John?

Or was it Paul who never met Jesus?

Do you think any of this is good evidence? If so, why is it good evidence?
I think the fact that Paul joined an already existing Jesus cult and set about challenging their belief system is evidence that Jesus and his followers (brothers and all) probably did exist.

I suspect that very soon we will hear about Richard Carrier and his, er, research...
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Old 15th August 2019, 06:19 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
You must believe that Jesus existed!

And therefore ...

<crickets>
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Old 15th August 2019, 06:20 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Has anyone who recommends loving enemies existed?
Lots of people have said that.
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Old 15th August 2019, 06:57 PM   #20
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Jesus existed, sure, but the stories about her became very garbled over time and retelling and mistranslations and mistakes. The historical Jesus was a hardboiled detective using her wits, guts, and fists to solve crimes in ancient Persia while also being a single mother of two. And this was this one time she was staying at an elegant country house party weekend and the duchess was strangled to death but only Jesus was clever enough to figure out the duchess strangled herself to throw off suspicion that it was the duchess who stole the duchess's emerald necklace from herself because she was being blackmailed by the duchess under the threat that she would reveal her own involvement in the crime of blackmailing herself to steal the emeralds! What a tangled web the duchess weaved when first she practiced to redundantly fractal-recursive plot against herself redundantly also again! But trust St Luke to screw up the story and change it to shepherds or fishermen or whatever the hell instead.
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Old 15th August 2019, 07:00 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
I think the fact that Paul joined an already existing Jesus cult and set about challenging their belief system is evidence that Jesus and his followers (brothers and all) probably did exist.

I suspect that very soon we will hear about Richard Carrier and his, er, research...
It just doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter!

Cause all the really good looking girls would still go out with the guys from Camp Mohawk because they have all the money!
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Old 15th August 2019, 07:27 PM   #22
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Don't forget his trusty apostles fanning out in all directions to North Africa, to Syria, Greece, Palestine to dispell rumors and urban legends about Jesus and preserve his true story.

As Robert M. Price says "It's blessed are the peacemakers, not blessed are the cheesemakers, now you got that straight Simon?"
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Old 15th August 2019, 07:59 PM   #23
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Define Jesus?

Is Jesus the son of God who performed miracles and rose from the dead? Didn't exist.

Was Jesus a wandering rabbi who pissed off the Roman authorities and got strung up for it? Possibly. But, if so, meh.

So, my usual view: to the extent he was remarkable, he didn't exist. To the extent he existed, he was unremarkable.
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Old 15th August 2019, 08:30 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Define Jesus?

Is Jesus the son of God who performed miracles and rose from the dead? Didn't exist.
There are miracle workers today.
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Old 15th August 2019, 09:43 PM   #25
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I think he was a real person and must have been quite remarkable to have left such an impact on history, like Gandhi or Hitler.
Probably an intelligent and handsome, but misguided chap, with son-of-god-like charisma and oratory instincts, lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time in history to start something that took on a social life of it's own beyond his wildest dreams. But I'm just speculating.
What does science say, was he a real person?
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Old 15th August 2019, 09:55 PM   #26
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Jesus was real, and the evidence of his having lived can be found in his works, which were so profound that their effects are commonplace today, full two millenia after he died.

God saw that humankind was plagued with a dearth of imagination when it came to invective, tending to focus on genitalia, incest and doubtful parentage. And so He sent down His son to do something about this. And His son did not disappoint Him, his name lives on today on our lips.
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Old 15th August 2019, 10:12 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
I think he was a real person and must have been quite remarkable to have left such an impact on history, like Gandhi or Hitler.
Probably an intelligent and handsome, but misguided chap, with son-of-god-like charisma and oratory instincts, lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time in history to start something that took on a social life of it's own beyond his wildest dreams. But I'm just speculating.
What does science say, was he a real person?
No-one really knows. And honestly, it would be very difficult indeed to know for sure. There is equal vehemence on both sides.
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:46 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No-one really knows. And honestly, it would be very difficult indeed to know for sure. There is equal vehemence on both sides.
There is also a vehement debate about whether there is a teacup in orbit around Mars.
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:49 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
There is also a vehement debate about whether there is a teacup in orbit around Mars.
No, there really isn't.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:10 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No-one really knows. And honestly, it would be very difficult indeed to know for sure. There is equal vehemence on both sides.
But not equal numbers. The Academic consensus is that there was a historical Jesus (HJ). That consensus is based on textual analysis and an understanding of the cultural context of 1st century Roman Palestine, amongst other things.

There are a few people who argue against the HJ, but they haven't come anywhere near convincing the majority of experts.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:27 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
But not equal numbers. The Academic consensus is that there was a historical Jesus (HJ). That consensus is based on textual analysis and an understanding of the cultural context of 1st century Roman Palestine, amongst other things.

There are a few people who argue against the HJ, but they haven't come anywhere near convincing the majority of experts.
That's not what I hear, but I'll defer to you as I am far from being an expert on the subject.
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:29 AM   #32
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The "academic consensus" also is that Homeopathy works, if you only ask the academics from that field.
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:44 AM   #33
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Also, textual analysis really only says that about 30% of the sayings and stuff in the gospels are compatible with each other enough to have possibly been said by the same person. No more, no less.

The first and most obvious problem is, almost nobody agrees WHICH 30%, which is a problem. Different people have cherrypicked radically different and mutually incompatible Jesuseseseses. Which of them is the real one? Is any of them, actually? How many different persons have been mashed up into the one we got?

The second, is that the same kind of analysis actually says that the gospel writers didn't really know what was happening there. So insisting that one can still cherrypick what totally really happened there takes a bit of a leap of faith.

The third is that any analysis will also show that it's structured like an ancient novel, with structures like the chiasm and inclusio that tend not to happen like that in any given person's life. So whatever information the gospel writers had about Jesus, has been severely edited to fit that structure. At the VERY LEAST its chronology was rearranged.

The even bigger problem is: you can do the same for the myth of Cthulhu, as I've actually shown in another thread, a long time ago, in a galaxy far away. Or for Superman, Luke Skywalker, or count Pierre Bezukhov, or indeed Count Dracula, or your favourite Game Of Thrones character. If your only criterion is what the book says and what is compatible enough to be possible to have been said by the same person, then almost any character ever qualifies.

And I mean, 30% self-compatible is actually piss poor even for known fiction characters. Any author worth his salt will have his characters have consistent world views, until events in the novel warrant changing them, and then he/she actually shows that happening. If you wrote a character that is all over the place like Jesus in a modern novel, unless the whole POINT is that he's a big lying hypocrite, you wouldn't get it past any publisher.
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:47 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
The "academic consensus" also is that Homeopathy works, if you only ask the academics from that field.
Historians studying the Ancient Near East are somehow equivalent to Homeopaths now?
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:56 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Has anyone who recommends loving enemies existed?
Well, whoever wrote those passages of the New Testament clearly existed, so, yes. Whether those passages related to an actual carpenter's son from Nazareth who believed himself to be the son of God is of less importance, in the sense that, even though I know David Icke exists, the fact of his existence really makes very little difference to me.

Dave
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:57 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
But not equal numbers. The Academic consensus is that there was a historical Jesus (HJ). That consensus is based on textual analysis and an understanding of the cultural context of 1st century Roman Palestine, amongst other things.

There are a few people who argue against the HJ, but they haven't come anywhere near convincing the majority of experts.


You mention “experts” who's opinion we should all apparently accept and agree with.

So, who are these experts?

We have had this exact conversation here before, over literally tens of thousands of posts.

By “experts” you mean Bible Studies Scholars and New Testament Scholars.

But out of all the tens of thousands of such Biblical Scholars, how many entered that profession as devout Christian believers? The answer as far as we can honestly tell is … all of them!

How many have since lost their Christian faith? The answer is that we know of only a tiny handful. In fact the only two who are well known are Bart Ehrman and Hector Avalos. But as both of them have explained themselves, the were also both originally highly devout evangelising street preachers.

So how neutral and unbiased is a profession of “experts” like that?


Also what are these “experts” using as their evidence to conclude that the Jesus they all already believed in, did in fact exist? The answer is that their only source of evidence is the biblical writing itself.

In what other field of academia would something like anonymous 2000 year-old written claims of miracles and the supernatural count as reliable or credible evidence?

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Old 16th August 2019, 01:57 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Also, textual analysis really only says that about 30% of the sayings and stuff in the gospels are compatible with each other enough to have possibly been said by the same person. No more, no less.

The first and most obvious problem is, almost nobody agrees WHICH 30%, which is a problem. Different people have cherrypicked radically different and mutually incompatible Jesuseseseses. Which of them is the real one? Is any of them, actually? How many different persons have been mashed up into the one we got?

The second, is that the same kind of analysis actually says that the gospel writers didn't really know what was happening there. So insisting that one can still cherrypick what totally really happened there takes a bit of a leap of faith.

The third is that any analysis will also show that it's structured like an ancient novel, with structures like the chiasm and inclusio that tend not to happen like that in any given person's life. So whatever information the gospel writers had about Jesus, has been severely edited to fit that structure. At the VERY LEAST its chronology was rearranged.

The even bigger problem is: you can do the same for the myth of Cthulhu, as I've actually shown in another thread, a long time ago, in a galaxy far away. Or for Superman, Luke Skywalker, or count Pierre Bezukhov, or indeed Count Dracula, or your favourite Game Of Thrones character. If your only criterion is what the book says and what is compatible enough to be possible to have been said by the same person, then almost any character ever qualifies.

And I mean, 30% self-compatible is actually piss poor even for known fiction characters. Any author worth his salt will have his characters have consistent world views, until events in the novel warrant changing them, and then he/she actually shows that happening. If you wrote a character that is all over the place like Jesus in a modern novel, unless the whole POINT is that he's a big lying hypocrite, you wouldn't get it past any publisher.
Nevertheless, no one has come up with a better explanation for the texts we have than an actual religious leader who was killed by the Romans.

The idea that he was a pure invention raises more questions than it answers.

No serious Scholar has a problem with the fact that the gospels aren't accurate records of his life. It's the same problem Historians deal with all the time regarding individuals in antiquity.

Maybe one day someone will prove that he never existed, but that hasn't happened yet.
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:02 AM   #38
Brainache
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
You mention “experts” who's opinion we should all apparently accept and agree with.

So, who are these experts?

We have had this exact conversation here before, over literally tens of thousands of posts.

By “experts” you mean Bible Studies Scholars and New Testament Scholars.

But out of all the tens of thousands of such Biblical Scholars, how many entered that profession as devout Christian believers? The answer as far as we can honestly tell is … all of them!

How many have since lost their Christian faith? The answer is that we know of only a tiny handful. In fact the only two who are well known are Bart Ehrman and Hector Avalos. But as both of them have explained themselves, the were also both originally highly devout evangelising street preachers.

So how neutral and unbiased is a profession of “experts” like that?


Also what are these “experts” using as their evidence to conclude that the Jesus they all already believed in, did in fact exist? The answer is that their only source of evidence is the biblical writing itself.

In what other field of academia would something like anonymous 2000 year-old written claims of miracles and the supernatural count as reliable or credible evidence?
Try talking to a Historian and leave the bible thumpers alone. You might learn about how Historians research these questions and (spoiler) it doesn't involve accepting "anonymous 2000 year-old written claims of miracles and the supernatural" as reliable evidence.

It has been years, you could have looked it up by now...
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:28 AM   #39
HansMustermann
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Nevertheless, no one has come up with a better explanation for the texts we have than an actual religious leader who was killed by the Romans.
No. You just keep decreeing that there can't be a better explanation, but that's no more supported than when a completely different gang insists that there is no better explanation than controlled demolition in 9/11
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:29 AM   #40
HansMustermann
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Try talking to a Historian and leave the bible thumpers alone. You might learn about how Historians research these questions and (spoiler) it doesn't involve accepting "anonymous 2000 year-old written claims of miracles and the supernatural" as reliable evidence.

It has been years, you could have looked it up by now...
No, you could have looked it up by now. Because actually you'd find that there are virtually no real historians actually claiming the HJ. What you have are some THEOLOGIANS pretending to be historians, while applying a "historical method" that's actually several iterations out of date compared to what actual historians use.
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