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Old 6th June 2016, 06:59 AM   #161
wareyin
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Originally Posted by esspee View Post
You are good <bows>

Very compelling evidence, I have to admit.

You are shaking the sand beneath my castle here. You do realise that!


"What more could you want"

Non-video evidence of the event occurring.

You are at the castle gates now.
Find me non-video evidence of this event and it could be the battering ram that smashes them open.

<hold the door, hold the door, holdor>

The inventor of the flyboard stated that his original exposure of the thing was intended to make people think it was a hoax (paraphrased from memory), so it's understandable that a lot of people thought it was fake. I did. But we have independent evidence from credible organizations that the flyboard exists, and works. There is no shame in being wrong, only in refusing to admit one was wrong when there is no longer doubt.
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Old 6th June 2016, 07:06 AM   #162
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I'm having a hard time believing the Flyboard Air could operate using four rc jet engines and two Electric Ducted Fans as propulsion/stabilization.

Those red-colored Electric Ducted Fans (EDF):
Supposed to control stability (yaw?) and perhaps provide forward speed, in addition to body position/leaning?

They look like they are JP Hobby 70mm 2250kv 4-6S 12 Blade Metal EDF and produce (only) 5.19 lb. static thrust, each? I don't see how that's enough thrust to propel the Flyboard Air with a person on it the way it is shown in the videos. Simply not enough thrust, and, likely those EDFs wouldn't be able to adjust quickly enough for changes in wind speed?

I say hoax.
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Last edited by Ernie M; 6th June 2016 at 07:09 AM. Reason: Added lb for thrust rating.
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Old 6th June 2016, 07:13 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
The inventor of the flyboard stated that his original exposure of the thing was intended to make people think it was a hoax (paraphrased from memory), so it's understandable that a lot of people thought it was fake. I did. But we have independent evidence from credible organizations that the flyboard exists, and works. There is no shame in being wrong, only in refusing to admit one was wrong when there is no longer doubt.

I agree.

And when i no longer have doubt i will admit defeat.

I am still looking for non-video evidence of the recent Monaco event.

And i still have yet to see independent evidence from organizations or individuals. Press releases do not cut it.
If it is real, Guinness is involved - so they do not count as independent source for confirming it exists - or rather - exists in the form in which it is portrayed to.



Believe me, I am trying to debunk myself harder than anyone else here.

Help me out - find some non-video mention or source online confirming the recent Monaco demonstration.
I keep coming up empty- but as has been shown in this thread- my google skills are not as good as some of you lot here.
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Old 6th June 2016, 07:13 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
I'm having a hard time believing the Flyboard Air could operate using four rc jet engines and two Electric Ducted Fans as propulsion/stabilization.

Those red-colored Electric Ducted Fans (EDF):
Supposed to control stability (yaw?) and perhaps provide forward speed, in addition to body position/leaning?

They look like they are JP Hobby 70mm 2250kv 4-6S 12 Blade Metal EDF and produce (only) 5.19 lb. static thrust, each? I don't see how that's enough thrust to propel the Flyboard Air with a person on it the way it is shown in the videos. Simply not enough thrust, and, likely those EDFs wouldn't be able to adjust quickly enough for changes in wind speed?

I say hoax.
Why would you need assist to forward speed ? Leaning alone is perfect for that, helicopters have been using that for some time.
I guess they are for yaw control only, and 6 pounds sounds like just enough.

Last edited by Dr.Sid; 6th June 2016 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 6th June 2016, 07:21 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
I'm having a hard time believing the Flyboard Air could operate using four rc jet engines and two Electric Ducted Fans as propulsion/stabilization.

Those red-colored Electric Ducted Fans (EDF):
Supposed to control stability (yaw?) and perhaps provide forward speed, in addition to body position/leaning?

They look like they are JP Hobby 70mm 2250kv 4-6S 12 Blade Metal EDF and produce (only) 5.19 lb. static thrust, each? I don't see how that's enough thrust to propel the Flyboard Air with a person on it the way it is shown in the videos. Simply not enough thrust, and, likely those EDFs wouldn't be able to adjust quickly enough for changes in wind speed?

I say hoax.
Are you a helicopter pilot?

Its interesting that it often people who work in aviation or closely tied to it ( like myself) that have the greatest doubts about this machine
We spend time in the air, so it makes sense that our opinions and instincts could be better regarding this than ground-huggers.



As for the electric fans on the side - i agree - what possible use could they have for a aircraft with such a high Cof G?
And also - being so close to the centre of rotation of the device i doubt they would have any use in turning the weight of the machine and man.

if they were out on longer poles, using leverage, i might be more inclined to believe they are for anything other than decoration.

p.s. have you noticed how his flight path seems similar to someone dangling from a fixed but moving point? Is it possible he is dangling from a large drone (edited out of the footage) and that the jets under his feet are real, but mostly for streering a little under it or relieving the load a little? Or maybe just for show and to make the water spry beneath him.
Originally i thought he may be dangling from a crane or a helicopter. Helicopter would cut it. I've seen a bit of timber lifting via helicopter in the mountains. Looks a bit like this

I would like to hear more of your thoughts on this
Just clutching at straws here.

Last edited by esspee; 6th June 2016 at 07:29 AM.
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Old 6th June 2016, 07:22 AM   #166
wareyin
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Originally Posted by esspee View Post
I agree.

And when i no longer have doubt i will admit defeat.

I am still looking for non-video evidence of the recent Monaco event.

And i still have yet to see independent evidence from organizations or individuals. Press releases do not cut it.
If it is real, Guinness is involved - so they do not count as independent source for confirming it exists - or rather - exists in the form in which it is portrayed to.



Believe me, I am trying to debunk myself harder than anyone else here.

Help me out - find some non-video mention or source online confirming the recent Monaco demonstration.
I keep coming up empty- but as has been shown in this thread- my google skills are not as good as some of you lot here.
Why would Guinness be in on it?
Also, you claimed that cell phone footage would be evidence, yet when you got that, you've moved the goalposts to non-video sources. Why would a mention convince you when Guinness and the BBC didn't?
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Old 6th June 2016, 07:41 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by esspee View Post
Are you a helicopter pilot?

Its interesting that it often people who work in aviation or closely tied to it ( like myself) that have the greatest doubts about this machine
We spend time in the air, so it makes sense that our opinions and instincts could be better regarding this than ground-huggers.



As for the electric fans on the side - i agree - what possible use could they have for a aircraft with such a high Cof G?
And also - being so close to the centre of rotation of the device i doubt they would have any use in turning the weight of the machine and man.

if they were out on longer poles, using leverage, i might be more inclined to believe they are for anything other than decoration.

p.s. have you noticed how his flight path seems similar to someone dangling from a fixed but moving point? Is it possible he is dangling from a large drone (edited out of the footage) and that the jets under his feet are real, but mostly for streering a little under it or relieving the load a little? Or maybe just for show and to make the water spry beneath him.
Originally i thought he may be dangling from a crane or a helicopter. Helicopter would cut it. I've seen a bit of timber lifting via helicopter in the mountains. Looks a bit like this

I would like to hear more of your thoughts on this
Just clutching at straws here.
If the engines always worked in opposite direction, it would have no effect other than yaw rotation, even if they are far from CoG in vertical direction. Also it would increase the yaw rotational moment.
2 times 6 pounds is imho perfectly enough to stabilize standing person (plus apparatus). It's also clear that the device needs some form of yaw stabilization, and that flying standing person has very poor yaw stability or control independent of how fast he's moving.
Yes, it would be more effective, if the yaw engines were on long poles. But main design goal of this device is compactness. So there is good reason to have them as close to the axis as practical.
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Old 6th June 2016, 07:45 AM   #168
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in reply to wareyin

"Why would Guinness be in on it?
Also, you claimed that cell phone footage would be evidence, yet when you got that, you've moved the goalposts to non-video sources. Why would a mention convince you when Guinness and the BBC didn't?"


Guinness? i don't know - it seems stupid of them to put their rep on the line.
But as i said in my OP - i am focusing on inconsistencies with the story. This is not one of them.


I am not moving the goalposts here.
I am simply hanging out in battle until my last man is down.

My third party footage argument is severely wounded (but not dead )due to these latest videos (they are very convincing i agree, but it is only two, and only one of them of them is from the public area of the event)
Further discrediting this argument is the speculation that people do not always upload videos and photos they take to the public. I have to admit that is true.

One of my last decent men fighting is the lack of non-video evidence for the latest demonstration event.

By all means slay this argument if you can.

Last edited by esspee; 6th June 2016 at 07:47 AM.
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Old 6th June 2016, 07:54 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
If the engines always worked in opposite direction, it would have no effect other than yaw rotation, even if they are far from CoG in vertical direction. Also it would increase the yaw rotational moment.
2 times 6 pounds is imho perfectly enough to stabilize standing person (plus apparatus). It's also clear that the device needs some form of yaw stabilization, and that flying standing person has very poor yaw stability or control independent of how fast he's moving.
Yes, it would be more effective, if the yaw engines were on long poles. But main design goal of this device is compactness. So there is good reason to have them as close to the axis as practical.
I think i see what you mean - as they are pushing backwards at equal constant unchanging pressure, it allows him to be able initiate rotation by tilting the unit - am i understanding you correctly.

If so - that does makes a little sense for sure.
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Old 6th June 2016, 08:06 AM   #170
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I already hinted to you that the evidence you seek may not be presented in a technical or formal way. Spectators may have posted videos with titles like "Wow dude!" They may not include the name Flyboard Air because the spectator doesn't know the actual name of the device.

Non-video evidence from the Monaco F1 event from spectators may be the same thing. You could have French people writing in French saying that they saw a guy flying on a "thing" but never use the name Flyboard Air because they have never heard that name before. They came to watch racing and all of a sudden they see a guy flying over the water. Go visit hundreds of French forums and French Facebook to start looking for what you seek. Don't ask anyone to do it for you.
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Old 6th June 2016, 08:27 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I already hinted to you that the evidence you seek may not be presented in a technical or formal way. Spectators may have posted videos with titles like "Wow dude!" They may not include the name Flyboard Air because the spectator doesn't know the actual name of the device.

Non-video evidence from the Monaco F1 event from spectators may be the same thing. You could have French people writing in French saying that they saw a guy flying on a "thing" but never use the name Flyboard Air because they have never heard that name before. They came to watch racing and all of a sudden they see a guy flying over the water. Go visit hundreds of French forums and French Facebook to start looking for what you seek. Don't ask anyone to do it for you.
These are good points.

What I was really looking for was not so much personal public statements on FB or whatever, but something like a write up about it, or promotion for it.
I found it strange it did not receive a mention on the party organisers corporate FB page.
Or on Zapata-racing website even ( although it was posted but quickly removed, only mention of it was on one jetski website)

But i do agree with your points.
My arguments are getting weaker by the post.

I underestimated this forum - which i am glad of - because it is about time i found a forum with some people who are good to discuss things with and where you don't get banned for being a thorn in peoples feet or debating them.

If i find evidence of a few non-video sources corroborating this Monaco event, I will change my position on his thread from

- I claim this is a hoax - prove me wrong!


to a position of

- I am here to discuss and speculate about the device, arguments about if it is real or not, and how it works.


( p.s yes - i should find this info myself, but i am not having much luck. I even asked a friend who does a fair bit of research for their job to look into it, and they could not find any sources either, I guess i am just hoping someone here can)
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Old 6th June 2016, 08:35 AM   #172
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With a little practice, I wouldn't be surprised if (magician and illusionist) Criss Angel could fly around like Franky Zapata- and not even need a Flyboard® Air.

And while 'Flyboarding' without a board, maybe Criss could do some somersaults-- while peeling a potato. That would be real!!!
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Old 6th June 2016, 08:42 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by esspee View Post
These are good points.

What I was really looking for was not so much personal public statements on FB or whatever, but something like a write up about it, or promotion for it.
I found it strange it did not receive a mention on the party organisers corporate FB page.
Or on Zapata-racing website even ( although it was posted but quickly removed, only mention of it was on one jetski website)

But i do agree with your points.
My arguments are getting weaker by the post.

I underestimated this forum - which i am glad of - because it is about time i found a forum with some people who are good to discuss things with and where you don't get banned for being a thorn in peoples feet or debating them.

If i find evidence of a few non-video sources corroborating this Monaco event, I will change my position on his thread from

- I claim this is a hoax - prove me wrong!


to a position of

- I am here to discuss and speculate about the device, arguments about if it is real or not, and how it works.


( p.s yes - i should find this info myself, but i am not having much luck. I even asked a friend who does a fair bit of research for their job to look into it, and they could not find any sources either, I guess i am just hoping someone here can)
I don't know what your expectations are, but this is a new device, hand built, one off, unlicensed prototype. The inventors are professional jet ski racers, not professional scientists or engineers. What they've built could be reinvented from first principles by anyone and Zapata may or may not have a patent protecting their investments of time and labor. So revealing huge amounts of information to the public benefits them not a jot.
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Old 6th June 2016, 09:14 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by esspee View Post
These are good points.

What I was really looking for was not so much personal public statements on FB or whatever, but something like a write up about it, or promotion for it.
I found it strange it did not receive a mention on the party organisers corporate FB page.
Or on Zapata-racing website even ( although it was posted but quickly removed, only mention of it was on one jetski website)
You are looking for spectators who confirm the presence of a flying guy because your theory is that there was no flying guy at Monaco. These auto racing spectators are not likely to write a report or promotion. Your theory is destroyed if only one member of the audience says to a friend or relative that they saw a flying guy at the race. Your problem, so to speak, is that this comment will be in French and it won't be a formal write-up or promotion. It will be found in casual social media, blogs, forums, etc. It will be written in French language and will not include the name Flyboard Air.

Quote:
If i find evidence of a few non-video sources corroborating this Monaco event, I will change my position...
You don't need a few, you only need one. But if you are claiming a conspiracy (which you are) then you are likely to reject eyewitness accounts as being just more conspirators seeding the pot.

Quote:
( p.s yes - i should find this info myself, but i am not having much luck. I even asked a friend who does a fair bit of research for their job to look into it, and they could not find any sources either, I guess i am just hoping someone here can)
You need to look at French social media to find what you seek. Others in this thread do not share that same need for confirmation of authenticity.
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Old 6th June 2016, 10:20 AM   #175
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I'm seeking confirmation of fraud or authenticity,

Either will do for me.

(But I am still on the hoax side of the fence, if i had to choose a team.)
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Old 6th June 2016, 10:40 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by esspee View Post
I'm seeking confirmation of fraud or authenticity,

Either will do for me.

(But I am still on the hoax side of the fence, if i had to choose a team.)
Why? Is there some actual part of the device that you consider impossible, or are just at the Incredulity stage?
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Old 6th June 2016, 11:35 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by esspee View Post
Are you a helicopter pilot?

[...]

Sadly no. I like helicopters, but all I got to do was play with a Mattel, VertiBird (toy) back in the 1970's.

My avatar? It's a picture of me sitting in a Bell Kiowa OH-58A, the model before Bell went to a wrap-around wind screen. An Army Warrant Officer flew it in and landed it in a field during some summer camp training I had a long time ago at Fort Knox, Kentucky. I asked to try on the helmet.

Being a military pilot wasn't an option because I wear glasses.

But with the helmet on, I sat in the helicopter, held the collective and cyclic pitch controls, placed my feet on the anti-torque pedals, and, for a short time, fantasized I was flying.
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Old 6th June 2016, 11:52 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Why? Is there some actual part of the device that you consider impossible, or are just at the Incredulity stage?
Parts of the system as advertised Impossible?
Nothing is impossible. ( their is no real in-depth details of the construction so what do I know?)

Unlikley and improbable?
yes

I only became aware of the device after the World Record.

Someone linked it.
I thought it was great watching the build up. i had the same excitement a I did for Yves Rossy when his stuff first came out.

Then I saw the footage. And it looked very suspect, right off the bat. Which made no sense as Guinness were involved. But i chose to explore my initial instinct, because it is good to follow your instincts.

Been looking into it ever since to try to make sense of it. But the more I have found out the more i doubt.

Thats the story basically.
Nothing has convinced me it is real yet. There is supporting evidence, but nothing solid has emerged yet.


I think it is a hoax or a deception of some kind as you can tell.


Incredulity?
No I don't think so - I've just not seen anything concrete yet in terms of evidence to prove it exists as advertised.
( limited video footage is no longer solid evidence in this day of advanced video manipulation, lazy articles made up almost entirely of press releases are no longer solid evidence, the endorsement of Guinness is very compelling i will admit - but still not concrete evidence. At one time it was - but no more, it has become a brand marketing company)
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Old 6th June 2016, 11:57 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
Sadly no. I like helicopters, but all I got to do was play with a Mattel, VertiBird (toy) back in the 1970's.

My avatar? It's a picture of me sitting in a Bell Kiowa OH-58A, the model before Bell went to a wrap-around wind screen. An Army Warrant Officer flew it in and landed it in a field during some summer camp training I had a long time ago at Fort Knox, Kentucky. I asked to try on the helmet.

Being a military pilot wasn't an option because I wear glasses.

But with the helmet on, I sat in the helicopter, held the collective and cyclic pitch controls, placed my feet on the anti-torque pedals, and, for a short time, fantasized I was flying.
Don't fret - you won't need 20/20 vision to fly Frankies Magic Carpet.

Just 100 hours or so of training on his famous patented water based Flyboard®

(which BTW is a stunningly cool invention, and I take my hat off to him for coming up with it)
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Old 6th June 2016, 12:20 PM   #180
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UPDATE

On twitter "BREAKING NEWS! WORLD PREMIERE of #Flyboard live flight & race on June 9 in #Barcelona at #Challengers16 -tickets"

Franky is doing a Flyboard Live show at this event at 18:00. JUNE 9th
Check the itinerary. He is also speaking during the day to the conference.

he has been doing these Flyboard Live shows for a while ( using the water flyboards, and a team of top level riders and pyrotechnics)

i wonder if now that he has the flyboard Air operational , if he will be demoing that at this event?
It does not say either way if he will or not at the website. ( but the link leads to the original flyboard Air test 1 vid)

Place your bets.

http://www.challenge.rs/index.php#agenda

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Old 6th June 2016, 12:23 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
Sadly no. I like helicopters, but all I got to do was play with a Mattel, VertiBird (toy) back in the 1970's.

My avatar? It's a picture of me sitting in a Bell Kiowa OH-58A, the model before Bell went to a wrap-around wind screen. An Army Warrant Officer flew it in and landed it in a field during some summer camp training I had a long time ago at Fort Knox, Kentucky. I asked to try on the helmet.

Being a military pilot wasn't an option because I wear glasses.

But with the helmet on, I sat in the helicopter, held the collective and cyclic pitch controls, placed my feet on the anti-torque pedals, and, for a short time, fantasized I was flying.
I guess you drew the line at making "put-putt" sounds.
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Old 6th June 2016, 01:07 PM   #182
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Has it occurred to anybody else the Esspee might be the actual Viral Advertiser?

Isn't callin itself a hoax SOP for Airboard?
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Old 6th June 2016, 01:12 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Has it occurred to anybody else the Esspee might be the actual Viral Advertiser?

Isn't callin itself a hoax SOP for Airboard?
Well this thread is hardly good place for spreading the word ..
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Old 6th June 2016, 01:18 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
I'm having a hard time believing the Flyboard Air could operate using four rc jet engines and two Electric Ducted Fans as propulsion/stabilization.

Those red-colored Electric Ducted Fans (EDF):
Supposed to control stability (yaw?) and perhaps provide forward speed, in addition to body position/leaning?

They look like they are JP Hobby 70mm 2250kv 4-6S 12 Blade Metal EDF and produce (only) 5.19 lb. static thrust, each? I don't see how that's enough thrust to propel the Flyboard Air with a person on it the way it is shown in the videos. Simply not enough thrust, and, likely those EDFs wouldn't be able to adjust quickly enough for changes in wind speed?

I say hoax.
Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Why would you need assist to forward speed ? Leaning alone is perfect for that, helicopters have been using that for some time.
I guess they are for yaw control only, and 6 pounds sounds like just enough.
Yep 100% Dr. Sid.

The platform is said to use four vertically mounted turbine jets. If that is the case, then (unless he has had two of them specially made to have the turbines rotate in the opposite direction to the other two) there will be a torque applied that will cause the platform to spin. Those ducted fans will be thrusting against the spin to help keep the platform (and therefore the pilot) pointing in the same direction, performing the same task as the tail rotor on the helicopter

Ernie M

Note that the tail rotor on a helicopter is much smaller than the main rotor (just like the ducted fans), delivers much less thrust (just like the ducted fans) and is mounted at 90° to the direction of the main rotor thrust (just like the ducted fans)


NOTE: I'm not a helicopter pilot either, but I did spend 18 months of my 20 years in the RNZAF at Hobsonville on No. 3 Squadron servicing Bell UH1H Iroquois (better known as "Hueys") and OH-47 Sioux helicopters, so I know my way around their control systems well.
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Old 6th June 2016, 01:25 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Has it occurred to anybody else the Esspee might be the actual Viral Advertiser?

Isn't callin itself a hoax SOP for Airboard?
No. I just have OCD or something

But i REALLY like your thinking.
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Old 6th June 2016, 02:48 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by esspee View Post
No. I just have OCD or something

But i REALLY like your thinking.
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove breach of rule 12
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Old 6th June 2016, 03:49 PM   #187
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If I were betting man, I would wager that the four engines are not actually vertically mounted, but are mounted slightly off vertical, with the exhaust cones angled outwards towards the four corners. At least, that is what I would do.

The disadvantage of such an arrangement is that it sacrifices a small amount of the vertical thrust component but IMO, the benefit of the stability gained by operating on top of a wider ""cone of thrust" rather than a "column of thrust" would be worth it
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Old 6th June 2016, 04:04 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
If I were betting man, I would wager that the four engines are not actually vertically mounted, but are mounted slightly off vertical, with the exhaust cones angled outwards towards the four corners. At least, that is what I would do.

The disadvantage of such an arrangement is that it sacrifices a small amount of the vertical thrust component but IMO, the benefit of the stability gained by operating on top of a wider ""cone of thrust" rather than a "column of thrust" would be worth it
I don't see how that could be relevant. All those thrust vectors just combine into one.
Now turning them all a bit clockwise or counterclockwise around the device vertical axis (like engines on left a bit forward and engines on right a bit backward) could produce angular momentum which could cancel the possible angular momentum from turbines.
But wait, that could be even used to control yaw. Guess making the turbines pivot would be needlessly complex.
Anyway .. interesting question .. does turbine jet engine produce strong angular momentum ?
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Old 6th June 2016, 04:07 PM   #189
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The Guinness link shows a hi-def picture of the unit from above. What are those little red things on the sides that look like turn signals?


http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/...-france-427011
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Old 6th June 2016, 04:11 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The Guinness link shows a hi-def picture of the unit from above. What are those little red things on the sides that look like turn signals?


http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/...-france-427011
electric ducted fans

Said to run of a Lithium Polymer battery somewhere in the unit.

WHat they are actually for is another question
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Old 6th June 2016, 04:58 PM   #191
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There is no significant torque from a jet turbine running at roughly constant speed: there is a small torque reaction when the compressor/turbine changes speed but this is much less than the torque reaction from the motor driving a rotor or propeller on a helicopter or plane.
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Old 6th June 2016, 05:15 PM   #192
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Quote:
I don't see how that could be relevant. All those thrust vectors just combine into one.
they only combine into one at the board....I would bet the jets are angled as well as that provides the stability....the higher he goes the more stable he is....

that's why he needs help right at the take off and landing as the "thrust" footprint is small and unstable.

Once the thrust legs get longer they are more stable.

I would guess the ducted fans are for rotation in flight ...I think he has a joy stick so this is mostly computer controlled and he tllts to go forward ala a Segway while the fans keep him directionally oriented....there would be zilch friction so does not need much power in them.

Quote:
They look like they are JP Hobby 70mm 2250kv 4-6S 12 Blade Metal EDF and produce (only) 5.19 lb. static thrust, each? I don't see how that's enough thrust to propel the Flyboard Air with a person on it the way it is shown in the videos. Simply not enough thrust, and, likely those EDFs wouldn't be able to adjust quickly enough for changes in wind speed?
The don't provide vertical thrust ...they are not even pointed in the correct direction...they are for rotation.

Propulsion systems are moving forward at an incredible speed....there is a light aircraft engine producing 345 HP out of a 145 lb engine.

Ths car engine weighs 88 lb and puts out 400 HP



Jet turbines are phenomenally efficient..any smart phone can control his flight stability......connect the dots.

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Old 6th June 2016, 05:40 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
There is no significant torque from a jet turbine running at roughly constant speed: there is a small torque reaction when the compressor/turbine changes speed but this is much less than the torque reaction from the motor driving a rotor or propeller on a helicopter or plane.
Well I agree to a point. The rotating inertias are smaller primarily because the turbine diameters are smaller. While they are not always significant, they are also not non-existent either.

In this case, the flyer will have to increase and decrease thrust to increase and decrease altitude, and this will result in a turning moment even if the turbine rotating inertias are very small because there would be nothing to resist the turning moment. Those ducted fans would be sifficient to overcome this small turning moment
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Old 6th June 2016, 06:21 PM   #194
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Hm ! After inspecting those Guiness images in detail, I realized another important thing. That's one cute adjudicator.
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Old 7th June 2016, 12:46 AM   #195
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An interesting exercise for engineer types would be to calculate the thrust needed to lift him and match it up with known minature jet engines.
Then calculate fuel consumption to get range.

Of course the biggest issue is noise as a barrier to any commercial application. There is simply no quiet way of hover boarding...fan ( battery powered ) or hydro-carbon fueled.
It's gonna be unacceptably noisy.
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Old 7th June 2016, 02:00 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
An interesting exercise for engineer types would be to calculate the thrust needed to lift him and match it up with known minature jet engines.
Then calculate fuel consumption to get range.

Of course the biggest issue is noise as a barrier to any commercial application. There is simply no quiet way of hover boarding...fan ( battery powered ) or hydro-carbon fueled.
It's gonna be unacceptably noisy.
Well a lot of it is going to be down to how much he weighs and a significant part of the equation will be the "dead weight". i.e. the construction of the platform and other attachments that use up available thrust.

If, as I suggested earlier, he is using four JetCat 200P turbine jet engines, then that is a good starting point. The specs for that engine are

Max Thrust: 52 lbs
Engine Weight: 5.53 lbs
Fuel flow at Full Power: 24.7 fl oz per minute

So multiply that by four (for four engines)

Max Thrust: 208 lbs
Engine Weight: 22.12 lbs
Fuel flow at Full Power: 98.8 fl oz per minute

He carries the fuel load on his person so he is going to reach a point where his body + fuel combined weight is going to be too great for the thrust. I note that he limits his flight times to around 1 to 2 minutes and this is probably why.

Thrust ........................208 lb
less Engine weight.........22 lb
less platform weight......20 lb (guess)
less fuel........................13 lb (98.8 fl oz x 2 for 1½ min flight w/30s reserve)*
----------------------------------
Thrust for lift...............153 lb

So if he weighs less than about 11 stone fully clothed, its doable.


* Jet fuel has a lower specific gravity than water and I assume their fuel flow figures account for that.
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Old 7th June 2016, 03:10 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well a lot of it is going to be down to how much he weighs and a significant part of the equation will be the "dead weight". i.e. the construction of the platform and other attachments that use up available thrust.

If, as I suggested earlier, he is using four JetCat 200P turbine jet engines, then that is a good starting point. The specs for that engine are

Max Thrust: 52 lbs
Engine Weight: 5.53 lbs
Fuel flow at Full Power: 24.7 fl oz per minute

So multiply that by four (for four engines)

Max Thrust: 208 lbs
Engine Weight: 22.12 lbs
Fuel flow at Full Power: 98.8 fl oz per minute

He carries the fuel load on his person so he is going to reach a point where his body + fuel combined weight is going to be too great for the thrust. I note that he limits his flight times to around 1 to 2 minutes and this is probably why.

Thrust ........................208 lb
less Engine weight.........22 lb
less platform weight......20 lb (guess)
less fuel........................13 lb (98.8 fl oz x 2 for 1½ min flight w/30s reserve)*
----------------------------------
Thrust for lift...............153 lb

So if he weighs less than about 11 stone fully clothed, its doable.


* Jet fuel has a lower specific gravity than water and I assume their fuel flow figures account for that.
Doable- but that seems to riding right on the limit.

I don't know about turbines, but do you run them full tit all the time?

One thing that seems weird to me also is a slight bit too much power and you are going upwards, a slight too less and you are going downwards.

Ground effect as discussed earlier does not favour jets.

It should be noted also (baring in mind the engines are at their limit) that moving forward would require more thrust that standing still.

As you can see by the videos he leans forward to go forward. When this happens the angle of the thrust power obviosly changes, from 90degrees to the horizon when stationary to say 70 or so judging by some video.
However the angle of gravity is always 90 degrees.
And when you change the angle of the thrust, the vector working against gravity goes down.

SO in short - to move forward as he does in the videos, he would have to increase the power by quite a bit or he would start to decend rather quickly.

This would also take effect in banking turns.

I do not know how much extra power would be needed to remain aloft per degree off 90, maybe some educcated types can work it out.


I would say a fair bit.

p.s taking this in to consideration - there is a video from the record attempt where he loses stability, however during this 'wobble' he does not lose any or much altitude.

Kind of does not make sense.

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Old 7th June 2016, 03:15 AM   #198
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ON say a motorbike or a boat or jetski, you have to increase power during turns anyway to maintain speed.

He would have to increase power not only to maintain speed during the turn, but also altitude.

This means his throttle must be very sensitive indeed for him to accurately do this in 3d space, as it is the power that is steering the thing, not drag and resistance like with planes wings and boats etcc


Also, can mini jets deliver this instant power fluctuation on demand?

I am no expert on jets but i do not think they can change output as quickly as say a propeller attached to an electric motor or petrol motor can. I think there would be a delay in response as the thing spins down a little or spins up a little. And power delivery may not be entirely linear either. I imagine there is a real sweet spot or power band with these things, kind of like you get on old 2 stroke motorbikes, ie - hard to control the power

this is not handy when you relying on power for steering and altitude

gravity has no delay, it is always pulling with the same force

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Old 7th June 2016, 03:52 AM   #199
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It's called fly by wire ...it's same tech used for drones...any smart phone can balance the parameters.
Jets are very efficient and throttle up instantly as it's entirely fuel feed. You are floundering on this as much as you are in denying the reality of it.

It's more likely the TJ40-G1

88 ft/lb x 4 5.8 " diameter 6.6 lb



http://www.pbsvb.com/customer-indust...urbojet-engine

4 of these would be VERY LOUD!!!!

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Old 7th June 2016, 04:12 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by esspee View Post
I don't know about turbines, but do you run them full tit all thee time?
They throttle, just like big jet engines

Quote:
One thing that seems weird to me also is a slight bit too much power and you are going upwards, a slight too less and you are going downwards.

Ground effect as discussed earlier does not favour jets.
Nonetheless, jet engines work just fine for hovering

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecpCPdUGnWk

Quote:
It should be noted also (baring in mind the engines are at their limit) that moving forward would require more thrust that standing still.
No, it would not. Read on

Quote:
As you can see by the videos he leans forward to go forward. When this happens the angle of the thrust power obviosly changes, from 90degrees to the horizon when stationary to say 70 or so judging by some video.
However the angle of gravity is always 90 degrees.
And when you change the angle of the thrust, the vector working against gravity goes down.
NOTE the divergent angle of the thrust vectors. The Harrier/AV-8B sits on a cone of thrust as I described earlier.



This is why I suspect that the engines are not not parallel, but diverged outwards slightly at the base to create a cone of thrust. When the flyer leans in a direction (we'll call that "forward" for convenience) there will still be some component of the downward thrust in a forwards direction, but the rear thrust vector will be more angled pushing him forward

Perhaps these quickly mocked up drawings will help you to understand.



To turn would be the same thing, lean in the direction you want to go, tipping the platform slightly and the vectored thrust will make the turn for you, then trim the platform around using the ducted fans.
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