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Tags birtherism , Breitbart.com , donald trump , media criticism , Obama Conspiracies , Trump controversies

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Old 30th December 2016, 01:00 AM   #121
WilliamSeger
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If it wasn't secret why was is not known?
"Secret African" is entirely appropriate because they accuse Obama and his mother of going to extraordinary lengths to hide his birthplace (as if he should ashamed of being born in Kenya), so he wasn't just an African but a dishonest one that couldn't be trusted.
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Old 30th December 2016, 04:17 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
As far as I know, you are correct and legal precedence supports you.
What legal precedent is there concerning "natural born citizens" in the U.S.? I thought the clause had never been challenged.

Are really all kids of U.S. citizens citizens at birth? I seem to recall an expat friend of mine mentioning having to go to the embassy for his daughter, born in Sweden, to become a citizen, noting that it was not a mere matter of registration but actual naturalization.
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Old 30th December 2016, 07:45 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
The problem is that the explicit language is a term with the common-law meaning "born within U.S. territory". Lex terra, not sanguina. So you still need a justification for stretching the meaning of the term.
Evidently, many constitutional scholars think that there is such a justification, but I don't know what it is, nor the source of the common-law meaning to which you allude.
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Old 30th December 2016, 07:48 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
What legal precedent is there concerning "natural born citizens" in the U.S.? I thought the clause had never been challenged.

Are really all kids of U.S. citizens citizens at birth? I seem to recall an expat friend of mine mentioning having to go to the embassy for his daughter, born in Sweden, to become a citizen, noting that it was not a mere matter of registration but actual naturalization.
I think he misused the term "naturalization". Every child of a U.S. citizen is a citizen, but it is not surprising that one would have to notify the embassy so that the U.S. would recognize this fact.
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Old 30th December 2016, 07:50 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
What is the point of that statement in reference to the subject here? Are you actually still suggesting that Obama might have been born in Africa? That is the subject of this thread: birtherism. It is not about whether Obama is good or bad, smart or stupid, clever or confused, right or wrong. It's about the contention that he was born in Africa and criminally concealed that fact from the public.

Pipeline Audio: the issue here is the contention that Obama was born in Africa and was not a natural born citizen. I realize questions (also stupid ones, in my view, given the rules for citizenship) were raised about McCain's birth in the Panama Canal zone, but that is not the question here. Nobody ever accused McCain of having been born in Africa and lying about it.
I added the highlighted, because I think that's what you intended. It is not controversial in the slightest that Obama is a citizen, because his mother was a citizen at the time of his birth. Some seem to be concerned about whether he counts as natural-born.

But not Trump. He settled it.
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Old 30th December 2016, 08:38 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
But not Trump. He settled it.
I hope you are being sarcastic, because saying Trump settled the Birther crap is like saying you got the salad with a single burnt crouton removed by flinging your poo into the bowl.
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Old 30th December 2016, 08:43 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
I hope you are being sarcastic, because saying Trump settled the Birther crap is like saying you got the salad with a single burnt crouton removed by flinging your poo into the bowl.
I thought the sarcasm was clear from context. Sorry, I don't use smiley faces. I'd rather have an occasional misunderstanding than to infantilize my fellow forum members.

Last edited by phiwum; 30th December 2016 at 08:45 AM.
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Old 30th December 2016, 08:59 AM   #128
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Birthers are conspiracy theorists. Not sure you can make the leap that it is simply a racial issue and not a run of the mill conspiracy theory with all the obvious denials and deeper plot turns when evidence to the contrary is presented.

Saying that evidence is ignored simply because 'they're racists' itself ignores the very routine way conspiracy theorists respond to challenges to their idea. Short form? Anyone can fake that! Newpaper annoucing his birth? Guess they have been planning his rise to power since birth! How far does this rabbit hole go!?!

You can parallel the behavior of birthers with any other conspiracy theory followers without the need to add racial intent into the mix.

Although, spending any time on birther sites/forums etc. it would be no stretch to view a majority of those posting and responding as being racist. So.. hmm.
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Old 30th December 2016, 09:14 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I thought the sarcasm was clear from context. Sorry, I don't use smiley faces. I'd rather have an occasional misunderstanding than to infantilize my fellow forum members.
Fair enough.
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Old 30th December 2016, 09:47 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I thought the sarcasm was clear from context. Sorry, I don't use smiley faces. I'd rather have an occasional misunderstanding than to infantilize my fellow forum members.
Not to everyone. Take a peek at MichelH's thread. The "sarcasm blindness" is more than stunning, it's outright scary.
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Old 30th December 2016, 09:55 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I thought the sarcasm was clear from context. Sorry, I don't use smiley faces. I'd rather have an occasional misunderstanding than to infantilize my fellow forum members.
Infantilize?
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Old 30th December 2016, 10:17 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Birthers are conspiracy theorists. Not sure you can make the leap that it is simply a racial issue and not a run of the mill conspiracy theory with all the obvious denials and deeper plot turns when evidence to the contrary is presented.

Saying that evidence is ignored simply because 'they're racists' itself ignores the very routine way conspiracy theorists respond to challenges to their idea. Short form? Anyone can fake that! Newpaper annoucing his birth? Guess they have been planning his rise to power since birth! How far does this rabbit hole go!?!

You can parallel the behavior of birthers with any other conspiracy theory followers without the need to add racial intent into the mix.

Although, spending any time on birther sites/forums etc. it would be no stretch to view a majority of those posting and responding as being racist. So.. hmm.
So they're bigots, *and* conspiracy theorists. The combo makes sense to me.
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Old 30th December 2016, 10:22 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Infantilize?
For reasons unexplained, he/she regards the oil that greases text only communication as childish. Why? No idea.
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Old 30th December 2016, 10:48 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
What is the point of that statement in reference to the subject here? Are you actually still suggesting that Obama might have been born in Africa? That is the subject of this thread: birtherism. It is not about whether Obama is good or bad, smart or stupid, clever or confused, right or wrong. It's about the contention that he was born in Africa and criminally concealed that fact from the public.

Pipeline Audio: the issue here is the contention that Obama was born in Africa and was not a citizen. I realize questions (also stupid ones, in my view, given the rules for citizenship) were raised about McCain's birth in the Panama Canal zone, but that is not the question here. Nobody ever accused McCain of having been born in Africa and lying about it.
No actually it's about Trump and birtherism, Trump declared it over. I'm just cleaning up a few leftist narratives that it was somehow all due to racism.
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Old 30th December 2016, 10:53 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Not to everyone. Take a peek at MichelH's thread. The "sarcasm blindness" is more than stunning, it's outright scary.
I would never use sarcasm in that thread. Indeed, even literal posts are badly misinterpreted, so best not to post at all.
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Old 30th December 2016, 10:55 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Infantilize?
It's not in my spell checker, but it's in an online dictionary.
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Old 30th December 2016, 10:59 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
For reasons unexplained, he/she regards the oil that greases text only communication as childish. Why? No idea.
He.

Because Swift didn't need it, nor did countless sarcastic bastards prior to the late 1990s. I'll grant that this particular exchange could mislead, but I don't want to use cartoons in order to make my written word clear.

Matter of pride, I suppose, but to hell with smiley faces. Once you begin to rely on them, you express yourself less clearly rather than more.
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Old 30th December 2016, 11:20 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
He.

Because Swift didn't need it, nor did countless sarcastic bastards prior to the late 1990s. I'll grant that this particular exchange could mislead, but I don't want to use cartoons in order to make my written word clear.

Matter of pride, I suppose, but to hell with smiley faces. Once you begin to rely on them, you express yourself less clearly rather than more.
But you use commas and periods and question marks? All to help people understand what you want to convey?
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Old 30th December 2016, 01:33 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I'm just cleaning up a few leftist narratives that it was somehow all due to racism.
Your 'cleanup' seems to consist entirely of 'Nuh-uh! Lib'rals always say racism!' so I would say you are doing rather poorly on that account.
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Old 30th December 2016, 01:34 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
For that matter, Trump only started talking about it years after it was proven beyond reasonable doubt that Obama was born in Hawaii. And he had also whined about how Obama could not have received good grades, how his memoirs must have been written by a white guy, and so forth. This is standard racist claptrap that has been said about successful black people over and over again (we needed a constitutional amendment to take care of the "you aren't a citizen" thing), and often about other non-white people as well.
Well, the part about the grades and the white guy writing the memoirs may or may not be racism. But it sure looks like projection on Trump's part.
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Old 30th December 2016, 04:53 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Your 'cleanup' seems to consist entirely of 'Nuh-uh! Lib'rals always say racism!' so I would say you are doing rather poorly on that account.
Worse than that. Logger is propagating a slew of fact-free claims emanating from the periphery of birtherism. According to logger:

* Obama was a Muslim
* Obama isn't a Christian present tense
* Obama is sympathetic to terrorism
* Challenges to Obama's citizenship was just routine politics, no different than the challenge to Cruz

Essentially, the paranoid, fact-free fantasy known as birtherism marches on. Naturally this is all wrapped with infantile neenering -- it's logger after all.
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Old 30th December 2016, 05:05 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Worse than that. Logger is propagating a slew of fact-free claims emanating from the periphery of birtherism. According to logger:

* Obama was a Muslim
* Obama isn't a Christian present tense
* Obama is sympathetic to terrorism
* Challenges to Obama's citizenship was just routine politics, no different than the challenge to Cruz
Obama is in control of those, only he can reinforce what people think about him. As far as the racism charge, once again you have no evidence!
Quote:
Essentially, the paranoid, fact-free fantasy known as birtherism marches on. Naturally this is all wrapped with infantile neenering -- it's logger after all.
No actually it isn't marching on, Trump killed it. The only thing that marches on is your sides lies about it being about race.
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Old 30th December 2016, 05:07 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Your 'cleanup' seems to consist entirely of 'Nuh-uh! Lib'rals always say racism!' so I would say you are doing rather poorly on that account.
Poorly?

No one seems to be able to prove the racism meme? That might be your first clue!
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Old 30th December 2016, 06:23 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Poorly?

No one seems to be able to prove the racism meme? That might be your first clue!
It's been well demonstrated and explained but you reject the evidence. Not much we can do after that except roll our while you do your imagined victory lap.
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Old 30th December 2016, 06:28 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
It's been well demonstrated and explained but you reject the evidence. Not much we can do after that except roll our while you do your imagined victory lap.
Lol

By all means, put up the evidence!

Leftists demonstrating and explaining doesn't show much for a skeptic. Shows a lot of misplaced emotion.
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Old 30th December 2016, 06:31 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I would never use sarcasm in that thread. Indeed, even literal posts are badly misinterpreted, so best not to post at all.
Not posting in itself is interpreted as agreement quite often. It is very bizarre. In any event, we have an individual who admits mental illness but refuses meds.

Shall we wash our hands? Or at least attempt to assist? Personally, I prefer to at least attempt to assist. Nevertheless, there comes a point where one must cut ones losses. Sometimes, a person simply wants to wallow in their own mire. I have seen it several times. When that happens, there is no talking out the individual. They will resist at all costs because it is their identity. I have seen this happen. Friends of mine (not members here) have dropped of into a blue funk. Some have come back, some have not. And one cannot tell beforehand.

Such is life. I cannot claim to any degree of perfection either. My ex only has to say certain things to mess me up. I don't believe it to be intentional, likely there are things I say that wind her up. Such is life.

How does this apply to Trump? Well, pro or con matters not. One can have whatever opinion without a divorce. It is a safe controversy. A vent, if you will.

To this day I have no clue what my hex wife's political views are, or were. For all I know she was a trump cheerleader or a clinton cheerleader
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Old 30th December 2016, 06:56 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Lol

By all means, put up the evidence!

Leftists demonstrating and explaining doesn't show much for a skeptic. Shows a lot of misplaced emotion.

Demonstrating and explaining doesn't show...

What would you accept as evidence? This is one of the key aspects of a true critical thinker. Is there anything conceivable that would make you change your mind?
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Old 30th December 2016, 07:15 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Demonstrating and explaining doesn't show...

What would you accept as evidence? This is one of the key aspects of a true critical thinker. Is there anything conceivable that would make you change your mind?
Lol
How about evidence? How about demonstrating with evidence instead of explaining in the usual leftist way like, "it just had to be racism because there is no other reason"

Except plain ol simple politics.
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Old 30th December 2016, 07:20 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Demonstrating and explaining doesn't show...

What would you accept as evidence? This is one of the key aspects of a true critical thinker. Is there anything conceivable that would make you change your mind?
Lol
How about evidence? How about demonstrating with evidence instead of explaining in the usual leftist way like, "it just had to be racism because there is no other reason"

Except plain ol simple politics.
Your answer is that there is no evidence which you would accept. Rightio then.
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Old 30th December 2016, 07:24 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Lol
How about evidence? How about demonstrating with evidence instead of explaining in the usual leftist way like, "it just had to be racism because there is no other reason"

Except plain ol simple politics.
What would that evidence look like? What are the requirements, the metrics, you would accept or reject that evidence on?

You're asking for evidence and rejecting what others consider evidence, but refusing to even hint at the nature of the evidence you seek?
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Old 30th December 2016, 07:26 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
What would that evidence look like? What are the requirements, the metrics, you would accept or reject that evidence on?

You're asking for evidence and rejecting what others consider evidence, but refusing to even hint at the nature of the evidence you seek?
That would be a start, what others think is evidence, go.
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Old 30th December 2016, 07:27 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Your answer is that there is no evidence which you would accept. Rightio then.
Actually, there isn't any evidence at all.
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Old 30th December 2016, 07:28 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Lol
How about evidence? How about demonstrating with evidence instead of explaining in the usual leftist way like, "it just had to be racism because there is no other reason"

Except plain ol simple politics.
Seeing as you're on record that this comment is not racist...

Originally Posted by Carl Paladino
Iíd like her [Michelle Obama] to return to being a male and let loose in the outback of Zimbabwe where she lives comfortably in a cave with Maxie, the gorilla.
... I accept that your views on racism are so rigidly whacked out that nothing would convince you.
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Old 30th December 2016, 07:33 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Seeing as you're on record that this comment is not racist...

... I accept that your views on racism are so rigidly whacked out that nothing would convince you.
I accept that you're incapable of arguing a point without insulting. Other then another thread derail which is typical of you. Why don't you explain to us how that is racist, what is Mr paladino trying to say?

Is her being a male somehow racist? Or is it living in a cave with a gorilla?
And how does this actually square with the bertherism issue?

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Old 31st December 2016, 02:40 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
That would be a start, what others think is evidence, go.
You've already rejected it, which is the entire reason we're trying to establish what kind of evidence would hypothetically change your mind.

How do you know something is racist? How do you recognize racism when you see it? What criteria do you use? What is the nature of the evidence you, yourself, use and accept for racism? What reasoning do you use to establish something as racism? Have you ever even thought about it?
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Old 31st December 2016, 02:49 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I accept that you're incapable of arguing a point without insulting. Other then another thread derail which is typical of you. Why don't you explain to us how that is racist, what is Mr paladino trying to say?

Is her being a male somehow racist? Or is it living in a cave with a gorilla?
And how does this actually square with the bertherism issue?
You cannot be serious.

Tell you what, how about walking up to a person of colour and suggest they move to the jungle with a gorilla? Throw in a "boy" or two.
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Old 31st December 2016, 03:12 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
You've already rejected it, which is the entire reason we're trying to establish what kind of evidence would hypothetically change your mind.
Rejected evidence? You mean your opinion that it couldn't be anything else, is that your evidence?
Quote:
How do you know something is racist? How do you recognize racism when you see it? What criteria do you use? What is the nature of the evidence you, yourself, use and accept for racism? What reasoning do you use to establish something as racism? Have you ever even thought about it?
It's not about me, you and others have said the evidence shows bertherism is racist. I've said no, its political. Show your evidence of it being racist.
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Old 31st December 2016, 03:14 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You cannot be serious.

Tell you what, how about walking up to a person of colour and suggest they move to the jungle with a gorilla? Throw in a "boy" or two.
I wouldn't do that because it's not a very nice thing to say. What about the part about her being a man? That racist too?
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Old 31st December 2016, 03:21 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I wouldn't do that because it's not a very nice thing to say. What about the part about her being a man? That racist too?
It doesn't need to be. The gorilla bit is sufficient.
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Old 31st December 2016, 03:24 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
It doesn't need to be. The gorilla bit is sufficient.
It certainly isn't something he should have said, she's always struck me as a very nice person, a bit deceived but always nice.
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