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Tags Allan Kardec , life after death , spiritism , spiritualism

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Old 17th August 2019, 09:18 AM   #201
Scorpion
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
So, Scorpion, given that you've chosen to ignore the scientific inaccuracies of this book, and that you have stated that you feel obligated to reject books that contain scientific inaccuracies, can we assume from this that you are doing the former because you don't want to do the latter?
I have not entirely ignored things in the book, I have not read it thorougly enough yet to draw a conclusion. I am new to Kardecs writings, and have not read any of them before yesterday.
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Old 17th August 2019, 09:33 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have not entirely ignored things in the book, I have not read it thorougly enough yet to draw a conclusion. I am new to Kardecs writings, and have not read any of them before yesterday.
You spoke of the fluid nature of electricity as if it was something you'd read in there, and I demonstrated to you that it was an outdated theory of electricity that was popular at the time.

I have also pointed out other scientific inaccuracies from the book. Do you think I'm lying about what is in a freely-available and easily-searchable document? Is it beyond your capabilities to look for yourself if you disbelieve me?

And what do you make of the colonial attitudes in the book? Do you agree with the spirit that slaves were savages, inferior in intellect and in their spiritual infancy in comparison to the civilised men who enslaved them? Do those sound to you like attitudes that an enlightened spirit would hold?
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Old 17th August 2019, 10:06 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I cannot prove anything to anyone else. I don't expect anyone to take my word for anything.
My beliefs are in part because I used to feel what I believe was psychic energy. .
So what is your purpose for taking a stand in favor of your belief in a skeptic forum ?
Do you wanna see people discredit your claims ?
If I were so sure about another realm I wouldn't waste a minute with folks here.
I'm trying to understand you.
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Old 17th August 2019, 10:12 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
You spoke of the fluid nature of electricity as if it was something you'd read in there, and I demonstrated to you that it was an outdated theory of electricity that was popular at the time.

I have also pointed out other scientific inaccuracies from the book. Do you think I'm lying about what is in a freely-available and easily-searchable document? Is it beyond your capabilities to look for yourself if you disbelieve me?

And what do you make of the colonial attitudes in the book? Do you agree with the spirit that slaves were savages, inferior in intellect and in their spiritual infancy in comparison to the civilised men who enslaved them? Do those sound to you like attitudes that an enlightened spirit would hold?
But he declared Mohammad's version of "spirit world" a lie -partly-because of scientific inaccuracies in Mohammad's book. Why not apply the same standard to others ?
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Old 17th August 2019, 11:22 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
why do you think there is no life after death?
Why do you think there are no married bachelors?

Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism.
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Old 17th August 2019, 11:54 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Well I think you are wrong, although the reasons I think that have been reduced to only a few things over the years. But I have said all about that on my thread, and I don't want to repeat it all here.
You are entering "god of the gaps" territory. Do you really want to go there?
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Old 17th August 2019, 12:20 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It is not evidence to anyone else, but to me it was part of a developing awareness of psychic energy. The streets of London are filled with unpleasant psychic vibrations, because of all the things that happened there, like the war, and the constant striving for materialism.

But in old churches the walls have been filled with positive psychic energy from the prayers of centuries.
See, here is the thing. As an atheist, I can wander into an old church, cathederal or whatever. I can sit and reflect in that stillness upon myself, I can observe the art and the artisanship it required to put it all together.

I actually quite like it. A lot. Those temples built of ignorance nevertheless have a quality of stillness. The great gothic edifices are fantastic, but even better are the obscure, little visited temples and grottoes. One just shuts one's trap out of respect for those who have gone before and created this tranquil space.

I love it. But it doesn't somehow mean god or spirits are real. I simply means that human beings are sensitive to their environs and that is all.

I can recall bringing my kids to an obscure chapel. Outside was a bucket of noise, but inside was silence and serenity. They asked the obvious question...Does this not indicate some level of holiness (paraphrasing, it was long ago) my answer was that is the mere physics of sound waves, but it doesn't mean we cannot enjoy this oasis of calm.

For a while, it confused me that I am atheist and my kids are atheist (not my doing) all of understood that this was somehow a religious space not to be violated by crass loud conversation. Both of them dropped into whispers without prompting and we were the only people present.

TLR version: Kids are way wiser than us.
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Old 17th August 2019, 12:22 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by winter salt View Post
But he declared Mohammad's version of "spirit world" a lie -partly-because of scientific inaccuracies in Mohammad's book. Why not apply the same standard to others ?
I will do, but I have only read a little of Kardec's book. I am waiting for Ricardo to step in and justify it.
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Old 17th August 2019, 12:26 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I will do, but I have only read a little of Kardec's book. I am waiting for Ricardo to step in and justify it.
And there's the problem. Instead of thinking for yourself, you are waiting for some random internet denizen to instruct you what to think.
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Old 17th August 2019, 01:16 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Yea ! I am skimming through the book of spirits myself. So far I have found it compatible with the teachings I received in the spiritualist association during the 1970's For example it says people do not reincarnate as animals, and each incarnation is progressive.

So you think people are something other than animals then?
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Old 17th August 2019, 01:46 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So you think people are something other than animals then?
Have some heart. Scorpion is struggling to keep up as it is. Don't overload him for pities sake. Too much thinking causes him medical problems he claims.
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Old 17th August 2019, 02:45 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Having no idea of mechanics, can you appreciate the qualities, or the defects of a particular machine? Well, your judgment about Spiritism, which you do not know, can be of no greater value than what, under the above conditions, you have issued on the aforementioned machine. At every step you will be caught in the blatant offense of ignorance, for those who have studied matter will soon know it;
Yes. If the machine does nothing, I know it doesn't work.
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Old 17th August 2019, 02:48 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Have some heart. Scorpion is struggling to keep up as it is. Don't overload him for pities sake. Too much thinking causes him medical problems he claims.

Agreed, with zero intent for snark or sarcasm on my own part. It just makes sense to give Scorpion some time to verify, and consider the import of, Squeegee's posts regarding Kardec's views on "lower races" and other matters.

I can say that most modern day occultism (which is not the same as spiritualism but overlaps considerably in certain areas of belief) has pretty close to the opposite view: that people who follow older traditions and indigenous peoples living closer to the land are more attuned to spirits and spirit worlds, and hence more spiritually advanced, than industrialized Europeans and Americans. That idea is probably less prevalent among the spiritualist-Christian churches Scorpion learned from, though.
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Old 17th August 2019, 03:16 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Yes. If the machine does nothing, I know it doesn't work.
How do you ... who do not know what is the Spiritist doctrine ... can participate in a debate ... about this subject? for you what is the spiritist doctrine?
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Old 17th August 2019, 03:29 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
How do you ... who do not know what is the Spiritist doctrine ... can participate in a debate ... about this subject? for you what is the spiritist doctrine?
Did you forget you 'closed' the debate. The debate with which you never actually engaged.

Until you present a case, let others do so.

Shoo!
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Old 17th August 2019, 04:18 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Parroting Kardec is hardly compelling evidence of anything except Kardecís belief. Rather convenient of somebody to embed within their belief system a ďget out of jail freeĒ card in the form of a rather transparent case of special pleading.

So again, why the urge to debate this? According to everything youíve stated, there can be no debate.
Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
the evidence ... is not found in science ... because the spiritist doctrine is not within the purview of science ... the evidence you want is in the spiritist literature ... in the books I recommended ... this evidence already exists since the 19th century ... I close the debate!
QED
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Old 17th August 2019, 04:26 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It is not evidence to anyone else, but to me it was part of a developing awareness of psychic energy. The streets of London are filled with unpleasant psychic vibrations, because of all the things that happened there, like the war, and the constant striving for materialism.

But in old churches the walls have been filled with positive psychic energy from the prayers of centuries.
I have worked in London too. The streets are noisy and busy. The old churches are quiet and the people in it are being still and quiet.

Of course you are going to feel a difference.
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Old 18th August 2019, 01:50 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
How do you ... who do not know what is the Spiritist doctrine ... can participate in a debate ... about this subject? for you what is the spiritist doctrine?
I went out of my way to read the material at the link you provided and start a discussion of it here. Your only response has been to PM me with more links to more books you think I should read.

This leads me to believe that you have no genuine interest in discussing this subject. As does the fact that you're refusing to engage with Scorpion (publicly, at least - I have no idea if you've also communicated with him via PM), who actually has the same beliefs you do, and who has been knowledgeable about "the doctrine" for decades.

The question for me, then, is what are you trying to achieve by posting this thread. Can you explain?
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Old 18th August 2019, 03:01 AM   #219
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Selling something. By having a "skeptic" at this forum actually look at his references, Ricardo can then stretch that into "skeptics take me seriously". From there it is not a long hop to "skeptics believe me". And then it is just a short walk to "I convinced the skeptics! Buy my books!"
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Old 18th August 2019, 04:01 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Selling something. By having a "skeptic" at this forum actually look at his references, Ricardo can then stretch that into "skeptics take me seriously". From there it is not a long hop to "skeptics believe me". And then it is just a short walk to "I convinced the skeptics! Buy my books!"
I feel the presence of spirits ... through shivering or involuntary rapid muscle twitching ... this phenomenon ... that happens to me ... is caused by the approaching of spirits ... and is described in the book ... SENSITIVE MEDIUM OR IMPRESSIBLE. This is the name of people who may feel the presence of spirits by a vague impression, a kind of brush against all the members.
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Old 18th August 2019, 04:05 AM   #221
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their approach causes ... a twitch in my left shoulder ... to me this is evidence of the existence of spirits ... I came to this conclusion ... from my own experience ...
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Old 18th August 2019, 04:08 AM   #222
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I feel goose bumps ... this goose bumps are caused by spirits ... it's the same description that is in the books ...
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Old 18th August 2019, 04:09 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I went out of my way to read the material at the link you provided and start a discussion of it here. Your only response has been to PM me with more links to more books you think I should read.

This leads me to believe that you have no genuine interest in discussing this subject. As does the fact that you're refusing to engage with Scorpion (publicly, at least - I have no idea if you've also communicated with him via PM), who actually has the same beliefs you do, and who has been knowledgeable about "the doctrine" for decades.

The question for me, then, is what are you trying to achieve by posting this thread. Can you explain?
I feel the presence of spirits ... through shivering or involuntary rapid muscle twitching ... this phenomenon ... that happens to me ... is caused by the approaching of spirits ... and is described in the book ... SENSITIVE MEDIUM OR IMPRESSIBLE. This is the name of people who may feel the presence of spirits by a vague impression, a kind of brush against all the members.
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Old 18th August 2019, 04:10 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I feel the presence of spirits ... through shivering or involuntary rapid muscle twitching ... this phenomenon ... that happens to me ... is caused by the approaching of spirits ... and is described in the book ... SENSITIVE MEDIUM OR IMPRESSIBLE. This is the name of people who may feel the presence of spirits by a vague impression, a kind of brush against all the members.
What’s the difference between the same symptoms caused by mundane reasons, and those claimed to have been caused by spirits?
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Old 18th August 2019, 04:12 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Whatís the difference between the same symptoms caused by mundane reasons, and those claimed to have been caused by spirits?
what happens to me ... is described in the books I quoted ... understand?
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Old 18th August 2019, 04:21 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I feel the presence of spirits ... through shivering or involuntary rapid muscle twitching ... this phenomenon ... that happens to me ... is caused by the approaching of spirits ... and is described in the book ... SENSITIVE MEDIUM OR IMPRESSIBLE. This is the name of people who may feel the presence of spirits by a vague impression, a kind of brush against all the members.
This has nothing to do with any of my posts. Are you going to address my posts?
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Old 18th August 2019, 04:44 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
This has nothing to do with any of my posts. Are you going to address my posts?
I'm showing evidence that to me ... is the existence of spirits ... then I will answer to you ... all right?
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Old 18th August 2019, 04:47 AM   #228
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I'll reply later ... your posts ...
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Old 18th August 2019, 04:48 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I'm showing evidence that to me ... is the existence of spirits ...
What do you expect me to do with this information? It's got nothing to do with any of my posts.

Quote:
then I will answer to you ... all right?
I'm not sure I believe you will. Why not just answer now?
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Old 18th August 2019, 04:50 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
what happens to me ... is described in the books I quoted ... understand?
I understand that you either don’t understand the question or are discombobulated by its implications, as you have avoided answering it

In other words, having a second breakfast doesn’t mean you’re a Hobbit if you’ve read Tolkien...
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Old 18th August 2019, 04:50 AM   #231
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I was busy ... ok
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Old 18th August 2019, 04:55 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
I understand that you either donít understand the question or are discombobulated by its implications, as you have avoided answering it

In other words, having a second breakfast doesnít mean youíre a Hobbit if youíve read Tolkien...
it's hard to explain to you ... the goose bumps are always the same intensity ... right now I felt another goose bumps ...
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Old 18th August 2019, 04:57 AM   #233
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That's why I recommended reading the books I indicated .. to facilitate the debate .. what happens to me is described in the books ..
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Old 18th August 2019, 05:45 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
That's why I recommended reading the books I indicated .. to facilitate the debate .. what happens to me is described in the books ..
Ricardo: "Starts a thread to discuss a subject."
Posters: *Try to discuss the subject.*
Ricardo: "Before we can discuss this, you need to read these books."
Poster: *Reads the books and tries to discuss the subject*
Ricardo: *Ignores discussion*
Posters: "Why aren't you discussing the subject you started this thread to discuss?"
Ricardo: "Before we can discuss this, you need to read these books."
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Old 18th August 2019, 07:45 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
they need to study about pseudo-skepticism! they don't even know what pseudo-skepticism is!

I bet you don't either. I've seen this referred to on another board and in spite of repeated requests, the writer has failed to come up with any understandable definition.
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Old 18th August 2019, 07:54 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
it's hard to explain to you ... the goose bumps are always the same intensity ... right now I felt another goose bumps ...
Have you at any time considered looking into a neurological explanation for the symptoms? Iím quite sure there is one, and Iím equally sure you will dismiss it.
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Old 18th August 2019, 08:30 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So you think people are something other than animals then?
Hindus think we reincarnate as other species of animals, but the spirits teach reincarnation is progressive, and humans do not reincarnate as lower animals.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 18th August 2019, 08:34 AM   #238
Scorpion
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I have worked in London too. The streets are noisy and busy. The old churches are quiet and the people in it are being still and quiet.

Of course you are going to feel a difference.
I could feel the psychic energy in old churches as soon as I walked in the door.
It was like a warmth that had nothing to do with central heating. I did not feel the same energy in new church buildings like Victorian churches, only very old medieval ones.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 18th August 2019 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 18th August 2019, 08:39 AM   #239
Ricardo
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
Have you at any time considered looking into a neurological explanation for the symptoms? Iím quite sure there is one, and Iím equally sure you will dismiss it.
it depends on what I think ... certain thought about a subject ... causes the chills
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Old 18th August 2019, 08:50 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
it depends on what I think ... certain thought about a subject ... causes the chills
it would be like a certain thought of mine ... causes an intelligent force to approach and causes my left shoulder to twitch ..always my left shoulder ... never the right ...
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