ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Closed Thread
Old 27th March 2018, 02:49 PM   #2041
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,162
Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
That's it?

This is your best (or near best) effort/summary of the evidence which supports "the ELECTRIC COMET"?

Well, just for starters anywho.

There are few others, such as:

Is near-surface ice the driver of dust activity on 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko Yu. V. Skorov1, L. Rezac1, P. Hartogh1, and H. U. Keller

That’s a good’n.

Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity T.A. Nordheima,b,n, G.H. Jonesa,b, J.S. Halekasc, E. Roussosd, A.J. Coatesa,b

I’ve been fond of that one for awhile, have a read.

There are more but it’s easier behind a PC to supply links for Jean Tate.
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th March 2018, 03:00 PM   #2042
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,162
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post12227647
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th March 2018, 04:10 PM   #2043
jonesdave116
Illuminator
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,104
Quote:
Is near-surface ice the driver of dust activity on 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko Yu. V. Skorov1, L. Rezac1, P. Hartogh1, and H. U. Keller
Sorry? Would you like me to post a screenshot of the email from Yuri Skorov? How much of this are you not understanding? Everything, evidently. Deary me.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th March 2018, 04:16 PM   #2044
jonesdave116
Illuminator
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,104
Quote:
Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity
Which part of that is beyond you? Hmm? Let us know dear, and we'll try to explain it to you. Again.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th March 2018, 04:24 PM   #2045
jonesdave116
Illuminator
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,104
Anyway Sol. we are still looking for some answers.......
Firstly, why did the idiot Thornhill lie to you about the water at comets? He knew damned well that the KAO had detected it definitively at Halley in 1985. So why did he keep on with this 'it's only OH' lie for another 20 years? At least? Is he a pathological liar? Or is he just stupid?
Please explain. Before I go on with more of his lies.......
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin

Last edited by jonesdave116; 27th March 2018 at 04:31 PM.
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th March 2018, 02:09 AM   #2048
tusenfem
Master Poster
 
tusenfem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Charge carrying Double Layers of various strengths, thickness and frequencies and distance from the nucleus, Birkeland currents of various lengths, strengths, widths and coherent-ness (force free and collisionless ) is the ELECTRIC COMET.
wow that is a nice word salad, please do not hesitate to go into more depth, especially about the charge? carryind double layer's frequency or the birkeland current's coherent-ness.
__________________
20 minutes into the future
This message is bra-bra-brought to you by z-z-z-zik zak
And-And-And I'm going to be back with you - on Network 23 after these real-real-real-really exciting messages

(Max Headroom)
follow me on twitter: @tusenfem, or follow Rosetta Plasma Consortium: @Rosetta_RPC
tusenfem is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th March 2018, 03:54 PM   #2049
jonesdave116
Illuminator
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,104
I was just amusing myself (ooooer, missus!), by reading back through all of the comments made by David Talbott during his brief dalliance with ISF. This led me to notice the following:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2406

Quote:
What does not appear ambiguous is the fact that large bodies falling toward the Sun from the outermost reaches never fail to become comets. So both the ambiguous and unambiguous distinctions between comets and asteroids must be taken into account.
Whoops! Oumuamua, anyone? Didn't exactly light up the heavens, did it?

Also, in regard to comet 19P/ Borrelly:

Quote:
"No traces of water ice" is of course the reason why standard theorists were so surprised. And no sublimating ice is the background FACT leading to the "hot and dry" finding.
One of his "predictions" for 67P was a hot and dry surface, based on some quote-mining from a press release, about not seeing ice on the comet's surface. What he didn't mention, back in 2014, was that the satellite Odin had investigated Borrelly in 2001 in sub-mm. And found it to be outgassing ~ 1200 l/s of H2O. And that is definitely water, being seen at ~ 557 GHz in sub-mm.

Submillimetre observations of comets with Odin: 2001–2005
Biver, N. et al.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0610779.pdf
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th April 2018, 10:24 PM   #2050
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,162
Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
wow that is a nice word salad, please do not hesitate to go into more depth, especially about the charge? carryind double layer's frequency or the birkeland current's coherent-ness.
Good luck today on

13:45–14:00 - EGU2018-1849 A tail like no other (RPC-MAG's view of Rosetta's tail excursion at comet 67P/CG) by Martin Volwerk

Wish I could be a fly on the wall.
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 04:29 AM   #2051
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,162
Electric Currents in Geospace and Beyond

And we are still arguing the role electricity plays in the Universe?????


Seems pretty straight forward but ....
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 05:53 AM   #2052
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,730
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Electric Currents in Geospace and Beyond

And we are still arguing the role electricity plays in the Universe?????


Seems pretty straight forward but ....
It is pretty straight forward. And yet, you continue to be confused by it. Your citation doesn't support any of your electric comet nonsense.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 05:59 AM   #2053
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,162
Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
wow that is a nice word salad, please do not hesitate to go into more depth, especially about the charge? carryind double layer's frequency or the birkeland current's coherent-ness.
Turn the tables here a bit, why can there NOT be double layers in space plasma especially at comets?

All conditions are satisfied!

I mean now we have gotten over the whole MHD thing.

PS how was your talk at egu2018 go?
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 06:03 AM   #2054
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,162
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It is pretty straight forward. And yet, you continue to be confused by it. Your citation doesn't support any of your electric comet nonsense.
Ahh, so you know the complete curcuit at a comet?

How far does the ion tail extend? How does it “close the circuit”?

According to the expert there are only Harris type current sheets at a comet.

Are you still comfortable with the Whipples dirtysnowball model still Ziggurat?
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 07:31 AM   #2055
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,730
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Ahh, so you know the complete curcuit at a comet?
That's a non-sequitor. The issue isn't what I personally know, but that your source doesn't actually support your theory.

Quote:
Are you still comfortable with the Whipples dirtysnowball model still Ziggurat?
Depends what you mean by that. Comets are certainly mostly ice. The data on that is unambiguous and conclusive, and your source doesn't contradict that in any way.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 08:04 AM   #2056
jonesdave116
Illuminator
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,104
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Electric Currents in Geospace and Beyond

And we are still arguing the role electricity plays in the Universe?????
No, you are. All that stuff is known about and studied. Some of it for many decades. What you won't see in that book is a chapter on intergalactic currents. Or electric stars. Or electric comets. Or electric cratering. Or electric volcanoes.
I see Tusenfem's paper is the last chapter, and his buddy Tony Lui also writes a chapter. Maybe you should buy the book to help you distinguish between actual science, and mythology-based fairy tales.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 01:50 PM   #2057
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 26,435
Thumbs down A lie that we are arguing about the role electricity plays in the Universe

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
And we are still arguing the role electricity plays in the Universe?????
11 April 2018: A lie that we are arguing about the role electricity plays in the Universe
This is a thread about the insane delusions that comets are rocks, etc. which includes lies about the role of electricity in the universe (jets are electrical discharges, impossible Birkeland currents, etc.)

11 April 2018: A lie by citing Electric Currents in Geospace and Beyond which is a standard astrophysics book.
Electric Currents in Geospace and Beyond
Quote:
Electric currents are fundamental to the structure and dynamics of space plasmas, including our own near-Earth space environment, or “geospace.”This volume takes an integrated approach to the subject of electric currents by incorporating their phenomenology and physics for many regions in one volume. It covers a broad range of topics from the pioneers of electric currents in outer space, to measurement and analysis techniques, and the many types of electric currents.
•First volume on electric currents in space in over a decade that provides authoritative up-to-date insight on the current status of research
•Reviews recent advances in observations, simulation, and theory of electric currents
•Provides comparative overviews of electric currents in the space environments of different astronomical bodies

Electric Currents in Geospace and Beyond serves as an excellent reference volume for a broad community of space scientists, astronomers, and astrophysicists who are studying space plasmas in the solar system.
This includes not even reading the table of contents or index which are available are excerpts and understanding that "Currents in*Cometary Comae" by a Martin Volwerk is the only relevant article and is the mainstream model. The index includes "“dirty snowball” model of" and "Oort cloud of" (comet origin) !

10th April 2015: The ignorance, delusions and lies in the Thunderbolts web site, videos, etc.

The electric comet delusion has at least 45 years without a scientific electric comet model or observations to support it !

Getting lose to 3 years of the fear of doing basic physics: 25 June 2015 Sol88: Use a impact calculator to calculate the size of the crater on a comet made of rock by the Deep Impact impactor.

His comet delusions include comets are rocks; these rocks were blasted from the Earth including recently; blasting was by electrical discharges between Earth and Venus; an imaginary solar electric field charges up comets; the charge causes never detected electrical discharges; comet jets are electrical discharges; images show that comets are rocks; Birkeland currents in comets and their tails with no appropriate magnetic field; papers using bedrock to describe layers of ices support his comet are rock delusion, imaginary double layers do magic; many years of lying that ices have not been detected on comets, a "hard shell of refractory material on the outside" lie, insanity of consolidated ices and dust in papers being rock.

803 items of ignorance, idiocy (citing irrelevant mainstream papers), delusion and lies dating from 29 August 2016 to 22 March 2018 (maybe hundreds more in the last 8 years!)

Last edited by Reality Check; 10th April 2018 at 02:08 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 04:01 PM   #2058
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,162
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's a non-sequitor. The issue isn't what I personally know, but that your source doesn't actually support your theory.



Depends what you mean by that. Comets are certainly mostly ice. The data on that is unambiguous and conclusive, and your source doesn't contradict that in any way.

Oh, so you do know Fanny Adams!
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 04:02 PM   #2059
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,162
Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
No, you are. All that stuff is known about and studied. Some of it for many decades. What you won't see in that book is a chapter on intergalactic currents. Or electric stars. Or electric comets. Or electric cratering. Or electric volcanoes.
I see Tusenfem's paper is the last chapter, and his buddy Tony Lui also writes a chapter. Maybe you should buy the book to help you distinguish between actual science, and mythology-based fairy tales.
Since Alfven said MHD is wrong you mean?

Yeah, nah it is coming along, slowly as the dinosaurs die out and it becomes self evident the movement of electric charge thruout the universe.
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator

Last edited by Sol88; 10th April 2018 at 04:06 PM.
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 04:37 PM   #2060
jonesdave116
Illuminator
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,104
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Since Alfven said MHD is wrong you mean?

Yeah, nah it is coming along, slowly as the dinosaurs die out and it becomes self evident the movement of electric charge thruout the universe.
Errrrm.. Alfven, bless 'im is long since dead. Yes? The guy is irrelevant to modern plasma physics, isn''t he? Go away and learn some plasma physics, dear. Just like Falthammar did.
How come you guys are so crap at this?
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin

Last edited by jonesdave116; 10th April 2018 at 04:39 PM.
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 06:20 PM   #2061
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,162
Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Errrrm.. Alfven, bless 'im is long since dead. Yes? The guy is irrelevant to modern plasma physics, isn''t he? Go away and learn some plasma physics, dear. Just like Falthammar did.
How come you guys are so crap at this?
Aww gee, shucks. Thanks sweetie.

MHD should have died with Alfven but here we are! Mainstream REQUIRE MHD so that the maths can be done! Simple.

So the plasma physics that is applicable here doe NOT require the plasma to be ideal! (quasi-Neutral and magnetic field "frozen" in)

this is what I have learned in the 9 odd years since this thread started. We used to argue the can be no charge separation in space plasmas well that's PROVEN to be wrong, as Alfven stated it would be.

Would you care to talk about Tusenfem's "non classical nest draping" around 67P and how that applies to the above statement wrt MHD?
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 07:01 PM   #2062
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 26,435
Thumbs down A lie that Alfven said MHD is wrong from another lying, deluded Thunderbolts video

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
...Alfven said MHD is wrong
11 April 2018: A lie that Alfven said MHD is wrong from another lying, deluded Thunderbolts video.

We have yet another lying, deluded Thunderbolts video which is mainly a rant about the Slashdot community.
  1. The lie that space scientists assume that electric charge and current do not exist in space. Plasma always has charges. Add a magnetic field and we get electric currents.
  2. Stupidity about a Quara.com answer to a "is there lightning in space" questions. The answer is correct (there is none) but for the wrong reason. There is no dielectric medium such as air to breakdown so no lightning. Plasma conducts so no lightning.
  3. A lie that electric current in a galactic jet reported in 20111 is "space lightning": Universe’s highest electric current found. Or the idiocy that "equivalent to a trillion bolts of lightning" = actual lightning.
  4. A delusion that the standard astrophysics of galactic jets containing electric currents and being electromagnetic structures needs announcement by reporters.
  5. A lie that there is a "shift in theory" that needs reporting.
  6. Chris Reeve has the delusion that comments on How we discovered the strange physics of jets from supermassive black holes are scientific literature. A commenter wrote a delusion that jets are electric currents and others stated that was wrong (jets are electromagnetic though).
  7. Insane obsession with Hannes Alfvén (and a few others) statements from up to 40 years ago (That 1970 speech) )as if he was the only plasma scientist who ever lived!
  8. Total insanity of a widespread "no interstellar matter" concept citing a 1937 Alfvén paper proposing a galactic magnetic field, a 1963 Popular Science article, etc.
  9. Delusions of recent "admissions" that electricity can flow through space.
  10. Delusion that dark matter can be explained by plasma.
  11. The delusion that galactic jets are Birkeland currents because a Thunderbolts "prophet" says so.

The big lie is "Alfvén realized towards the end of his career that the widespread application of MHD in astrophysics was a huge mistake" and cites his 1970 Nobel lecture (PDF).
Next is the frozen in magnetic field approximation lie we have seen from Thunderbolts idiots before and a lie of a "plea to ignore his earlier work" in his acceptance speech which is mostly about the origin of the solar system (Plasma physics, space research and the origin of the solar system).

The real insanity is the Thunderbolts cult ignoring maybe 40 years of plasma physics during which the frozen in magnetic field approximation has been largely removed with advances n MHD.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 07:05 PM   #2063
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 26,435
Thumbs down An inane "MHD should have died with Alfven" delusion

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
MHD should have died with Alfven but here we are!
11 April 2018: An inane "MHD should have died with Alfven" delusion.

Ideal MHD worked as Alfven acknowledged for the appropriate plasma. It was the failure to match other plasma that has lead to progress of non-idea MHD.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 07:09 PM   #2064
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 26,435
Thumbs down A lie that we argued that there can be no charge separation in space plasmas

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
this is what I have learned in the 9 odd years since this thread started. We used to argue the can be no charge separation in space plasmas well that's PROVEN to be wrong, as Alfven stated it would be.
11 April 2018: A lie that we argued that there can be no charge separation in space plasmas.
Honest people have pointed out over the last 9 odd years that double layers are mainstream physics and exist. He has lied about where DLs appear.

His comet delusions include comets are rocks; these rocks were blasted from the Earth including recently; blasting was by electrical discharges between Earth and Venus; an imaginary solar electric field charges up comets; the charge causes never detected electrical discharges; comet jets are electrical discharges; images show that comets are rocks; Birkeland currents in comets and their tails with no appropriate magnetic field; papers using bedrock to describe layers of ices support his comet are rock delusion, imaginary double layers do magic; many years of lying that ices have not been detected on comets, a "hard shell of refractory material on the outside" lie, insanity of consolidated ices and dust in papers being rock.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 07:27 PM   #2065
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,162
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
11 April 2018:Snip

The real insanity is the Thunderbolts cult ignoring maybe 40 years of plasma physics during which the frozen in magnetic field approximation has been largely removed with advances n MHD.
Would you like the complete list of where MHD was used wrt cometary plasma?

Should we start with Tusenfem papers?

Quote:
Magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) models (electrons and ions are treated as fluids) have shortcomings in modeling the structure of the plasma around the comet (Hansen et al. 2007).
PLASMA ENVIRONMENT AROUND COMET 67P/CHURYUMOV–GERASIMENKO AT PERIHELION: MODEL COMPARISON WITH ROSETTA DATA
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator

Last edited by Sol88; 10th April 2018 at 07:36 PM.
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 08:20 PM   #2066
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,730
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Since Alfven said MHD is wrong you mean?
Newtonian mechanics is wrong. That's not a reason not to use it. You use it when it's accurate, which isn't the same thing as not being wrong. And real scientists (which you are manifestly not) understand that difference. More over, real plasma physicists understand when MHD is accurate and when it's not.

Oh, and your thunderdolts link is stupid and irrelevant. Your links never actually support your claims.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 08:33 PM   #2067
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,162
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Newtonian mechanics is wrong. That's not a reason not to use it. You use it when it's accurate, which isn't the same thing as not being wrong. And real scientists (which you are manifestly not) understand that difference. More over, real plasma physicists understand when MHD is accurate and when it's not.

Oh, and your thunderdolts link is stupid and irrelevant. Your links never actually support your claims.

Would you like to discuss non classical nested draping at comets?

I'm sorry you did not understand the video.

MHD has less and less to do with actual REAL plasmas and more to do with the maths involved.

The comet is surrounded by double layers and Birkeland currents (FAC's, flux ropes, flux tubes, stringy things.....)

As Tusenfem states it's a ROCK in the SOLAR WIND.

M.Volwerk
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 09:14 PM   #2068
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 26,435
Thumbs down Idiocy and a lie not related to his insane video

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Would you like the complete list of where MHD was used wrt cometary plasma?
11 April 2018: Idiocy and a lie not related to his insane video.

11 April 2018: A lie that Alfven said MHD is wrong from another lying, deluded Thunderbolts video.

PLASMA ENVIRONMENT AROUND COMET 67P/CHURYUMOV–GERASIMENKO AT PERIHELION: MODEL COMPARISON WITH ROSETTA DATA is real physics not the delusions of an ignorant cult.
Quote:
Magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) models (electrons and ions are treated as fluids) have shortcomings in modeling the structure of the plasma around the comet (Hansen et al. 2007). However, the improved multifluid MHD model of Rubin et al. (2014) showed that draping of the magnetic field lines and gyration of the ions near the comet are in agreement with hybrid model results. These models predicted that the cause of instabilities in the magnetic field, such as those seen in MAG data (Goetz et al. 2016), can be due to asymmetric outgassing from the nucleus or a sudden drop in the solar wind dynamic pressure (Rubin et al. 2012; Koenders et al. 2015; Richter et al. 2015).
11 April 2018: Lies by quote mining H. Madanian et.al.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 09:18 PM   #2069
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 26,435
Thumbs down Lies about tunsenfem's joke in a tweet

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
As Tusenfem states it's a ROCK in the SOLAR WIND.
11 April 2018: Lies about tunsenfem's joke in a tweet.

13 March 2018: A lie that a tweet title supports his many comet delusions.
14 March 2018: A "M.Volwerk, M.Taylor, Jean-Pierre Bibring and others call it rock" lie.
Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
That is an Rosetta RPC insiders' joke, which you will not understand.

ETA: and that was not a link to my poster (whatever that might be), but to a tweet about my talk in Umeå
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 09:21 PM   #2070
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 26,435
Thumbs down Lies of "double layers and Birkeland currents (FAC's, flux ropes, flux tubes, ...

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
The comet is surrounded by double layers and Birkeland currents (FAC's, flux ropes, flux tubes, stringy things.....)
11 April 2018: Lies of "double layers and Birkeland currents (FAC's, flux ropes, flux tubes, stringy things.....)" around comets.

He knows that there is no evidence of double layers or Birkeland currents around comets.

Last edited by Reality Check; 10th April 2018 at 09:22 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th April 2018, 10:38 PM   #2071
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,162
@RC

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post12227647

Perhaps you had forgotten to answer my question on this post?

What best describes this plasma “structure”, reality check?

Also for your reference https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doub...plasma_physics)

Would I expect an answer or are you going to blather on again?
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th April 2018, 02:11 AM   #2072
jonesdave116
Illuminator
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,104
Sol. who gives a tuppenny **** about DLs? You have just had a spacecraft, and its lander, at and around a comet for 2+ years, down to zero metres. If there are any DLs, and the experts say there aren't, then what do you think they are doing? EDM (lol)? Glow discharges (lol)? Please spell out how this has any relevance whatsoever to the garbage proposed by the idiot Thornhill, and what the evidence for it is.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th April 2018, 02:15 AM   #2073
jonesdave116
Illuminator
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,104
Quote:
The comet is surrounded by double layers and Birkeland currents (FAC's, flux ropes, flux tubes, stringy things.....)[/
No, it isn't. You just made that up.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th April 2018, 02:25 AM   #2074
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,162
Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Sol. who gives a tuppenny **** about DLs? You have just had a spacecraft, and its lander, at and around a comet for 2+ years, down to zero metres. If there are any DLs, and the experts say there aren't, then what do you think they are doing? EDM (lol)? Glow discharges (lol)? Please spell out how this has any relevance whatsoever to the garbage proposed by the idiot Thornhill, and what the evidence for it is.
Hello RC!

Oh it's wait jd116 not RC answering. funny that.

I'll ask you then jd116, what id this if not a double layer;

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post12227647
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th April 2018, 02:40 AM   #2075
jonesdave116
Illuminator
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,104
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Hello RC!

Oh it's wait jd116 not RC answering. funny that.

I'll ask you then jd116, what id this if not a double layer;

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post12227647
I don't really care. What do the authors say? And, as I asked, what do you think it is doing? EDM (lol)? Glow discharges (lol)? Turning ice and dust into rock? Please tell me what relevance this has to Thornhill's loopy, unscientific woo.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th April 2018, 02:59 AM   #2076
jonesdave116
Illuminator
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,104
Quote:
MHD should have died with Alfven.................
Wrong. As Alfven would tell you. And Falthammar. And others. The only loons who believe this are the EU lot, and they haven't got a plasma physicist amongst them.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th April 2018, 06:32 AM   #2077
tusenfem
Master Poster
 
tusenfem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,629
okay to put a few things right

electricity is an engineering word not a physics word

no mainstream ever said that currents are not important, that is an electric uninerse fable. one uses the technique that fits best, sometimes currents, sometimes magnetic fields.

and this is something that is a recurring theme, use the suitable method for your problem.
you will not use general relatvity to calculate when the apple will hit newton's head
smilarly you will not use kinetic plasma theory for a fluid scale process

mhd is not dead, and a few pages ago i gave the conditions for mhd to be applicable, if you look at large scales in time and space you cam (most of the time) use mhd, why make it more difficult for yourself?
and if the plasma is near ideal, you can even use frozen in fields over not too long time scales

harris current sheets, that i discussed are not the only ones that may be present, but they are the ones that are related to the rotations of the magnetic field that i observed, and the density peaks at the centre of the rotation fits with that modl. but if i would look at the current on the boundary of the diamagnetic cavity it would pribablynot be a harris type.

then double layers, which are tens of debye lengths in size (so 10000 km would probable a wee bit much) may or may not occur, we have not seen them yet. laakso sees strong electric fiels in the cometopause (but says in the text sol shows that he questions tbe validity of such large values).
as i am on my tablet and on a meeting i cannot check the paper, so i cannot check the direction of the field, but most likely across the magnetic field, from the outside to the inside of the cp. then it is the question if a dl can actually be generated.

every dl is an electric field but not every electric field is a dl. also in a dl the electric field is basicalky constant, and at halley it changes a lot.

well that is all i will type on my tablet
__________________
20 minutes into the future
This message is bra-bra-brought to you by z-z-z-zik zak
And-And-And I'm going to be back with you - on Network 23 after these real-real-real-really exciting messages

(Max Headroom)
follow me on twitter: @tusenfem, or follow Rosetta Plasma Consortium: @Rosetta_RPC
tusenfem is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th April 2018, 10:55 AM   #2078
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,730
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Would you like to discuss non classical nested draping at comets?
Why would I? It's not relevant to anything I said, nor does it support your central claim about the nature of comets.

Quote:
MHD has less and less to do with actual REAL plasmas and more to do with the maths involved.
tusenfem gave a description of when and why MHD doesn't work. You have consistently failed to describe how comets meet those conditions. Furthermore, the inapplicability of MHD to some plasmas cannot turn ice into rock.

Quote:
As Tusenfem states it's a ROCK in the SOLAR WIND.
Yeah, no. That's really not what tusenfem is saying. It's most definitely not an actual rock.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th April 2018, 02:24 PM   #2079
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 26,435
Exclamation A deluded DL question was ignored but since he insists ...

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
@RC...
I pointed out that he lied about a Laako paper finding double layers when it did not mention DLs:
22 March 2018: Repeats his lie of DLs found around comets in a Laako paper.

22 March 2018: A lie about the definition of a double layer being a potential drop.
Quote:
The definition is "A double layer is a structure in a plasma consisting of two parallel layers of opposite electrical charge." and "typically ten Debye lengths". The potential drop is a consequence of the charge separation and falls on one side of the DL, rises on the other side. Laako only reports a potential drop [as quoted].
22 March 2018: A "discharge from the nucleus" lie about a Laako paper.

His ignorant fantasies about the paper do not count given his many insanely ignorant delusions about comets and track record of lies here.
803 items of ignorance, idiocy (citing irrelevant mainstream papers), delusion and lies dating from 29 August 2016 to 22 March 2018 (maybe hundreds more in the last 8 years!)

12 April 2018: A deluded DL question was ignored but since he insists on his delusions being recorded forever we have a size of DL delusion.

Debye lengths), compared to the sizes of the plasmas that contain them.[/quote]
Click in that that Debye length link to see that length of "typically ten Debye lengths" is ~100 meters for the solar wind. Laako states as in that image "The thickness of the CP is thus about 10,000 km"
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th April 2018, 02:27 PM   #2080
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 26,435
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Hello RC!
Hello insanely ignorant delusions about comets and DLs.
12 April 2018: A deluded DL question was ignored but since he insists on his delusions being recorded forever we have a size of DL delusion.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:18 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.