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Tags Allan Kardec , life after death , spiritism , spiritualism

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Old 21st August 2019, 09:28 AM   #361
BStrong
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Allan Kardec has been proved wrong.
As many "mediums" have been exposed as outright frauds.
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Old 21st August 2019, 09:33 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
You ask for evidence or empirical evidence of the existence of spirits ... but I would have to talk to you in person ... off the internet!
So you've started all these discussion threads NOT to discuss them?

Makes sense
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Old 21st August 2019, 09:35 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Science is not infallible and cannot yet explain everything!
No-one claimed otherwise.
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Old 21st August 2019, 09:44 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Science is not infallible and cannot yet explain everything!
To quote (or paraphrase) Dara O'Briain about this nonsense idea:

"Science doesn't know everything. Scientists know this. Otherwise they'd stop doing science."
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:13 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
the characteristic feature of false skepticism is that it centres not on an impartial search for the truth, but on the defence of a preconceived ideological position

These are my ideas about the thing itself and not about the person I address, I can respect the person without participating in their opinions.
I would repeat what so many others have probably already said-Put up or shut up-but having just gone through a load of your previous posts I am reminded of a definition of insanity(repeating the same actions over and over again and expecting different results) and just bow out.
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:16 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Skepticism cannot be harsh and hateful!
I see no evidence that it's hateful. It may be contrary to your desired outcome, but that's just an unfavorable outcome, not hate. Skepticism often must be harsh, because it is based on facts that may contravene someone's cherished belief and should not be blunted simply to preserve feelings.
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:19 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
she said There are some members of the skeptics' groups who clearly believe they know the right answer prior to inquiry.
And who here fits that description? You said you weren't calling out anyone specifically but just wanted to discuss the subject generally. You appear to be trying to walk a fine line between complaining about this forum without issuing any pertinent, testable claims.
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:29 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
And who here fits that description? You said you weren't calling out anyone specifically but just wanted to discuss the subject generally. You appear to be trying to walk a fine line between complaining about this forum without issuing any pertinent, testable claims.
Only evidence from the scientific community is accepted here in this forum?
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:31 AM   #369
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so would I have to be a scientist for you to accept my scientific evidence of the existence of spirits?
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:36 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Only evidence from the scientific community is accepted here in this forum?
Only actual evidence is accepted here in this forum.

And you can't pretend that you're interested in presenting or discussing any kind of evidence at all.

When I started to read the books that you linked to in the other thread I asked you to point me to particular parts of the books that presented the evidence you were referring to, you ignored me. When I tried to start a discussion about the content of the books, you ignored it, repeatedly and deliberately. When I tried to get you to discuss where the testimony of the books is contradicted by reality, you hand-waved it away and have studiously ignored all follow-up.

You don't want to present evidence, or to talk about evidence. You just want to make assertions and have people uncritically accept them as true. Or you want to make assertions, have people question them, and then complain about how unfair everybody is being by questioning them.

Nobody's buying it, I'm afraid.
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:37 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
so would I have to be a scientist for you to accept my scientific evidence of the existence of spirits?
You'd have to actually present some, first. And be prepared to discuss the evidence that you present. But you don't want to do either of those things.

This is nobody's fault but yours.
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:38 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
So you've started all these discussion threads NOT to discuss them?

Makes sense
no ... you just ask for scientific evidence of the existence of spirits .. I'm not a scientist or a member of the scientific community! ...
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:42 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
no ... you just ask for scientific evidence of the existence of spirits .. I'm not a scientist or a member of the scientific community! ...
Scientific evidence is not necessarily from the scientific community. It is evidence gathered by proper procedures, and verified by proper standards. Anyone can do science.
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:45 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Have you abandoned the idea that the books you linked to provide empirical evidence of the existence of spirits, then?
You don't accept books as evidence of the existence of spirits ... Explain to me what kind of evidence you want? If you don't accept sites and books ... I'm not a scientist!
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:48 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
Scientific evidence is not necessarily from the scientific community. It is evidence gathered by proper procedures, and verified by proper standards. Anyone can do science.
I understand now ! Anyone can do science! unofficial science?
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:52 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I understand now ! Anyone can do science! unofficial science?
I do not understand the term "unofficial science". What do you mean by it?
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:54 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
You'd have to actually present some, first. And be prepared to discuss the evidence that you present. But you don't want to do either of those things.

This is nobody's fault but yours.
In official science there is no evidence ... so there is no arguing with you!
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:57 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
so would I have to be a scientist for you to accept my scientific evidence of the existence of spirits?
Rule of so, but what is required is provable evidence, not opinion or wishful thinking.
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:59 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
books or websites you don't accept as evidence ...
Not when I ask you to present what YOU consider as evidence. In your words, in your way. YOUR evidence. Not someone else's.

It's also impolite to ask people to spend hours of their time debunking YOUR claims. It's expected that you should support your claims.
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:01 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
In official science there is no evidence
There's no such thing as "official" science. Science is a methodology, not a country club.

Also, evidence is CENTRAL to science.
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:08 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Rule of so, but what is required is provable evidence, not opinion or wishful thinking.
I understand ... this forum only accepts scientific proof ... so this kind of subject should not be discussed in a skepticism forum .. why didn't you warn me before?
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:12 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Not when I ask you to present what YOU consider as evidence. In your words, in your way. YOUR evidence. Not someone else's.

It's also impolite to ask people to spend hours of their time debunking YOUR claims. It's expected that you should support your claims.
This subject should not be debated in a skeptic forum. so the forum must forbid this matter of the existence of spirits!
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:14 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Skepticism cannot be harsh and hateful!
It depends entirely on what the object of skepticism considers harsh and hateful, though. A devout Christian might well consider rejection of transubstantiation or virgin birth harsh, just as a blithering idiot in political power might consider criticism of his stupidity hateful and unpatriotic. A person who seeks truth will always be judged harsh and hateful by those who promote error.
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:17 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
I do not understand the term "unofficial science". What do you mean by it?
that is not in agreement with the scientific community!
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:20 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
Marcus Aurelius. He addressed this question some time ago:

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”



That works for me.
Or if you prefer, Wislawa Szymborska (the poem "On Death"):

"As far as you've come
Can't be undone."
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:21 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
that is not in agreement with the scientific community!
I think the word you're searching for is "pseudo science."
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:24 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
that is not in agreement with the scientific community!
Since there is no "official science", there can be no "unofficial science". What you seem to be referring to are ideas not in agreement with the common current understanding. That would be every revolutionary advance in knowledge. The greatest scientists are the ones who discover, investigate, and verify new things beyond the current understanding.

If you have discovered such a thing, present it.
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:29 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
This subject should not be debated in a skeptic forum. so the forum must forbid this matter of the existence of spirits!
Hi, me again, the guy you ignored on the other thread about the same thing you started.

I'm a veteran ghost hunter. I've been on this board for a few years now and I've never been harassed or ridiculed.

My secret? I don't post claims I can't back up.

See, when I took Marine Biology I had to show my work. I had to dissect a fish, I had to count marine organisms within a 1mX1m grid, I had to count waves while estimating height, and timing their frequency over a one-hour period.

I haven't been on a spook hunt in a decade, but it always came down to assessing the person claiming the place was haunted and their motives for making the claim. Then I did the work. I never found found a ghost in a place that had a reputation if being haunted...EVER.

I can tell cool ghost stories all day but I can't prove any of them in any way that meets the scientific standard. I can live with this. The standard forces me to do a better, smarter job. Today I ask better questions. Today the question I'm trying to answer isn't, "Are ghosts real?", the better question is, "Why do honest people see ghosts or think their house is haunted?". Guess what? I'm getting answers to that question, and they are backed up by science.

I don't know, maybe sitting on the curb and pouting works for you, but you're on a forum full of men and women with useful knowledge who are happy to answer most of your dumb questions as long as you're polite. If you are in anyway serious about advancing your theory you should take advantage of this.
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:33 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Only evidence from the scientific community is accepted here in this forum?
You didn't address my question or my concern. Please try again.
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:36 AM   #390
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Ricardo, don't get so frustrated. Consider evidence like doing a business transaction. One puts forth a good or service, the other a method of paying him for such. The idea of the seller taking it on faith he will be paid is dumb on his part.

He wants cash as evidence his value. Something he can take to the bank.

You ask us to trust and believe based on your ideas and feelings. Nothing is on the table, maybe the words in a civil war era book by a spiritualist, a fraudster. No value to us.

We simply cannot work with that. I am aware your chosen spiritual leader is my fraudster. Just a matter of opinion. Not an attack on you.

All of us have some facet of our lives where we stand alone in a belief. It may be big or small. Yours seems big to you, may define you even .
But it doesn't mean anyone else has to believe it too.

Learn how to debunk yourself. First impressions and gramma staying it was a miracle from a god don't make it so. Many times it is a mundane, boring turn of events that impressed you so much.

When there is no mundane answers look for miracles and spirits. It is healthy to question things in life.
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:39 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I understand ... this forum only accepts scientific proof ... so this kind of subject should not be discussed in a skepticism forum .. why didn't you warn me before?
This forum accepts evidence that can be tested in rigorous ways. You're simply arguing in circles. You have said that skepticism is akin to religion, but your argument toward that end requires us to treat issues of evidence as if skeptics accept the otherism you're trying to foist. As others have suggested, and as many other proponents before you have attempted, you're trying to broaden the concept of evidence so that it necessarily includes whatever you brought to the table. The insistence on testable evidence for extraordinary claims is one of the ways in which skepticism is unapologetically harsh.
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:41 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I understand ... this forum only accepts scientific proof ... so this kind of subject should not be discussed in a skepticism forum .. why didn't you warn me before?
If you don't understand the meaning of the word "evidence," that's on you.
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:42 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Hi, me again, the guy you ignored on the other thread about the same thing you started.

I'm a veteran ghost hunter. I've been on this board for a few years now and I've never been harassed or ridiculed.

My secret? I don't post claims I can't back up.

See, when I took Marine Biology I had to show my work. I had to dissect a fish, I had to count marine organisms within a 1mX1m grid, I had to count waves while estimating height, and timing their frequency over a one-hour period.

I haven't been on a spook hunt in a decade, but it always came down to assessing the person claiming the place was haunted and their motives for making the claim. Then I did the work. I never found found a ghost in a place that had a reputation if being haunted...EVER.

I can tell cool ghost stories all day but I can't prove any of them in any way that meets the scientific standard. I can live with this. The standard forces me to do a better, smarter job. Today I ask better questions. Today the question I'm trying to answer isn't, "Are ghosts real?", the better question is, "Why do honest people see ghosts or think their house is haunted?". Guess what? I'm getting answers to that question, and they are backed up by science.

I don't know, maybe sitting on the curb and pouting works for you, but you're on a forum full of men and women with useful knowledge who are happy to answer most of your dumb questions as long as you're polite. If you are in anyway serious about advancing your theory you should take advantage of this.
I am polite and respect all of this forum ... all right I understood! thank you
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:45 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
This forum accepts evidence that can be tested in rigorous ways. You're simply arguing in circles. You have said that skepticism is akin to religion, but your argument toward that end requires us to treat issues of evidence as if skeptics accept the otherism you're trying to foist. As others have suggested, and as many other proponents before you have attempted, you're trying to broaden the concept of evidence so that it necessarily includes whatever you brought to the table. The insistence on testable evidence for extraordinary claims is one of the ways in which skepticism is unapologetically harsh.
Alright now I understand! thank you
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:45 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
In official science there is no evidence ... so there is no arguing with you!
Gibberish. But at least we finally understand that you are accusing this forum of being only pseudo-skeptic. Why did you suggest otherwise before?
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:55 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Hi, me again, the guy you ignored on the other thread about the same thing you started.

I'm a veteran ghost hunter. I've been on this board for a few years now and I've never been harassed or ridiculed.

My secret? I don't post claims I can't back up.

See, when I took Marine Biology I had to show my work. I had to dissect a fish, I had to count marine organisms within a 1mX1m grid, I had to count waves while estimating height, and timing their frequency over a one-hour period.

I haven't been on a spook hunt in a decade, but it always came down to assessing the person claiming the place was haunted and their motives for making the claim. Then I did the work. I never found found a ghost in a place that had a reputation if being haunted...EVER.

I can tell cool ghost stories all day but I can't prove any of them in any way that meets the scientific standard. I can live with this. The standard forces me to do a better, smarter job. Today I ask better questions. Today the question I'm trying to answer isn't, "Are ghosts real?", the better question is, "Why do honest people see ghosts or think their house is haunted?". Guess what? I'm getting answers to that question, and they are backed up by science.

I don't know, maybe sitting on the curb and pouting works for you, but you're on a forum full of men and women with useful knowledge who are happy to answer most of your dumb questions as long as you're polite. If you are in anyway serious about advancing your theory you should take advantage of this.
Your clarification was the best ... thank you very much!
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:59 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Gibberish. But at least we finally understand that you are accusing this forum of being only pseudo-skeptic. Why did you suggest otherwise before?
I said that some members of this forum are pseudo-skeptical about the spiritist doctrine! do you know the spiritist doctrine?
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Old 21st August 2019, 12:01 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I said that some members of this forum are pseudo-skeptical about the spiritist doctrine! do you know the spiritist doctrine?
Don't change the subject. You said you weren't criticizing anyone here. But clearly you are. Explain the initial lie.
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Old 21st August 2019, 12:03 PM   #399
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You should not discuss this in a skeptic forum! I close the debate!
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Old 21st August 2019, 12:05 PM   #400
BStrong
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Join Date: Jun 2011
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I said that some members of this forum are pseudo-skeptical about the spiritist doctrine! do you know the spiritist doctrine?
I'm familiar with the Vietnamese version.
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