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Old 14th November 2017, 03:35 PM   #361
xjx388
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I just ran across a story that said the US banned lawn darts in 1988 because some people were hurt and killed. On the one hand, I guess it shows we won't tolerate some deaths. OTOH, WE BANNED LAWN DARTS BECAUSE OF A FEW ACCIDENTS?!? WTF is wrong with us?!?

I guess you can argue that the Constitution does not mention lawn darts by name but it does kind of throw a wrench into 9th Amendment arguments. One would think we have a Constitutional right to lawn darts even if they are not mentioned. Maybe it has never been challenged because no one wants lawn darts anyway?
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Old 14th November 2017, 03:53 PM   #362
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Banning lawn darts is closer to banning lead paint..

Banning guns = banning automobiles...
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Old 14th November 2017, 04:02 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Banning lawn darts is closer to banning lead paint..

Banning guns = banning automobiles...
Banning lawn darts = banning swimming pools in that they are both recreational items that can cause death and injury when they are used for their intended purposes. I think it's crazy that lawn darts are banned in the USA, of all places. I just don't think 1)most people know this is the case and 2)most people care all that much about lawn darts. I certainly didn't know this and I really don't care about lawn darts enough to fight it in court.
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Old 14th November 2017, 05:55 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Where I live angling is a tradition, but I don't keep my fishing tackle in the bedroom.

The fact that you keep a shotgun in the bedroom gives the stark, unequivocal message that you do live in fear of something, despite the safe nature of your neighbourhood.
The threat is not zero! I guess the fundamental difference is you ask why and I ask why not? My answer is because I can.
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Old 14th November 2017, 06:08 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I just ran across a story that said the US banned lawn darts in 1988 because some people were hurt and killed. On the one hand, I guess it shows we won't tolerate some deaths. OTOH, WE BANNED LAWN DARTS BECAUSE OF A FEW ACCIDENTS?!? WTF is wrong with us?!?
The lawn dart injury rate is far down the on the list of things we have hurting or killing people in the USA. Lawn darts were banned because no one really put up a fight, right or wrong.

The ban on lawn darts as far as I can tell is a civil matter relating to their retail sale only. I don't think anyone ever went to jail for possession of a lawn dart.

Lawn darts vs guns? I played with lawn darts like I played with horseshoes; we threw them towards the other players standing near the opposing ring/stake. No one (sane ones anyway) shoots guns like that for recreation.

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Old 14th November 2017, 07:39 PM   #366
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It only took one or two lawn dart litigations to put lawn darts out of business..

You can still make all of the personal lawn darts you want....
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Old 14th November 2017, 07:43 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
It is a freaking tradition and most folks have gun for hunting and other sports activities.
So the shooting of innocents is just the price we pay for your traditions and fun times?
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Old 15th November 2017, 01:54 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
I live in a safe neighborhood with no crime for many years, yet I do keep a shotgun in my bedroom in a safe condition.
Why? If it's "just in case" then that is fear.

Quote:
I do carry a concealed firearm on a frequent basis, but that doesn't mean I am in fear.
If you're not in fear why would you ever feel the need to carry a firearm? What possible use does a concealed firearm have if you live in a safe place?

Quote:
If I knew I might need a firearm at anywhere I go, It wouldn't go there. I am cautious, but I am not in fear.
So you are only carrying a firearm to safe places? This makes no sense. Why would you carry a deadly weapon to a safe place?
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Old 15th November 2017, 02:04 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
...snip...

So you are only carrying a firearm to safe places? This makes no sense. Why would you carry a deadly weapon to a safe place?
Not only that it would be making the "safe place" less safe - as there is anything but a zero percent risk that the gun may be the cause of an accidental injury or worse.
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Old 15th November 2017, 02:27 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
The threat is not zero! I guess the fundamental difference is you ask why and I ask why not? My answer is because I can.
And that's the problem. The "sod-the-rest-of-you" attitude to your own society is why the USA is in this mess in the first place.

One man walking around in a crowd with a gun may make him personally feel safer, but it most definitely makes the rest of the crowd less safe. The rest of the crowd know this, and quite rightly say "I've got to make myself more safe", get a gun, and everyone is even less safe. That, in a nutshell, is the cause of the ****-up, but so long as "I'm all right Jack" is the prevailing attitude then, as Nessie says, the problem is insoluble.
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Old 15th November 2017, 02:37 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
And that's the problem. The "sod-the-rest-of-you" attitude to your own society is why the USA is in this mess in the first place.

One man walking around in a crowd may make him personally feel safer, but it most definitely makes the rest of the crowd less safe. The rest of the crowd know this, and quite rightly say "I've got to make myself more safe", get a gun, and everyone is even less safe. That, in a nutshell, is the cause of the ****-up, but so long as "I'm all right Jack" is the prevailing attitude then, as Nessie says, the problem is insoluble.
I don't think it is quite "sod you", more that in American society people are expected to do more for themselves than we in the UK expect. There is less expectation in the USA that the state will act to deal with issues, from the council amenities such as keeping paths outside houses clear all the way to universal health care and including that the police have a duty to protect life. There is more need in the USA to do it yourself, keep your own path clear, make sure you have provided for your own healthcare and your own protection if your life is in danger.

So, people in the USA act in their own interest than the community interest when it come to guns.
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Old 15th November 2017, 02:56 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I don't think it is quite "sod you", more that in American society people are expected to do more for themselves than we in the UK expect. There is less expectation in the USA that the state will act to deal with issues, from the council amenities such as keeping paths outside houses clear all the way to universal health care and including that the police have a duty to protect life. There is more need in the USA to do it yourself, keep your own path clear, make sure you have provided for your own healthcare and your own protection if your life is in danger.

So, people in the USA act in their own interest than the community interest when it come to guns.
Less than 30% of Americans have this disorder. Coincidentally, those people tend to be gun owners and Trump supporters. The rest of us know that we need to rely on each other, through the government, to make society work. Most people in America want universal health care, most of us want public works, public parks and a public infrastructure.
However, among the 30% are the 1% of the wealthy that could care less and who own most members of Congress.
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Old 15th November 2017, 03:08 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I don't think it is quite "sod you", more that in American society people are expected to do more for themselves than we in the UK expect. There is less expectation in the USA that the state will act to deal with issues, from the council amenities such as keeping paths outside houses clear all the way to universal health care and including that the police have a duty to protect life. There is more need in the USA to do it yourself, keep your own path clear, make sure you have provided for your own healthcare and your own protection if your life is in danger.

So, people in the USA act in their own interest than the community interest when it come to guns.
Sorry mate, but I think that is some serious grasping at straws for excuses making





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Old 15th November 2017, 04:16 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
But now I think the smartest thing for me to do in a home invasion is to go out the back door and run. Note that I live alone, no kids or anyone else to defend. I mean do I want to live or be a bad-ass? Run = live.

I also would not want to have to live with the fact that I killed someone. I'm pretty sure it would haunt me even if I were totally justified.

On the other hand, if certain items of mine were stolen it could literally ruin my life and livelihood, and that in my opinion is worth lethal defense. Sorry buddy, you made the choice to try and destroy my life. I work damn hard and nobody is going to just take that from me.
Your final paragraph (as quoted here) really jumped out at me, especially due to the contrast to the previous two, do you really consider that replacing these items would be harder than living with the life long after effects if taking a human life? Is life in American society really so difficult that a single material setback, entirely not your fault, could disadvantage you so badly that it's worth killing (or risking being killed) over? Not to be flippant, but shouldn't anything that valuable be insured for replacement?
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Old 15th November 2017, 04:29 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Is life in American society really so difficult that a single material setback, entirely not your fault, could disadvantage you so badly that it's worth killing (or risking being killed) over?
Only the ultra-wealthy are free from this. The rest of us are just one accident or illness away from bankruptcy. It's been arranged by conservatives to ensure that only the wealthy can be secure and happy. The rest of us handle the stress of insecurity in different ways, guns seems to be the preferred choice of a few.
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Old 15th November 2017, 04:37 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I don't see a contradiction. It's a minor concern -in that the likelihood is that nothing will ever happen- but it never hurts to be ready just in case.

I think the argument is that, statistically, over the whole of the population, yes, it does hurt.
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Old 15th November 2017, 04:42 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think the argument is that, statistically, over the whole of the population, yes, it does hurt.
Yes, but the individual gun owner never thinks that a bad thing could happen with their gun or because of their gun.
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:03 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Only the ultra-wealthy are free from this. The rest of us are just one accident or illness away from bankruptcy. It's been arranged by conservatives to ensure that only the wealthy can be secure and happy. The rest of us handle the stress of insecurity in different ways, guns seems to be the preferred choice of a few.
Untrue. I'm not wealthy but have good health insurance that has allowed my family to weather several serious injuries/illnesses without risking our livelihood. Why are you making up bizarre claims you have no reason to believe?

I'm not using my guns as a coping mechanism.
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:12 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Untrue. I'm not wealthy but have good health insurance that has allowed my family to weather several serious injuries/illnesses without risking our livelihood. Why are you making up bizarre claims you have no reason to believe?

I'm not using my guns as a coping mechanism.
It is true. It doesn't matter how good your insurance is, if an illness or injury is serious enough, it can bankrupt you. Well, maybe not so much with the ACA in place, but it can very much impact finances.
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:23 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Untrue. I'm not wealthy but have good health insurance that has allowed my family to weather several serious injuries/illnesses without risking our livelihood. Why are you making up bizarre claims you have no reason to believe?

I'm not using my guns as a coping mechanism.
Because politics and Trump.
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:28 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Because politics and Trump.
http://nypost.com/2017/01/12/majorit...inancial-ruin/

Most Americans are one emergency away from bankruptcy. We should be insecure.
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:57 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Only the ultra-wealthy are free from this. The rest of us are just one accident or illness away from bankruptcy. It's been arranged by conservatives to ensure that only the wealthy can be secure and happy.
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
It is true. It doesn't matter how good your insurance is, if an illness or injury is serious enough, it can bankrupt you. Well, maybe not so much with the ACA in place, but it can very much impact finances.
Bolding mine.

I'm not really interested in seeing your goalpost shifting or backpedaling. I'd rather hear why we're supposed to be stupid enough to believe your claim.

I'm not really affected by the ACA for the most part. My coverage and premiums have remained nearly unchanged from 2003 to the present. I've never been wealthy as my sole sources of income have been from the military (up to E-6) and a federal service job (GS-10) which is middle class, not wealthy.

I am secure and happy. Why do you think I would be otherwise?

ETA; changed date from 2033 to 2003. thanks 3point14

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Old 15th November 2017, 08:25 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Bolding mine.

I'm not really interested in seeing your goalpost shifting or backpedaling. I'd rather hear why we're supposed to be stupid enough to believe your claim.

I'm not really affected by the ACA for the most part. My coverage and premiums have remained nearly unchanged from 2033 to the present. I've never been wealthy as my sole sources of income have been from the military (up to E-6) and a federal service job (GS-10) which is middle class, not wealthy.

I am secure and happy. Why do you think I would be otherwise?

Er, small error with the date there?
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Old 15th November 2017, 09:43 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Er, small error with the date there?
It's "Obama Cover 2025"* though Kyle Reese Insurance Ltd.

* In 2020 the two term limit will be repealed due to a cross party consensus that whether his successor's claims that "everything is Obama's fault" were true or not
not
there was only one person everyone agreed could probably put it right. Oh, and he also stopped SkyNet although in the current reality it's powered by an upload of Trump's brain and is called "HairNet".
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Old 15th November 2017, 09:53 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Bolding mine.

I'm not really interested in seeing your goalpost shifting or backpedaling. I'd rather hear why we're supposed to be stupid enough to believe your claim.

I'm not really affected by the ACA for the most part. My coverage and premiums have remained nearly unchanged from 2003 to the present. I've never been wealthy as my sole sources of income have been from the military (up to E-6) and a federal service job (GS-10) which is middle class, not wealthy.

I am secure and happy. Why do you think I would be otherwise?

ETA; changed date from 2033 to 2003. thanks 3point14
Presumably that means you have Veteran's insurance, is your family covered by that?
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Old 15th November 2017, 11:19 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Presumably that means you have Veteran's insurance, is your family covered by that?
Tricare Prime; family coverage is <$600/year. But since I'm not wealthy, TBK has seen fit to claim that I'm one illness away from financial ruin.
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Old 15th November 2017, 11:28 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
The lawn dart injury rate is far down the on the list of things we have hurting or killing people in the USA. Lawn darts were banned because no one really put up a fight, right or wrong.
When lawn darts were banned for sale 29 years ago it was prompted by thousands of injuries, hundreds of serious injuries and the death of three children. Considering it was manufactured and sold as a toy the death of children is an automatic ban for that product type.

Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
The ban on lawn darts as far as I can tell is a civil matter relating to their retail sale only. I don't think anyone ever went to jail for possession of a lawn dart.
Absolutely correct, they are banned form being sold as toys for average citizens by companies. They are 100% legal to possess and if you have an old set it is legal to give or sell that set to someone else.

Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Lawn darts vs guns? I played with lawn darts like I played with horseshoes; we threw them towards the other players standing near the opposing ring/stake. No one (sane ones anyway) shoots guns like that for recreation.
BTW, if somehow horseshoes caused the deaths of multiple children it is very likely we would ban their sale as toys too.
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Old 15th November 2017, 11:42 AM   #388
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I was looking for horseshoes injuries and found this website; http://dailybonnet.com/horseshoes-re...ies-soar-2017/

I don't know of any horseshoe related deaths, but it seems to not be risk free with over 1000 injuries in 2012. https://www.fastmed.com/health-resou...now-the-risks/
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Old 15th November 2017, 11:54 AM   #389
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Just checked. It seems we're allowed lawn darts in the UK, so long as we don't carry them as weapons anyway!
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Old 15th November 2017, 11:55 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I was looking for horseshoes injuries and found this website; http://dailybonnet.com/horseshoes-re...ies-soar-2017/

I don't know of any horseshoe related deaths, but it seems to not be risk free with over 1000 injuries in 2012. https://www.fastmed.com/health-resou...now-the-risks/
As long as there are no deaths of children there will not be a ban on horseshoes. The moment we have a few children die from them, horseshoes will be banned from the toy product category. At that point they will be re-classified by the manufacturers to be treated like javelins, throwing hammers, etc. Sports related items that can easily cause death when not handled properly or the game area is not properly supervised.

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Old 15th November 2017, 12:31 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
As long as there are no deaths of children there will not be a ban on horseshoes. The moment we have a few children die from them, horseshoes will be banned from the toy product category. At that point they will be re-classified by the manufacturers to be treated like javelins, throwing hammers, etc. Sports related items that can easily cause death when not handled properly or the game area is not properly supervised.
3-4 kids die every year from baseball injuries which seems to be a hell of a lot more than have ever died from lawn darts. We haven't banned sales of baseball equipment yet.

The case of lawn darts is very strange to me. Looked at in isolation, it seems to argue against the idea that the US doesn't act when kids are killed. But in the larger context, it is an outlier in US policy. Looking deeper, it seems the ban was effected by the efforts of one parent.
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Old 15th November 2017, 01:14 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
As an example Massachusetts has some of the toughest gun control laws in the US. We also have one of the lowest rates of death by gun in the US (#2 in 2013, 1/3rd the national average) and very few mass shootings in our history (2 dead in 1992 & 7 dead in 2000).
One Democrat wants to make them less tough. http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/...6fN/story.html
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A committee endorsement seems likely because Senator Michael Moore, the Millbury Democrat who heads the committee, is pushing to drop the ban. He has heard from hunters and target shooters in his district who want to use silencers.
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:35 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
One Democrat wants to make them less tough. http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/...6fN/story.html
That's good news, silencers do not materially contribute to gun deaths and they positively impact noise pollution. Sen Moore was my state Senator until a recent re-districting, I always voted for him.

Last edited by paulhutch; 16th November 2017 at 04:42 AM. Reason: Spelling error correction
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:37 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
That's good news, silencers do not materially contribute to gun deaths and they positively impact noise pollution. Sen Moore was my state Senator until a recent re-distracting, I always voted for him.
If movies have taught me anything, it's that you don't need a silencer. A hastily grabbed cushion held over the end of the barrel will suffice. I'm sure I've seen Bond do it, so it must be true.
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:09 PM   #395
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I was always of the opinion that the "pillow as a silencer" was a lousy idea. I watched a Youtube video of a guy putting it to the test. It did significantly lower the noise; but it's still a sucky idea.
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Old Today, 01:09 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Bolding mine.

I'm not really interested in seeing your goalpost shifting or backpedaling. I'd rather hear why we're supposed to be stupid enough to believe your claim.
It should be obvious that an illness would have to be serious to cause bankruptcy.
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