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Old 18th April 2019, 08:05 AM   #241
Gingervytes
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No, that's not an external force. Gravity, for example, would be an external force for a rocket. The propellant contained in the rocket, and sharing its velocity state and mechanically coupled to it, is part of the rocket system. Since you were asked twice to address the refutation of your video, and you have declined both times to do so, can we agree that you have no rejoinder for the refutation and cannot rehabilitate the claims your video makes?
Do you have a simple experiment to show what you say is true. I have already shown that there is no equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force. Now it is your turn provide evidence
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:07 AM   #242
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What if it was two pieces?
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:08 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Do you have a simple experiment to show what you say is true. I have already shown that there is no equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force. Now it is your turn provide evidence
*Very slowly* Then how do rockets go into space? Magic? It's all a ruse and there is no space?

Answer the question.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:09 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
The do you agree a moving gas has momentum?



Where is your explanation for why Newton's third law holds in every instance except for rockets in a vacuum?
Because you didnít watch it. There is a clear explanation of why Newtonís third law doesnít apply like it does for pushing and pulling for gas movement due to pressure gradient force
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:10 AM   #245
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AubIFUsq7Ss
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:11 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Very slowly* Then how do rockets go into space? Magic? It's all a ruse and there is no space?

Answer the question.
Do they go into space. Every rocket launch it looks like it went into the ocean
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:11 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
There is a clear explanation of why Newton’s third law doesn’t apply like it does for pushing and pulling for gas movement due to pressure gradient force
OK, but have you got any Brie?

Dave
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:11 AM   #248
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People always rationalize. Even Christians, who put their faith in front of the reason, do rationalize. They do believe because something happened to them. They will explain it in length. It's never 'I believe, because I believe'.
Same with these woo fighters. Sure there are some which are clearly doing it for profit and do not actually believe a word of it. But lots of them do actually believe. And they will use formulas and models. They will use all tools of the science .. except skepticism.
Add Dunning-Kruger effect to the mix, and these people are bound to happen. Everybody is going through the phase of overestimating his knowledge. It's just a matter of how fast he will realize his error.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:13 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Very slowly* Then how do rockets go into space? Magic? It's all a ruse and there is no space?

Answer the question.
Good luck with that request.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:13 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
You know what I meant. Solid chunk is one piece. You could just say a piece of solid.

No you couldn’t, because “solid” is a adjective.
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Last edited by Mojo; 18th April 2019 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:13 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
I can barely believe that a person can so willfully ignorant about basic concepts and the results of well established facts.
Exercises like this are rarely about establishing correct fact, and more often about establishing the speaker as a respectable, if not superior, purveyor of fact and insight. It usually comes down to a fantasy construct where the speaker is an authority and the audience are sheep. This is why you don't see him addressing the questions that dissolve the foundation of that construct. We, the sheeple, believe in NASA and space travel, but he who is more enlightened has seen through the sham.

Quote:
After all, rockets have been successfully operating in the vacuum of space for well over 60 years now.
I infer from his other comments that he does not believe this to be the case, but he has avoided direct questions asking to what extent he believes space travel to be fake. Generally if someone avoids answering a question, you can reasonably conclude the truthful answer is the one least favorable to his claims. I gather therefrom that he doesn't want to bear the stigma of being a large-scale denier of fact.

Quote:
In fact, if rockets could not operate in the vacuum of space, then it would not have been possible for the Apollo astronauts to go to the Moon and back in 1969 (plus a few more times after that).
I doubt he believes the Apollo missions were real.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:16 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
No you couldnít, because ďsolidĒ is a adjective.
Ok then solid piece.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:16 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I doubt he believes the Apollo missions were real.
To be honest, if he believes the Apollo missions were real but rockets are impossible, I'd have a slight but grudging respect for him. Not many people can achieve that level of doublethink.

Dave
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:17 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Good luck with that request.
Indeed he's been asked several times whether he believes any space travel is authentic, and if not then how are certain things accomplished that appear to be the result of functional spacefaring. The inability to explain the evident consequents of an antecedent one means to refute is a failure of the refutation.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:17 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Ok then solid piece.
A solid piece of cheddar, maybe?

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Old 18th April 2019, 08:17 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
Post 217, Gingervytes. Why wonít you answer the questions and refutations already provided you?
(Taps mic) Hello, is this thing on?
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:19 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Not many people can achieve that level of doublethink.
Agreed, yet I know some who have. There was a UFO author in the UK many years ago who simultaneously claimed the Apollo missions were faked, but also that the astronauts found evidence of aliens on the Moon. He was entirely serious and didn't see why that should be considered a contradictory position.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:19 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Because you didnít watch it. There is a clear explanation of why Newtonís third law doesnít apply like it does for pushing and pulling for gas movement due to pressure gradient force
And the explanation is clearly wrong
Newton's 3rd law is universal.

Or are you suggesting that hundreds of satellites (which have manoeuvring thrusters) don't work ? Or that we never landed on the moon ? (the Apollo missions made multiple mid-range manoeuvres using rockets).
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:20 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
A solid piece of cheddar, maybe?
Or Venezuelan beaver cheese.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:21 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
C'mon all you science guys! There is a video! This trumps all of your sciencey mumbo jumbo.
This very much reminds me of:
Originally Posted by Lyte Trip View Post

My see-saw analogy renders any need for "calculations" moot.

Unless you don't believe in gravity.
Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
A sock puppet of someone who really misses the Stundies and is trying to bring them back singlehandedly?
See above.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The "NASA" rocket equation? I thought it was the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation.

Oh, I get it.... Tsiolkovsky was "in on it", a NASA shill, 62 years before NASA was even established.
Thank you for repeating this. When I skimmed the thread above, I really thought that the rockets might have something to do with the 1812 Overture. TSIOL, TSIOL-kovsky. Got it. Not that other guy. I learned a new thing today.

Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Lets say a 75kg person lifts a 100kg weight and he drops it from a height. Why doesnít that person get lifted off the ground? Isnít the weight mass?
Stundie, is that you?

Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
You know what I meant. Solid chunk is one piece. You could just say a piece of solid. Iím sorry that your English is weak
Before parking meters went digital, it used to be common for someone to ask you for a "solid quarter" for the parking meter. Many of us noted that all quarters are indeed solid.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:22 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
(Taps mic) Hello, is this thing on?
I'm sure you agree with me in doubting that you'll ever get a substantive response to your questions. He doesn't have them, and he knows he doesn't. The dynamics of disorganized public debate have given him a linguistic McGuffin to chew on now instead of defending his ignorant view of Newtonian physics. That way he can pretend to be actively engaged without being required to address the hard questions.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:23 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Agreed, yet I know some who have. There was a UFO author in the UK many years ago who simultaneously claimed the Apollo missions were faked, but also that the astronauts found evidence of aliens on the Moon. He was entirely serious and didn't see why that should be considered a contradictory position.

That is clearly a variation of this:


Quote:
After years of searching, the expedition ended. An investigator explained:

"We have concluded that the Loch Ness Monster does not exist, and anyway, it ate our boats."
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:23 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Indeed he's been asked several times whether he believes any space travel is authentic, and if not then how are certain things accomplished that appear to be the result of functional spacefaring. The inability to explain the evident consequents of an antecedent one means to refute is a failure of the refutation.

This rather suggests that he thinks itís a hoax:
Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Do they go into space. Every rocket launch it looks like it went into the ocean

Unless, I suppose, he claims that space flight has been using some other form of propulsion.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:24 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
At this forum, the one in which you are posting, it is considered rude to post a youtube video without any context or summary about what to expect at the link.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:24 AM   #265
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You tell 'em, Gingervytes!

No, b'god, I'll tell 'em!

I'm a handloader. If I load a rifle cartidge with a light bullet and fire it off, it kicks. And if I load a cartridge with a heavier bullet & the same amount of powder & then shoot, IT KICKS HARDER!

Let's see how you answer that, skeptics.

& if I shoot over ocean water, the bullet lands in it just like any other NASTA rocket.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:25 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Because you didn’t watch it. There is a clear explanation of why Newton’s third law doesn’t apply like it does for pushing and pulling for gas movement due to pressure gradient force
The video and you are clearly wrong. Newtons law does not depend on the surrounding fluid/lack of fluid.
Consider a simple experiment.
You have a container that has one and only one opening and you put some mass that has pressure. The pressure is greater than the fluid around the container and is contained in every direction by the container with the exception of the opening. The pressure F= ma will exert that force in all directions except the opening has no confinement. The resulting net force in the opposite direction of that opening will result in the container being accelerated in the opposite direction, regardless of what is around the container.
As Jay sts60 have pointed out to you have failed to present a case that disproves Newton. Your video does not.

Last edited by bknight; 18th April 2019 at 08:29 AM. Reason: Added except for clrity
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:25 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Or Venezuelan beaver cheese.
If the Camembert is runny enough, of course, it'll follow the laws of fluid dynamics. So throwing bits of cheddar backwards makes a rocket move forward, but throwing bits of Camembert will only work if hasn't been left out in the sun. And the cat hasn't eaten it.

Dave
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:27 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Indeed he's been asked several times whether he believes any space travel is authentic, and if not then how are certain things accomplished that appear to be the result of functional spacefaring. The inability to explain the evident consequents of an antecedent one means to refute is a failure of the refutation.
I donít think space travel exists, but who know what other technology is out there. By they certainly do no go into space with rockets
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:28 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
I donít think space travel exists, but who know what other technology is out there. By they certainly do no go into space with rockets
Then you are wrong on a level that makes it not worth discussing anything with you.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:28 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
And the explanation is clearly wrong
And it was explained in detail how it was wrong. One of his critics helpfully showed how the video wrongly portrayed certain scenarios as systems in which Newtonian conservation of momentum should be conserved, and misstated how conservation should be evinced in the cases where momentum applied. He claimed he had addressed the refutation, but cannot show us where; he merely restated the belief that the refutation disputed. Then he demanded a "demonstration." A claimant does not get to insist upon only one of several valid forms of rebuttal; it is perfectly valid to show that the claim is based on an incorrect premise.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:28 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
The video and you are clearly wrong. Newtons law does not depend on the surrounding fluid/lack of fluid.
Consider a simple experiment.
You have a container that has one and only one opening and you put some mass that has pressure. The pressure is greater than the fluid around the container and is contained in every direction by the container with the exception of the opening. The pressure F= ma will exert that force in all directions the opening has no confinement. The resulting net force in the opposite direction of that opening will result in the container being accelerated in the opposite direction, regardless of what is around the container.
As Jay sts60 have pointed out to you have failed to present a case that disproves Newton. Your video does not.
Then why is there no opposite force observed on the scale?
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:31 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
I donít think space travel exists...
Then you are on the hook to answer all the questions that arise from claims that it does. If you have no alternative explanation, your hypothesis is less predictive than the conventional narrative.

Quote:
...but who know what other technology is out there.
You don't, for starters. So you have no answer for how things are accomplished that purport to be space travel. That is a wholly irrational position.

Quote:
By they certainly do no go into space with rockets
It is my profession to do just that. Are you comfortable calling me a liar to my face?
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:31 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
I donít think space travel exists, but who know what other technology is out there. By they certainly do no go into space with rockets
Ah we're getting to the real conspiracy that he has. It only took 7 pages.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:32 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Then why is there no opposite force observed on the scale?
There is no scale, did I indicate that? Read what I wrote, not what you interpret.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:33 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Then you are on the hook to answer all the questions that arise from claims that it does. If you have no alternative explanation, your hypothesis is less predictive than the conventional narrative.



You don't, for starters. So you have no answer for how things are accomplished that purport to be space travel. That is a wholly irrational position.



It is my profession to do just that. Are you comfortable calling me a liar to my face?
Have you seen a rocket go into space?
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:33 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
The video and you are clearly wrong. Newtons law does not depend on the surrounding fluid/lack of fluid.
Consider a simple experiment.
You have a container that has one and only one opening and you put some mass that has pressure. The pressure is greater than the fluid around the container and is contained in every direction by the container with the exception of the opening. The pressure F= ma will exert that force in all directions the opening has no confinement. The resulting net force in the opposite direction of that opening will result in the container being accelerated in the opposite direction, regardless of what is around the container.
As Jay sts60 have pointed out to you have failed to present a case that disproves Newton. Your video does not.
For a real world test, just squirt a garden hose under high pressure and feel the kickback.

But the OP is basically saying you can't do a push up against the air, I take it. You need resistance in the form of the ground, or in the case of a rocket, matter for the gas to push against. How to explain within that self imposed parameter that resistance is not needed?
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:34 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
There is no scale, did I indicate that? Read what I wrote, not what you interpret.
Yes there was a scale in the video. You just choose to ignore it
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:35 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Have you seen a rocket go into space?
Are you arguing that they don't?
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:37 AM   #279
bknight
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Have you seen a rocket go into space?
Yes and from the blackness of accelerating in that vacuum, just watch any current launch. It is to bad these little cameras weren't produced in the 60's-70's to watched the SIV-4 acerbating from the Earth on the way to the Moon.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:38 AM   #280
Gingervytes
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Yes and from the blackness of accelerating in that vacuum, just watch any current launch. It is to bad these little cameras weren't produced in the 60's-70's to watched the SIV-4 acerbating from the Earth on the way to the Moon.
All the rockets ive seen, they donít appear to go into space
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