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Tags Amy Siskind , bloggers , donald trump , media criticism , Trump controversies

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Old 1st July 2017, 04:49 PM   #81
CapelDodger
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
You're wrong. It may not be worse, but the situation today is unlike any before. Nobody knows how it will turn out because we haven't been here before.
Technically that's true every glad morn, but yes indeed, these are the most transitional times I have ever known in my sixty-odd years.

Quote:
But if we are just talking about 'tougher', compared to past generations we have never had it so good.
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Old 1st July 2017, 04:53 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I agree with GilbertSyndrome. Everyone thinks their generation has/had it tougher.
Mine doesn't. My generation worries that its children and grandchildren won't have it better than them, they way they have.
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Old 1st July 2017, 07:48 PM   #83
thaiboxerken
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Trump wants voting history of everyone in the USA, including who you voted for and your political affiliations.

But don't worry, this is just more doom porn....
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Old 2nd July 2017, 07:42 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
You're wrong. It may not be worse, but the situation today is unlike any before. Nobody knows how it will turn out because we haven't been here before.
Every generation is in a situation that is unique, though. Every generation is in a position where they've never truly been before. History is rife with examples of having been on the edge in terms of the political landscape and constantly being on the brink of war.

I'd hazard a guess that in ten years time it'll be a new unique situation that we've not been in before, and we'll be on the brink of war, the political landscape will be just as muddled and unclear, and people will be talking about the end-times.

I get the worry, to an extent, but I think that it's a little OTT. I don't see Trump bringing the world to its knees any more than I see Gary Glitter getting a job as Santa in Harrods during the festive holiday season.
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Old 2nd July 2017, 08:54 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Trump wants voting history of everyone in the USA, including who you voted for and your political affiliations.

But don't worry, this is just more doom porn....
Link?
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Old 2nd July 2017, 09:35 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Link?

Trump election panel asks all 50 states for voter roll data
The vice chairman of President Trump’s commission on election integrity sent a letter to all 50 states Wednesday requesting information on their voter rolls.

Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach is seeking several pieces of information about voters, including their names, birthdays, the last four digits of their Social Security numbers and their voting history dating back to 2006.
The mitigating factor is that the request is, apparently, for any of that information which is already publicly available according to the laws of the state.
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Old 2nd July 2017, 10:53 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Trump election panel asks all 50 states for voter roll data
The vice chairman of President Trump’s commission on election integrity sent a letter to all 50 states Wednesday requesting information on their voter rolls.

Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach is seeking several pieces of information about voters, including their names, birthdays, the last four digits of their Social Security numbers and their voting history dating back to 2006.
The mitigating factor is that the request is, apparently, for any of that information which is already publicly available according to the laws of the state.
OMG!!! The Federal Government is going to know the last 4 digits of my SSN!!!!???

And they only asked for publicly available data according to existing law?!


In non-chicken little world:
They are going to check (non-citizen) voter fraud. i.e.:
- who voted (personal ID)
- when voted (history)(note: as I understand it, this wont tell them WHO you voted for, just that you voted, so it's not a big deal)
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Old 2nd July 2017, 11:13 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
OMG!!! The Federal Government is going to know the last 4 digits of my SSN!!!!???

And they only asked for publicly available data according to existing law?!


In non-chicken little world:
They are going to check (non-citizen) voter fraud. i.e.:
- who voted (personal ID)
- when voted (history)(note: as I understand it, this wont tell them WHO you voted for, just that you voted, so it's not a big deal)

Interestingly, Kobach has said that Kansas law prohibits him from complying with his own demand.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.07f20af947b4

Elections have always been state government functions. There is no evidence that there has ever been any problem with voters pretending to be other voters, and there is no basis for the federal government to be demanding any personal information about voters, especially when it is clearly, indisputably intended to help voter suppression/intimidation efforts. This is all part of Trump's "I would have won except for all those illegal voters" craziness.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...errifying.html
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-s...sed-fraudulent
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Old 2nd July 2017, 11:22 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Trump wants voting history of everyone in the USA, including who you voted for and your political affiliations.
thaiboxerken, if your state government is keeping a record of who you voted for, Donald Trump is the least of your problems.

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
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Old 2nd July 2017, 11:33 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The "doom porn" is a list of news articles detailing, among other things, how a foreign power influenced, hacked and possibly altered the result of the 2016 election, and how the resulting winner of that election is effectively dismantling oversight and checks and balances.
Yeah, these three (the first three cited in the WaPo article) really make me think we are on the verge of the Fourth Reich:

Quote:
Monday, in a bizarre display in front of cameras, Trump’s cabinet members took turns praising him.”

“AP reported that a company that partners with both Trump and (son-in-law) Jared Kushner is a finalist for a $1.7bn contract to build the new FBI building.

Vice President Pence hired a big-name “lawyer with Watergate experience to represent him in the Russian probe.”
I mean, you can almost hear the band striking up Deutschland Uber Alles!
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Old 2nd July 2017, 11:36 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Mine doesn't. My generation worries that its children and grandchildren won't have it better than them, they way they have.
That's been true for the last few generations already. I think the "baby boomers" were the last generation that did better than their parents, if such a stat actually exists.

I think all the crybabies - the far left members who are getting all the press - are making it seem like the end of the world.
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Old 2nd July 2017, 02:22 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Yeah, these three (the first three cited in the WaPo article) really make me think we are on the verge of the Fourth Reich:



I mean, you can almost hear the band striking up Deutschland Uber Alles!

I'm not sure the first example is a sign of authoritarianism are not, but it is a break from the past eight years of what was considered normal behavior when, rather than the president's cabinet taking turns praising him, it was the media.


Nothing says anti-authoritarianism like forcing one of three contracting companies out of a bidding process overseen by an independent government agency because it has links to a politician one does not like. I guess the silver lining of a Vornado Reality winning bid would be the left no longer using Halliburton/Cheney as an example of corrupt government bidding processes.

Clinton and Sanders both hired hot-shot attorneys to represent them in their FBI probes, I guess that's only an indication of authoritarianism when Republicans hire attorneys. I'll reserve judgment until some "authoritarianism experts" weigh-in.

Last edited by Bogative; 2nd July 2017 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 2nd July 2017, 02:33 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post

Clinton and Sanders both hired hot-shot attorneys to represent them in their FBI probes, I guess that's only an indication of authoritarianism when Republicans hire attorneys.
Oh come on, don't you remember how hitler responded to internal challenges to his authority by hiring lawyers and letting the plaintiffs have their day in court? Totes authoritaryanism.
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Old 2nd July 2017, 11:27 PM   #94
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The Hitler comparisons are necessary to rally the more feeble-minded on the Left. As others have noted, around here it is a way of virtue-signaling.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 04:41 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You have to distinguish between the reporting and the commentary.
I think the Washington Post's commentary on Trump is a little over the top,but their reporting on him is damaging,becasue they can back it up.
But no trump supporter cares about it, as such it is to damaging to things like his approval ratings. Fake news is still fake news even if they can back up their reports with left wing facts. The trump supporters rely on alternative facts anyway.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 04:46 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
No, we didn't. GW Bush had been a successful two-term governor of Texas, and as the son of a President and grandson of a Senator his family had a long history of public service. Bush made some terrible misjudgments, but he made them within the range of normal political debate. Trump's contempt for the judiciary ("so-called judges") and the "fake news" media, his blatant racism, his demeaning our allies while pandering to our enemies, his undisguised corruption and his fundamental stupidity about basic matters of fact are unparalleled. No one could imagine that Bush could launch nuclear war out of pique; with Trump, we can't be sure.
At least he got a proper Christian Dominionist on the supreme court, that is a win for traditional american conservatives in implementing their christian state.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 04:47 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Mikemcc View Post
I agree with that, but the revelations tainted her campaign at a crucial moment and she responded poorly. Looking back it is easy to distance these things. But, at the time, there wasn't the time for reasoned responses to alter voter view points. Many just saw a privileged woman, who's campaign had distain for basic IT security, had presided over a very poor security operation in Libya, and didn't engage well with the core voters (that bit repeated by May in the UK).
While more facts about trumps sexual assault did nothing because all of his supporters knew he sexually assaults women and don't think that is a negative trait in a leader.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 04:49 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
While I have no doubt that The Orange Hair wants to betray his country and rule as an authoritarian, all the checks and balances seem to be working. The courts remain independent, the media reports what it likes and Congress doesn't seem in the thrall of the president. All in all, I think we're okay.
If by checks and balances you mean as long as the republican party finds covering for him to be less of a political cost than opposing him maybe. Certainly they don't care at all about any obstruction of justice he might have done.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 07:20 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
If by checks and balances you mean as long as the republican party finds covering for him to be less of a political cost than opposing him maybe. Certainly they don't care at all about any obstruction of justice he might have done.
There clearly are Republicans who do care and aren't in lock-step with The Hair. He's had prominent defections on the travel ban and healthcare and there's Republican support for Russia hearings. I think The Hair is trying to become an authoritarian but he's not just not succeeding at it.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 07:30 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
A blogger has recorded week-by-week all the Trump atrocities that historically have characterized the beginnings of an authoritarian takeover:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...=.ff694ff00f22
https://medium.com/@Amy_Siskind
https://public.tableau.com/profile/a...skindDashboard
The last time I saw people this worked up about the coming right-wing dictatorship was REX-84 under Reagan:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_84

The last time I saw people this worked up about the coming left-wing dictatorship was Jade Helm 15 under Obama:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_H...iracy_theories

Enough already with the predictions! either get the dictatorship up and running or get off the pot.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 07:34 AM   #101
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The persistent belief by some that the GOP are some well oiled machine backing Trump or any other republican politician flies in the face of reality. As noted in list of hitlerian moves by trump, he hasn't actually gotten anything done, despite having majorities in both houses.

My primary concern with the doomsaying is that it just gives cover to Don's actually disturbing moves. Crying, OMG its just like the Weimar Republic!" every time the GOP floats a bill or Trump plays golf or calling them murders when at most they're rolling back ACA a little bit, just ensures the majority of us will keep rolling are eyes when you start crying wolf as he gets a list of every voter in America, which is actually disturbing.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 07:34 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
There clearly are Republicans who do care and aren't in lock-step with The Hair. He's had prominent defections on the travel ban and healthcare
I'll believe it when a bill actually fails due to defections in the ranks. I agree with sts60s assessment that up to 2 senators from purple states will be allowed to vote against (and then Pence will break any resulting tie) but all the others who are currently making a lot of noise will come out and say publicly that concessions have been made which have eased their concerns and they can now support this amazingly brilliant bill 110%

Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
and there's Republican support for Russia hearings.
IMO Republican support for the Russia hearings is in the full expectation that President Trump will be exonerated. For sure some underlings may be proved to have "mis-remembered" not having had meetings with some Russian diplomats and operators but somehow it will be within their overall remits and/or not particularly important, but there will be no proof that President Trump colluded with the Russians to steal the election.

IMO any breaches will be interpretable as being "technical" and there'l be no arrests or impeachments.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 07:36 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
There clearly are Republicans who do care and aren't in lock-step with The Hair. He's had prominent defections on the travel ban and healthcare and there's Republican support for Russia hearings. I think The Hair is trying to become an authoritarian but he's not just not succeeding at it.
Not really. They had people saying in public that they would defect. They use only words not actions. You don't see republicans pushing in the testimony when say Sessions refuses to answer a question with no legal justification for it. They are pulling a McCain, it is all talk and no substance.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 07:37 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
The last time I saw people this worked up about the coming right-wing dictatorship was REX-84 under Reagan:
Reagan did have record setting corruption and imprisonment in his administration. All things that make one a saint to republicans.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 07:38 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
While more facts about trumps sexual assault did nothing because all of his supporters knew he sexually assaults women and don't think that is a negative trait in a leader.
This is such BS, there's better evidence that B. Clinton sexually assaulted women than Trump did. Hint, Trump did not say he had ever grabbed a women by the pussy.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 07:38 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO Republican support for the Russia hearings is in the full expectation that President Trump will be exonerated.
And they only support hearings that they have control over to make sure that happens.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 07:41 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
This is such BS, there's better evidence that B. Clinton sexually assaulted women than Trump did. Hint, Trump did not say he had ever grabbed a women by the pussy.
In that he only described it as actions he regularly does, like just start kissing them instead of naming specific women he has sexually assaulted. He is on record for all kinds of sexual assault, how about is bragging about barging in on the girls changing for Miss Teen USA?

You are turning a statement of "I regularly sexually assault women" into a non admission because he didn't name any specific women he sexually assaulted?
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Old 3rd July 2017, 07:42 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
The persistent belief by some that the GOP are some well oiled machine backing Trump or any other republican politician flies in the face of reality. As noted in list of hitlerian moves by trump, he hasn't actually gotten anything done, despite having majorities in both houses.
He's got plenty done

Getting Gorsuch appointed to SCOTUS will be enough of a legacy for many (one way or another depending on your political persuasion), likewise pulling out of the Paris accord, rolling back all kinds of environmental protections, and gutting Frank-Dodd.

If the GOP manage to force the healthcare legislation through then that's even more profound.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
My primary concern with the doomsaying is that it just gives cover to Don's actually disturbing moves. Crying, OMG its just like the Weimar Republic!" every time the GOP floats a bill or Trump plays golf or calling them murders when at most they're rolling back ACA a little bit, just ensures the majority of us will keep rolling are eyes when you start crying wolf as he gets a list of every voter in America, which is actually disturbing.
Personally I think that 20+ million in real risk of losing their health insurance, especially the groups most at risk is a reason to get exercised. Add a few more millions or tens of millions who will end up will useless or close to useless insurance cover and that's also bad YMMV.

W.r.t. the golf, the intention is to point out his incredible hypocrisy but of course we don't care about that any more.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 08:27 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Reagan did have record setting corruption and imprisonment in his administration. All things that make one a saint to republicans.
Great way to ignore the point.

Partisan idiots have no difficulty in recognizing the coming dictatorship from the other side of the aisle.

The only thing that changes in politics is who is doing the pointing and who is being pointed at - it's pretty much the same argument every time.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 10:49 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Great way to ignore the point.

Partisan idiots have no difficulty in recognizing the coming dictatorship from the other side of the aisle.

The only thing that changes in politics is who is doing the pointing and who is being pointed at - it's pretty much the same argument every time.
You really don't see a qualitative difference between Trump and all of his predecessors? His grotesque ignorance of pretty much everything, his crude contempt for the judiciary and the media, his rejection of established science, his encouragement of violence, his demeaning our allies and pandering to our enemies, his willingness to drop millions of people from health insurance, don't disturb you? They sure bother a lot of conservatives:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.edc42ab94999
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.d07d9e3fc35e
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.8735ff853cc4
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.c24e589c1d7c

Etc., etc.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 10:57 AM   #111
BStrong
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You really don't see a qualitative difference between Trump and all of his predecessors? His grotesque ignorance of pretty much everything, his crude contempt for the judiciary and the media, his rejection of established science, his encouragement of violence, his demeaning our allies and pandering to our enemies, his willingness to drop millions of people from health insurance, don't disturb you? They sure bother a lot of conservatives:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.edc42ab94999
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.d07d9e3fc35e
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.8735ff853cc4
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.c24e589c1d7c

Etc., etc.
I don't believe he is any type of singularity in world view, only in his presentation of his pov.

I've been hearing that the sky was falling and the end is near since the 1960's - and nothing much has changed - other than who's pointing and who they're pointing at.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 11:02 AM   #112
ahhell
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You really don't see a qualitative difference between Trump and all of his predecessors? His grotesque ignorance of pretty much everything, his crude contempt for the judiciary and the media, his rejection of established science, his encouragement of violence, his demeaning our allies and pandering to our enemies, his willingness to drop millions of people from health insurance, don't disturb you? They sure bother a lot of conservatives:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.edc42ab94999
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.d07d9e3fc35e
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.8735ff853cc4
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.c24e589c1d7c

Etc., etc.
It doesn't matter if Trump is singularly bad, as Bstrong and ironically Bill Maher have said, since folks have been claiming that every GOP president in the last 30 years was a fascist or crypto-facist, racist monster and every Dem president was a communist or crypto-communist or crypto-muslim, nobody believes it anymore. Even when we have a singularly bad president.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 11:19 AM   #113
Bob001
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I don't believe he is any type of singularity in world view, only in his presentation of his pov.

I've been hearing that the sky was falling and the end is near since the 1960's - and nothing much has changed - other than who's pointing and who they're pointing at.
Trump himself is a clown with early dementia, not a scheming political genius. But he is available to be used by the most extreme right-wing elements of the society, whose stated goal is to turn the U.S. back to the pre-FDR era. And they're winning.
http://www.salon.com/2017/07/03/dona...ig-really-big/
http://www.politicalresearch.org/201...faire-mandate/

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Old 3rd July 2017, 11:31 AM   #114
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I wouldn't call it early dementia, he is 70.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 11:35 AM   #115
BStrong
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Trump himself is a clown with early dementia, not a scheming political genius. But he is available to be used by the most extreme right-wing elements of the society, who's stated goal is to turn the U.S. back to the pre-FDR era. And they're winning.
http://www.salon.com/2017/07/03/dona...ig-really-big/
http://www.politicalresearch.org/201...faire-mandate/
I'm old enough to well remember the the hand-wringing over JFK being a Catholic and taking orders from the Pope, Goldwater was going to start WWIII if he got in, Johnson gave away the country to the Negros, Nixon stole the country and was going to start WWIII before he resigned, etc. etc.

I have no idea how old you are, maybe this is all new to you, but absent future developments, all the Trump stuff is no different than all the crap I've been hearing for near 60 years, as applied to both parties.

Do yourself a favor. Read Thomas Pynchon's Vineland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vineland

Fictionalized version of the actual hysteria surrounding REX 84.

Then read about the Jade Helm conspiracy theories from the right about President Obama.

There is nothing new under the sun, and this Trump hysteria is no different. It isn't even all that original, outside of modern communication considerations. LBJ showed his gall bladder surgery incision on TV:

http://www.art.com/products/p1671951...gery-scars.htm

Trump would tweet it.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 11:40 AM   #116
Hlafordlaes
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I don't believe he is any type of singularity in world view, only in his presentation of his pov.

I've been hearing that the sky was falling and the end is near since the 1960's - and nothing much has changed - other than who's pointing and who they're pointing at.
Good thing 'bout slippery slopes is they're like that "hot water with dumb frogs in it" thing. By which I mean, there is now a real alt-right party in the US, call it Nazi, call it what you like.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 11:44 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I'm old enough to well remember the the hand-wringing over JFK being a Catholic and taking orders from the Pope, Goldwater was going to start WWIII if he got in, Johnson gave away the country to the Negros, Nixon stole the country and was going to start WWIII before he resigned, etc. etc.
Well he did make drunken jokes about that when he was feeling down near the end of his term.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 12:04 PM   #118
Bob001
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I'm old enough to well remember the the hand-wringing over JFK being a Catholic and taking orders from the Pope, Goldwater was going to start WWIII if he got in, Johnson gave away the country to the Negros, Nixon stole the country and was going to start WWIII before he resigned, etc. etc.

I have no idea how old you are, maybe this is all new to you, but absent future developments, all the Trump stuff is no different than all the crap I've been hearing for near 60 years, as applied to both parties.
....
Lunatic conspiracy theories are one thing. But the things that Trump says from his own mouth (and his own thumb) are very much another, and you can't conflate them. You're falling back on the"they all do it" rationalization for almost anything. But they don't all do it.

For starters, nobody lies like Trump:
http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...umps-huge-lies
http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...t-brain-214658
http://www.politifact.com/personalit.../?list=speaker
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...=.572cdac379cc

And his lies are making policy, from an Interior Secretary who doesn't accept climate change to an Education Secretary who wants to kill off public schools to a SecState who has spent his life making oil deals with Russia to a sham commission looking for millions of non-existent fraudulent votes as a front for voter suppression laws. There's no conspiracy theory here; this is Trump's own record.

Last edited by Bob001; 3rd July 2017 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 01:40 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
The last time I saw people this worked up about the coming right-wing dictatorship was REX-84 under Reagan:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_84
To be fair, Rex-84 was some crazy **** that people should have been worked up about. I suppose they likely still have a contingency plan to round up american en masse, but they shouldn't.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 01:42 PM   #120
ahhell
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Lunatic conspiracy theories are one thing. But the things that Trump says from his own mouth (and his own thumb) are very much another, and you can't conflate them. You're falling back on the"they all do it" rationalization for almost anything. But they don't all do it.

For starters, nobody lies like Trump:
http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...umps-huge-lies
http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...t-brain-214658
http://www.politifact.com/personalit.../?list=speaker
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...=.572cdac379cc

And his lies are making policy, from an Interior Secretary who doesn't accept climate change to an Education Secretary who wants to kill off public schools to a SecState who has spent his life making oil deals with Russia to a sham commission looking for millions of non-existent fraudulent votes as a front for voter suppression laws. There's no conspiracy theory here; this is Trump's own record.
Its a record of bad policy, not of instituting a police state. That's the problem. Not that people oppose Trump, people should, its that they oppose Trump by claiming we are on the verge of a totalitarian regime. Which just lets those inclined to ignored Trump's bad policy roll their eyes and justify ignoring his bad policy to themselves.

Last edited by ahhell; 3rd July 2017 at 01:44 PM.
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