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Old 25th March 2019, 04:20 PM   #1
wasapi
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EMDR treatments.

I hope this works because my cut/paste thing isn't working.

www.emdr-therapy.com/emdr.html

Is anyone familiar with this therapy? My therapist is encouraging me to use it with his guidance. It requires you to be able to relax to a meditational state, and I am afraid I am too internally anxious.


It has been proven, however, to help people with PTSD, trauma, depression, addiction, and a host of other benefits.
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Old 25th March 2019, 05:50 PM   #2
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EMDR

I doubt very much that this has been "proven". Scott Lilienfeld has said, to paraphrase that "what's new about EMDR doesn't work" and what works isn't new". Basically, EMDR is good old exposure therapy, which has been proven, with a bunch of eye twitching tossed in for variety. This latter has not been shown to be a useful addition.
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Old 25th March 2019, 06:16 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by thines View Post
I doubt very much that this has been "proven". Scott Lilienfeld has said, to paraphrase that "what's new about EMDR doesn't work" and what works isn't new". Basically, EMDR is good old exposure therapy, which has been proven, with a bunch of eye twitching tossed in for variety. This latter has not been shown to be a useful addition.
Thanks. The whole idea seemed, to me, a bit - woo-ish.
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Old 25th March 2019, 06:57 PM   #4
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I disagree.

It was brought to my attention last year sometime to help with my PTSD and searched out a qualified and trained therapist and have found it to be very scientifically-based and effective in learning to completely eradicate PTSD. Yeah, I was highly skeptical when I had heard such rave reviews, but all that did was prompt me into doing much more through research for myself.

I really recommend it.


ETA: It really shouldn't take more than a dozen or so sessions, either, so it's incredibly short and effective. Gotta make sure the therapist is certified in EMDR though so be careful of that. The tapping and so forth is mainly to break the racing thoughts and negative feedback loop that anxiety can tend to produce. One example: last year, the second-to-last panic attack started and I tried to do deep, slow breathing, yadda yadda... didn't work; half hour later my heart rate was still about the 180 range and so I called the ambulance and didn't start to calm down until I was in the back, on the way to the ED. I learned a few techniques since then but didn't have any panic attacks until like last month. I was going to bed and turned out the lights, my mind went into overdrive, I started to panic, heart rate through the roof, BP skyrocketed... the usual. Got out of bed, went to the sink, got a slightly cool washcloth with water, placed it on my face for about a minute... little less. This triggers a "diving response" in the body which completely reversed the panic attack in less than five minutes. I was back into bed and fell asleep normally. First time ever that's happened to me. The only other time where a panic attack was so short was once when I had a Valium in response. Nothing else was able to literally stop the attack cold like this one little trick did.

That's just one example of when an attack came. The other techniques I would do during the day or throughout the week to help deal with stressors as they arose instead of stuffing them or avoiding them or allowing the stressors to build and overwhelm my natural mental and emotional protections, for lack of a better term.

I am extremely against woo woo stuff especially when it comes to psychology and related issues because I know how easy it can be to fall into the traps. The human brain is ooooonnneee complicated mo-fo as we all know! I would never have done it had the science not been solid enough for me to trust in the process; and I've done a lot of woo crap when it came to therapies in the past.

Anyway, for whatever it's worth...

Last edited by The Norseman; 25th March 2019 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:13 PM   #5
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EMDR

I'm glad it seems to have helped. But anecdotes aren't data and testimonials are just about the worst sort of evidence for any treatment. And then there's the placebo effect, which is huge in these sorts of situations.
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:16 PM   #6
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It is also true that the expose part of EMDR works, so you'd likely have had the same effect with basic exposure treatment and spared your eye muscles the workout. It's just the eye movement part that has not been shown to be effective.
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:19 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by thines View Post
I'm glad it seems to have helped. But anecdotes aren't data and testimonials are just about the worst sort of evidence for any treatment. And then there's the placebo effect, which is huge in these sorts of situations.
My example was simply sharing and not intended to use as evidence as such. I thought I made that clear but hopefully it is now.

Tell me, what research specifically have you read on EMDR?

ETA: Also, EMDR has been studied and developed for over two decades now with many peer-reviewed papers demonstrating efficacy beyond mere placebo, as well as papers approaching this from a neurophysiological direction in attempting to discover an explanation of how these techniques affect the brain and thought processes.

So, that's why I find your vague dismissals somewhat questionable.

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Old 25th March 2019, 07:20 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by thines View Post
It is also true that the expose part of EMDR works, so you'd likely have had the same effect with basic exposure treatment and spared your eye muscles the workout. It's just the eye movement part that has not been shown to be effective.
Yeah, I've never really done that part, even though it is a part of the name. I mentioned tapping because that's what I have used.
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:38 PM   #9
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EMDR

If you google "Scott Lilienfeld" & EMDR you'll find many of Scott's publications on the topic. Also the current (or one past?) edition of the "Guide to Treatments that Work" is not favorable to EMDR. I'm at home and the book is in my university library so it's not at hand. Science Based Medicine and Quackwatch have also covered EMDR.
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:58 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Yeah, I've never really done that part, even though it is a part of the name. I mentioned tapping because that's what I have used.

Norseman, I'm so glad it has helped you, I have heard several other people talk of their benefits. Belonging to a group for suicide loss survivors it is a big topic, and mostly people have commented positively about their treatments and short duration.
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Old 25th March 2019, 08:04 PM   #11
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In the late 90s, due to a random misdirected email, I was suddenly informed that I had been appointed chairman of the EMDR Association's Publicity Committee. I immediately did a Reply All to tell them that even though I had no idea what EMDR stood for, I had gone ahead and printed several hundred stickers reading "Yay, EMDR!" and stuck them all around my neighborhood, and that I was working on exciting new publicity initiatives for them, including: "Blimps, blimps, blimps!"

I was a little annoyed that they never emailed me back with even an "oops, sorry," so having in the meantime looked up what EMDR was, I emailed them again with details of my design for the EMDR Blimp. It was a seventy-meter-long dirigible equipped with loudspeakers and sixty-meter-long 100-kilowatt port and starboard horizontal light bars. It could fly to disaster sites and immediately deliver "mass EMDR therapy" to the traumatized victims, as well as carry in potable water and other supplies. It would be guaranteed to appear on news footage of every major disaster, making it "the greatest publicity masterstroke since Tang went into space."

They never sent back a single word, of course. A couple of years later, after 9/11, I kept thinking, what a shame, we could have used that EMDR Blimp.
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Old 25th March 2019, 08:50 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Is anyone familiar with this therapy? My therapist is encouraging me to use it with his guidance. It requires you to be able to relax to a meditational state, and I am afraid I am too internally anxious.


It has been proven, however, to help people with PTSD, trauma, depression, addiction, and a host of other benefits.

I'm glad this is effective for some people. Not having a clear scientific basis as to why it's effective leaves me a little cold. I would imagine that the treatment works for psychological reasons alone - and is probably comparable to guided meditation and/or breathing exercises. I doubt that anyone has put together any evidence for a neurological explanation, some rewiring of the brain or other nonsense.

Still, if you don't want to take medication, this or another form of meditation might be worth a shot.
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:22 PM   #13
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I have done breathing and stretching exercises in decades passed to control anxiety. I had not seen any therapist nor yoga , just spur of the moment stuff to pass stressful moments.

It works to a certain extent but not as well as just eliminating the source of the stress.

A good beer and a ten minute break work better but I wasn't allowed that at work. I did dream of it....
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Old 25th March 2019, 10:54 PM   #14
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I know nothing about EMDR, but I'm familiar with another relaxation technique, autogenic training (Wikipedia), that seems to be completely woo-free. (See Clinical application and evidence)
There are several Youtube introductions, but I don't know if they are any good.
I found out about the technique from watching German public service TV and never went beyond what they showed in the first 20 min. show. It worked for me, and over the years I've used the exercise now and then when I felt stressed.
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Old 26th March 2019, 03:40 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
I hope this works because my cut/paste thing isn't working.

www.emdr-therapy.com/emdr.html

Is anyone familiar with this therapy? My therapist is encouraging me to use it with his guidance. It requires you to be able to relax to a meditational state, and I am afraid I am too internally anxious.


It has been proven, however, to help people with PTSD, trauma, depression, addiction, and a host of other benefits.
Although the way EMDR was developed sounds woo-ish, there is evidence that it is just as effective for PTSD symptoms as trauma-focused CBT and similar therapies that involve distraction with a dual task such as tapping. In the UK EMDR is recommended by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence for treating PTSD.

What is not clear is whether the eye movements actually play any role in reducing symptoms, whether they simply work as a form of distraction, or whether it is purely the talking component that is responsible for any effect. There are theories about the effects of eye movements on brain and memory processes and ongoing research using brain imaging but this is still a matter of debate.


I don't know of any established reason why it would require you to be in a more relaxed state to work compared to any other form of psychotherapy. There may be a particular theory that proposes this, but it is unlikely to have a well-established basis.
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Old 26th March 2019, 08:57 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
I hope this works because my cut/paste thing isn't working.

www.emdr-therapy.com/emdr.html

Is anyone familiar with this therapy? My therapist is encouraging me to use it with his guidance. It requires you to be able to relax to a meditational state, and I am afraid I am too internally anxious.


It has been proven, however, to help people with PTSD, trauma, depression, addiction, and a host of other benefits.
This was a big deal back in the mid 1990s, I knew all these clinicians I respected, some even atheist sceptics, who swore by.

But Mercutio pointed out some flaws back on the JREF, he called it 'finger wagging'.

I know people who swore by it
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Old 26th March 2019, 12:12 PM   #17
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I'm a Social Security Disability attorney and, although anecdotal, I can tell you that a few of my clients that suffered from PTSD (all veterans) that used EMDR along with regular therapy saw very substantial reductions in symptoms. Not everything works for everyone, so I think that to use conventional therapy and EMDR at the same time may help some. However, what the actual difference was in the treatments may very well boil down to the EMDR therapist being a better therapist overall, as far as I could tell.
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Old 27th March 2019, 11:17 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by thines View Post
If you google "Scott Lilienfeld" & EMDR you'll find many of Scott's publications on the topic. Also the current (or one past?) edition of the "Guide to Treatments that Work" is not favorable to EMDR. I'm at home and the book is in my university library so it's not at hand. Science Based Medicine and Quackwatch have also covered EMDR.
Thanks for the information, I'll do my best to research Lilienfeld's findings. I'm always keen to learn more.



Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I'm glad this is effective for some people. Not having a clear scientific basis as to why it's effective leaves me a little cold. I would imagine that the treatment works for psychological reasons alone - and is probably comparable to guided meditation and/or breathing exercises. I doubt that anyone has put together any evidence for a neurological explanation, some rewiring of the brain or other nonsense..
Well, you'd be very wrong about that as I have available several studies which have demonstrated actual neurological changes.



Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Norseman, I'm so glad it has helped you, I have heard several other people talk of their benefits. Belonging to a group for suicide loss survivors it is a big topic, and mostly people have commented positively about their treatments and short duration.
Thanks! I'll PM you if you'd like with a few pdf's of studies I have for you to read if interested.

The main successes, so far as I understand, are centered around PTSD specifically, though of course depression and related issues are still being explored.
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Old 28th March 2019, 12:03 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Well, you'd be very wrong about that as I have available several studies which have demonstrated actual neurological changes.

References and/or links, please.
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Old 28th March 2019, 11:13 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
I disagree.

It was brought to my attention last year sometime to help with my PTSD and searched out a qualified and trained therapist and have found it to be very scientifically-based and effective in learning to completely eradicate PTSD. Yeah, I was highly skeptical when I had heard such rave reviews, but all that did was prompt me into doing much more through research for myself.

I really recommend it.


ETA: It really shouldn't take more than a dozen or so sessions, either, so it's incredibly short and effective. Gotta make sure the therapist is certified in EMDR though so be careful of that. The tapping and so forth is mainly to break the racing thoughts and negative feedback loop that anxiety can tend to produce. One example: last year, the second-to-last panic attack started and I tried to do deep, slow breathing, yadda yadda... didn't work; half hour later my heart rate was still about the 180 range and so I called the ambulance and didn't start to calm down until I was in the back, on the way to the ED. I learned a few techniques since then but didn't have any panic attacks until like last month. I was going to bed and turned out the lights, my mind went into overdrive, I started to panic, heart rate through the roof, BP skyrocketed... the usual. Got out of bed, went to the sink, got a slightly cool washcloth with water, placed it on my face for about a minute... little less. This triggers a "diving response" in the body which completely reversed the panic attack in less than five minutes. I was back into bed and fell asleep normally. First time ever that's happened to me. The only other time where a panic attack was so short was once when I had a Valium in response. Nothing else was able to literally stop the attack cold like this one little trick did.

That's just one example of when an attack came. The other techniques I would do during the day or throughout the week to help deal with stressors as they arose instead of stuffing them or avoiding them or allowing the stressors to build and overwhelm my natural mental and emotional protections, for lack of a better term.

I am extremely against woo woo stuff especially when it comes to psychology and related issues because I know how easy it can be to fall into the traps. The human brain is ooooonnneee complicated mo-fo as we all know! I would never have done it had the science not been solid enough for me to trust in the process; and I've done a lot of woo crap when it came to therapies in the past.

Anyway, for whatever it's worth...


Cooling your face with a washcloth isn't EMDR.

Glad it helped your panic attack though.
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Old 28th March 2019, 11:17 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by thines View Post
I doubt very much that this has been "proven". Scott Lilienfeld has said, to paraphrase that "what's new about EMDR doesn't work" and what works isn't new". Basically, EMDR is good old exposure therapy, which has been proven, with a bunch of eye twitching tossed in for variety. This latter has not been shown to be a useful addition.


This. I have a friend who's researched it extensively, and has found that "evidence" for EMDR is very weak, and its use is often associated with psychological therapies that are actually harmful.
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Old 28th March 2019, 08:17 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Cooling your face with a washcloth isn't EMDR.

Glad it helped your panic attack though.
Yes. My story conflated the two and I should have written more clearly. The point was simply sharing a story with wasapi with whom I've had contact outside of the ISF. I see now I should have kept it to a PM.
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Old 29th March 2019, 11:05 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Well, you'd be very wrong about that as I have available several studies which have demonstrated actual neurological changes.

Any chance of getting the references for these?
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Old 12th August 2019, 04:00 PM   #24
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I'm a the end of my rope with IBS. Now that I'm on the proper antibiotics, the major physical effects of my type of IBS are nearly gone, but the scars from years of it are making my life far more difficult than ever and I am losing out on career opportunities, nevermind never getting to do anything in personal life, and its actually worse than it has ever been even though most of my IBS pain is gone since the antibiotics.

It was mentioned above that EMDR may be an alternative to medication. Honestly, I'd rather have the medication, but as a male it is much, much much harder to get what the litterature calls for.

As hard as I have worked to get my weight down to sensible levels and ride my bike every day (than you JREF!!!) and though i may look like the absolute picture of health now, that is certainly not how it feels inside. I obviously have the willpower to do whatever it takes, but I just cannot lick this.

People around me keep pushing EMDR on me, but I don't think I have anything that would fit the clinical definition of PTSD.

Would EMDR be of any use to me?
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:59 PM   #25
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I'm sorry, I'm not answering the question that you've asked, but, as I may have mentioned before...

I have beaten back IBS to a mild inconvenience with dietary changes.

Happy to talk you through the process if you think it could help.
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Old 16th August 2019, 08:20 PM   #26
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After a fair amount of time, I decided it was not for me. By then, I had adapted by finding the things that help me find a calmness, a meditation, that won't block a full on panic attack. But daily, exercising, meditation, aquatic therapy helps me stay calm more consistently, as well as a change in medication that has helped.

What was interesting, yesterday I saw my doctor. She advised me to smoke or consume a lot of pot. She felt it dealt with two issues I am having. chronic pain and low appetite. I asked her, smiling, if she was suggesting I stay stoned all day, she said, "Yeah. Pretty much." California.
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Old 17th August 2019, 05:46 AM   #27
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"As your physician, I advise you to remain stoned at all times."

Why does that sound vaguely familiar? Ah, yes:

"As your attorney, I advise you to take a hit out of the little brown bottle in my shaving kit."
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Old 17th August 2019, 03:00 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
References and/or links, please.

Nothing says woo more than "demonstrated actual neurological changes".
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Old 18th August 2019, 11:05 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
I'm a the end of my rope with IBS. Now that I'm on the proper antibiotics, the major physical effects of my type of IBS are nearly gone, but the scars from years of it are making my life far more difficult than ever and I am losing out on career opportunities, nevermind never getting to do anything in personal life, and its actually worse than it has ever been even though most of my IBS pain is gone since the antibiotics.

It was mentioned above that EMDR may be an alternative to medication. Honestly, I'd rather have the medication, but as a male it is much, much much harder to get what the litterature calls for.

As hard as I have worked to get my weight down to sensible levels and ride my bike every day (than you JREF!!!) and though i may look like the absolute picture of health now, that is certainly not how it feels inside. I obviously have the willpower to do whatever it takes, but I just cannot lick this.

People around me keep pushing EMDR on me, but I don't think I have anything that would fit the clinical definition of PTSD.

Would EMDR be of any use to me?
"Helping cure people from IBS for over 100 years", Mutaflor. It's a pro-biotic strain separated from the feces of a German soldier in 1917. "E-coli Nissle 1917". $90 bottle on Amazon. Or if that is too scarey, Vitafusion Probiotic, has Bacillus Stabilis, (from the stable?) m and Bacillus Coagulans. The cultures eat the rough "insoluble fiber" that seemed to give me intermittent problems.
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Old 20th August 2019, 12:05 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
I'm sorry, I'm not answering the question that you've asked, but, as I may have mentioned before...

I have beaten back IBS to a mild inconvenience with dietary changes.

Happy to talk you through the process if you think it could help.
Mine was the type caused by bacteria so 47 years of specific diet attempts had no effect (except for absolute trigger foods, which for me turned out to be anything really fatty or peanut butter)
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Old 20th August 2019, 12:06 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
After a fair amount of time, I decided it was not for me. By then, I had adapted by finding the things that help me find a calmness, a meditation, that won't block a full on panic attack. But daily, exercising, meditation, aquatic therapy helps me stay calm more consistently, as well as a change in medication that has helped.

What was interesting, yesterday I saw my doctor. She advised me to smoke or consume a lot of pot. She felt it dealt with two issues I am having. chronic pain and low appetite. I asked her, smiling, if she was suggesting I stay stoned all day, she said, "Yeah. Pretty much." California.
Hehe! here in Hawaii is much the same....Theyll give you a weed card with no argument, but the drugs that are actually shown to help? hell no

I gave the pot a try, makes it far, far worse for me.
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