ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags political speculation , uk politics

Reply
Old 26th June 2019, 01:01 AM   #121
IanS
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,831
One person I did not mention in my last 2 posts, and who I actually forgot about, is Nigel Farage!

People did not like Mrs May and wanted to get her out, but only to find that we might now get a far worse PM in Boris. But if we do find ourselves with a General Election, I had forgotten that it's by no means impossible that we could end up with Nigel Farage as PM!! …

… that would imho be an even worse disaster than the US produced with Donald Trump. It would take the UK much further to the right than at any time in living history, and at least as far to the right as Marine Le Pen in France.

Potentially very dangerous times for the UK, and maybe even for the whole of Europe.
IanS is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 01:04 AM   #122
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,874
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
But if we do find ourselves with a General Election, I had forgotten that it's by no means impossible that we could end up with Nigel Farage as PM!! …
Yes please!

We're desperate for good workers in NZ, and Farage would produce a barrage of them looking to move away from UK.

We'll take the Scots & Welsh. Aussie can have the Pommies.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 02:09 AM   #123
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 40,498
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
One person I did not mention in my last 2 posts, and who I actually forgot about, is Nigel Farage!



People did not like Mrs May and wanted to get her out, but only to find that we might now get a far worse PM in Boris. But if we do find ourselves with a General Election, I had forgotten that it's by no means impossible that we could end up with Nigel Farage as PM!! …



… that would imho be an even worse disaster than the US produced with Donald Trump. It would take the UK much further to the right than at any time in living history, and at least as far to the right as Marine Le Pen in France.



Potentially very dangerous times for the UK, and maybe even for the whole of Europe.
My impression is that Farage has no interest in doing actual work, only creating it for others.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 02:18 AM   #124
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 26,534
Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
My impression is that Farage has no interest in doing actual work, only creating it for others.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that he wouldn't like to hold the post of Prime Minister or one of the major ministries - he could then create work for others by announcing all kinds of grandiose plans, leaving the "details" for others to sort out.

He would absolutely not want to be a junior minister who actually has to do some work and who will be held accountable.

If the Brexit Party is successful electorally then we'll end up with a large number of cabinet members with absolutely no relevant experience at all - quite a frightening prospect - and a disinclination to seek out or listen to experts (be they subject matter experts or the Sir Humphreys in the department) or worse an inclination to actively reject them. This could lead to absolute havoc as they attempt to implement all kinds of nonsense
The Don is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 02:29 AM   #125
P.J. Denyer
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,477
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yes, but that doesn't mean that he wouldn't like to hold the post of Prime Minister or one of the major ministries - he could then create work for others by announcing all kinds of grandiose plans, leaving the "details" for others to sort out.

He would absolutely not want to be a junior minister who actually has to do some work and who will be held accountable.

If the Brexit Party is successful electorally then we'll end up with a large number of cabinet members with absolutely no relevant experience at all - quite a frightening prospect - and a disinclination to seek out or listen to experts (be they subject matter experts or the Sir Humphreys in the department) or worse an inclination to actively reject them. This could lead to absolute havoc as they attempt to implement all kinds of nonsense

We're having to seriously discuss the possibility of the balance of power being held by a 'Party' with no members, no manifesto, no rulebook, no way of challenging or replacing the leader, no public input on MP selection or deselection, deliberately opaque and highly suspect funding and MPs drawn from the worst of British politics and most self serving of British business.

This is really frightening.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

"Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 02:32 AM   #126
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 44,023
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
We're having to seriously discuss the possibility of the balance of power being held by a 'Party' with no members, no manifesto, no rulebook, no way of challenging or replacing the leader, no public input on MP selection or deselection, deliberately opaque and highly suspect funding and MPs drawn from the worst of British politics and most self serving of British business.

This is really frightening.
Agreed. This is where the US and Australia (and probably others) with only two alternative governments and with neither radical and liable to royally **** things up have the better political system.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 02:37 AM   #127
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,786
Seriously.
Daft as many people in this country are, we won't be getting Farage as PM.
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 02:39 AM   #128
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 44,023
Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Seriously.
Daft as many people in this country are, we won't be getting Farage as PM.
Who knows. Trump, Boris and even Morrison shows that incompetent idiots can get the top job.

But I think (and hope) you are correct.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 03:29 AM   #129
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,666
Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Its more that political correctness has failed to stop someone like Boris from taking office. The fact that people constantly complained about it shows that it was merely lip service.
What is this rant supposed to mean?
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 03:34 AM   #130
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,666
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Statistically, it's almost as likely that he was the victim.
Will you be providing a citation for this claim?
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 04:22 AM   #131
SusanB-M1
Incurable Optimist
 
SusanB-M1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,626
Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Somebody reversed a car (probably not theirs) into his front railings when he lived near me (Colebrooke Row Islington) several years ago. He was mayor at the time. I felt considerable sympathy when I saw it and I rated him quite highly at the time (and voted for him twice which are my only two Tory votes). Once or twice I saw him jogging on the nearby Regents Canal and he said hello.

It's a different Boris now though

In my opinion, there are far too many posts and comments made everywhere at the moment about 'Tory voters'. Well, I'm one of them and the comments don't apply to me! I vote conservative and have been a member of the Party for a long time. We have a good MP locally. All MPs make mistakes - they are, after all, human beings - but as far as I'm concerned, they are stil the least worst.


I have, therefore, a vote. I haven't really liked any of the candidates - I have been a remainer from day one anyway, but I shall vote for Jeremy Hunt because he is NOT Boris. I shall not abstain because I shall want to see the numbers for each candidate later on.


Yesterday I had an e-mail from the Leadership Dept and the subject was: Confirm your attendance at the south central hustings.
I opened it and the content was about the first ballot to reduce the number of MPs wanting to be PM to two. I rang the secretary at the local office and apparently this hustings is tomorrow at The Pavilion in Bournemouth. She said she would see if there was anyone who could take me.

I rang Central Office > Leadership Dept |> hustings dept and told them how inefficient their e-mails are, but insisted they check whether my name was on the list of people to be there. It was, but much as I'd like to go, I'm going to have to stay away because:
- if it is in The Pavilion, they must be expecting a large crowd
-there will be too many hazards for me,even if I had someone guiding me
the person guiding me will not know my difficulties well
it will be dark - for me - inside the theatre and on the way home
etc

I can't see any way I can do it.


]
SusanB-M1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 04:29 AM   #132
IanS
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,831
Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
My impression is that Farage has no interest in doing actual work, only creating it for others.

I don't have any clear idea of what Farage would do if his Brexit party did win a GE in Britain, i.e. whether he'd actually step down as head of that Party and let another of it's MP's take over as PM.

But many people who have worked with Boris Johnson, both within the Conservative party and before that when Boris was editor of the Spectator, say Boris's method of doing a job is not to do it himself but instead to appoint other people to do it for him. Also, whilst I'm bing unkind/unfair to Boris - I don't know how many people have checked his actual name, but its rather showy/flamboyant in parts, i.e. Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson .
IanS is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 04:37 AM   #133
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,786
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Who knows. Trump, Boris and even Morrison shows that incompetent idiots can get the top job.

But I think (and hope) you are correct.
Those three all came in (assuming Boris wins) through a major party.
The Faragists have no party infrastructure at the moment.

A general election is a different beast to an EU election.

They need a manifesto for starters.
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 05:17 AM   #134
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 16,186
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
The really, really sad thing is that Corbyn would be an even more disgraceful, embarrassing and incompetent PM. The UK is ****** either way.
So says an Australian? It seems all of Corbyn's knockers are not even Labour party members or voters.

The Tory press says Jeremy will be a catastrophe for the country, so it must be right...
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 05:20 AM   #135
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 16,186
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
One person I did not mention in my last 2 posts, and who I actually forgot about, is Nigel Farage!

People did not like Mrs May and wanted to get her out, but only to find that we might now get a far worse PM in Boris. But if we do find ourselves with a General Election, I had forgotten that it's by no means impossible that we could end up with Nigel Farage as PM!! …

… that would imho be an even worse disaster than the US produced with Donald Trump. It would take the UK much further to the right than at any time in living history, and at least as far to the right as Marine Le Pen in France.

Potentially very dangerous times for the UK, and maybe even for the whole of Europe.
Simply won't happen. Next time around, the EU citizens will get to cast their votes.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 05:24 AM   #136
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 44,023
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So says an Australian? It seems all of Corbyn's knockers are not even Labour party members or voters.

The Tory press says Jeremy will be a catastrophe for the country, so it must be right...
Me being an Australian means what? You are welcome to comment about Australian politics....
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 05:26 AM   #137
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 16,186
Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
In my opinion, there are far too many posts and comments made everywhere at the moment about 'Tory voters'. Well, I'm one of them and the comments don't apply to me! I vote conservative and have been a member of the Party for a long time. We have a good MP locally. All MPs make mistakes - they are, after all, human beings - but as far as I'm concerned, they are stil the least worst.


I have, therefore, a vote. I haven't really liked any of the candidates - I have been a remainer from day one anyway, but I shall vote for Jeremy Hunt because he is NOT Boris. I shall not abstain because I shall want to see the numbers for each candidate later on.


Yesterday I had an e-mail from the Leadership Dept and the subject was: Confirm your attendance at the south central hustings.
I opened it and the content was about the first ballot to reduce the number of MPs wanting to be PM to two. I rang the secretary at the local office and apparently this hustings is tomorrow at The Pavilion in Bournemouth. She said she would see if there was anyone who could take me.

I rang Central Office > Leadership Dept |> hustings dept and told them how inefficient their e-mails are, but insisted they check whether my name was on the list of people to be there. It was, but much as I'd like to go, I'm going to have to stay away because:
- if it is in The Pavilion, they must be expecting a large crowd
-there will be too many hazards for me,even if I had someone guiding me
the person guiding me will not know my difficulties well
it will be dark - for me - inside the theatre and on the way home
etc

I can't see any way I can do it.


]
SusanB, do you agree with what Jeremy Hunt apparently said today in a radio interview that he agreed with a phone-in listener who claimed 'the EU have shown complete disrespect to the UK?'


I thought Donald Tusk in particular has been infinitely patience in dealing with the UK.

I like Hunt's 'family values' ethos but I am not sure I agree with him here.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 05:28 AM   #138
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 26,534
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So says an Australian? It seems all of Corbyn's knockers are not even Labour party members or voters.

The Tory press says Jeremy will be a catastrophe for the country, so it must be right...
I'm an ex-Labour Party member (close to 25 years membership) and so far have voted in every general election I've been eligible to vote in and have voted for Labour every time.

I think that Jeremy Corbyn has been a dreadful leader of the opposition and would be a very poor Prime Minister. My main criticisms of him are:
  • His political opinions and policies are horribly outdated and hark back to the issues of the 1970s, not the current day
  • He is a man of principle which in turn means that it is difficult for him to compromise or generate a consensus within a party as broad as the Labour Party
  • He has a long history of voting against the party, which makes it difficult for him to insist on loyalty in turn
  • His views and past actions are too easy to lampoon by the right wing press and he makes it too simple to portray him as a monster in waiting
  • By being a Brexit supporter, he is actively working against the interests of those he purports to serve

A friend (lifelong Labour voter who has recently left the party) has said that his daughter has also left the Labour party specifically because of Jeremy Corbyn's lack of leadership and views on Brexit.

Not all criticism of Jeremy Corbyn comes from the right wing press.
The Don is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 05:32 AM   #139
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 26,534
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Simply won't happen. Next time around, the EU citizens will get to cast their votes.
EU citizens in general are not eligible to vote in UK General Elections. IanS was talking about who would become the next prime minister following a General Election. The exceptions are Irish, Cyprus or Malta citizens who are UK residents.
The Don is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 05:36 AM   #140
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 16,186
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Me being an Australian means what? You are welcome to comment about Australian politics....
OK, then. In which way will Jeremy Corbyn as PM mean the UK is '******'?
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 05:40 AM   #141
jeremyp
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 777
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So says an Australian? It seems all of Corbyn's knockers are not even Labour party members or voters.
Not true. I know Labour Party members who resent the way he came in and brought masses of supporters who "aren't real Labour Party people" so he can't be shifted out now. Coincidentally, I also know one of that influx of supporters who actually worked very hard as a campaigner during the last general election but who won't vote Labour again because of Jeremy Corbyn's stance on Brexit and his inept handling of it.

There are plenty of Labour people critical of Corbyn and when it comes to votes, they are in a minority.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 05:42 AM   #142
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 25,172
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Agreed. This is where the US and Australia (and probably others) with only two alternative governments and with neither radical and liable to royally **** things up have the better political system.
No. The UK system means that even if Farage gets millions of votes in the general election, his party is unlikely to get very many seats. The rank and file of Tory voters will not defect completely so all that would happen is a split from the Tory votes. Labour and Lib Dems would end up picking up a lot of seats.

Seriously, Farage’s party are not going to win a general election.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 05:45 AM   #143
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 16,186
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'm an ex-Labour Party member (close to 25 years membership) and so far have voted in every general election I've been eligible to vote in and have voted for Labour every time.

I think that Jeremy Corbyn has been a dreadful leader of the opposition and would be a very poor Prime Minister. My main criticisms of him are:
  • His political opinions and policies are horribly outdated and hark back to the issues of the 1970s, not the current day
  • He is a man of principle which in turn means that it is difficult for him to compromise or generate a consensus within a party as broad as the Labour Party
  • He has a long history of voting against the party, which makes it difficult for him to insist on loyalty in turn
  • His views and past actions are too easy to lampoon by the right wing press and he makes it too simple to portray him as a monster in waiting
  • By being a Brexit supporter, he is actively working against the interests of those he purports to serve

A friend (lifelong Labour voter who has recently left the party) has said that his daughter has also left the Labour party specifically because of Jeremy Corbyn's lack of leadership and views on Brexit.

Not all criticism of Jeremy Corbyn comes from the right wing press.

ISTM the issue is that Labour Party have always suffered from a 'Blairite'-type faction, which deems, 'why can't the labour party be more like the conservatives?'

Then there are those who see support of Palestine as proof of 'anti-Semitism'. I am pro-Isael but I don't see that being pro-Palestine equates to 'anti-Semitic'. There are pros and cons to both sides.

IMV the labour party has suffered for years thanks to the knock-on effects of tory-boy Blair. People reason they may as well vote for the real thing and vote tory.

Corbyn is prinicipled and that is a big positive IMV in a world of cynicism. I know plenty of labour party supporters who are pro-Brexit.

Being remain is not necessarily the Labour default. Corbyn's reasons for being pro-Brexit are based on the fact the EU is a capitalist consortium whose aim is to get cheap labour and cheap raw materials to the profit of its capitalist classes, very different reasons from Farage or Johnson who want to sneak in a Steve Bannon-style far right agenda a la Donald Trump.

That is sinister.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 05:49 AM   #144
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 25,010
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No. The UK system means that even if Farage gets millions of votes in the general election, his party is unlikely to get very many seats. The rank and file of Tory voters will not defect completely so all that would happen is a split from the Tory votes. Labour and Lib Dems would end up picking up a lot of seats.

Seriously, Farage’s party are not going to win a general election.
Yep. And the only way the Brexit party will even stand in the next GE (assuming it's before Brexit day) is if there is any doubt about whether the UK is actually going to leave. Johnson knows this and will do anything to ensure we do leave.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 05:50 AM   #145
jeremyp
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 777
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OK, then. In which way will Jeremy Corbyn as PM mean the UK is '******'?
I'll answer that: he is utterly useless.

Think back to the 2017 general election which he failed to win in spite of the fact that Teresa May did everything in her power to lose it

.At the time, many Labour supporters celebrated the result as if they had won, but when the dust had settled, Teresa May was still prime minister. When I used to point that out, Labour supporters would say things like "at the start of the election Corbyn was miles back in the polls so he did much better than expected". This is true, but he still lost and why was he miles back in the polls against the government of Brexit and austerity? It's because he is useless.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 05:53 AM   #146
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 17,963
It's really difficult to espouse opinions that the owners of newspapers really don't like (cos they're rich and some of them are in tax exile)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7163706.html
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 05:58 AM   #147
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 16,186
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
I'll answer that: he is utterly useless.

Think back to the 2017 general election which he failed to win in spite of the fact that Teresa May did everything in her power to lose it

.At the time, many Labour supporters celebrated the result as if they had won, but when the dust had settled, Teresa May was still prime minister. When I used to point that out, Labour supporters would say things like "at the start of the election Corbyn was miles back in the polls so he did much better than expected". This is true, but he still lost and why was he miles back in the polls against the government of Brexit and austerity? It's because he is useless.
He comes across as ineffectual and it was frustrating he didn't press for a second referendum earlier. That being said, there are inter-party disputes which is also reflected in the factionalised broken tory party.

The EU is not going to renegotiate with Boris or Jeremy and neither has shown any humility at all but rather an uncalled for show of entitlement. They are going to plunge the UK into a horrible recession -which has already started - rather than act responsibily.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 05:58 AM   #148
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 26,534
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
ISTM the issue is that Labour Party have always suffered from a 'Blairite'-type faction, which deems, 'why can't the labour party be more like the conservatives?'
Ah, the old "No true Scotsman" logical fallacy

Right now, criticism of Jeremy Corbyn and his handling of Brexit seems to be coming from everyone apart from his immediate cadre - including most of the parliamentary Labour Party and Labour Party membership. Sure you can dismiss all of these as part of some Blairite faction but they seem to outnumber the "true" Labour loyalists.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Then there are those who see support of Palestine as proof of 'anti-Semitism'. I am pro-Isael but I don't see that being pro-Palestine equates to 'anti-Semitic'. There are pros and cons to both sides.
There are, but I've not criticised Jeremy Corbyn for being antisemitic.

There is evidence of antisemitism within the Labour Party but it long predates Jeremy Corbyn's leadership and similar focus may identify similar cases in other parties.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
IMV the labour party has suffered for years thanks to the knock-on effects of tory-boy Blair. People reason they may as well vote for the real thing and vote tory.
There is a big difference between New Labour and the Conservative Party. If you need evidence of this, just consider all the changes that the Conservative-led coalition made in the name of "austerity" to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Corbyn is prinicipled and that is a big positive IMV in a world of cynicism. I know plenty of labour party supporters who are pro-Brexit.
Principled can be a positive, but principled and inflexible results in dogmatic. Jeremy Corbyn is undoubtedly the latter, he seems impervious to new information or fundamental societal changes and his views and policies are invariant.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Being remain is not necessarily the Labour default. Corbyn's reasons for being pro-Brexit are based on the fact the EU is a capitalist consortium whose aim is to get cheap labour and cheap raw materials to the profit of its capitalist classes, very different reasons from Farage or Johnson who want to sneak in a Steve Bannon-style far right agenda a la Donald Trump.

That is sinister.
It's not the default but 2/3 of Labour voters voted to Remain and recent polls put that number close to 3/4 so it's a minority view within the party and one where there is good evidence that it is driving away support (such as the YouGov poll which indicated that Labour would have been clear winners in the recent European elections had they adopted a Remain or even second referendum stance).

It's true that Jeremy Corbyn seems to want to establish a workers' utopia but that would require the UK to pretend that globalism doesn't exist and/or to disengage entirely from it.

It also flies in the face of the evidence that immigration from the EU hasn't driven down wages (but then again, Jeremy Corbyn appears impervious to any facts that challenge his views).
The Don is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 06:07 AM   #149
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 16,186
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Ah, the old "No true Scotsman" logical fallacy

Right now, criticism of Jeremy Corbyn and his handling of Brexit seems to be coming from everyone apart from his immediate cadre - including most of the parliamentary Labour Party and Labour Party membership. Sure you can dismiss all of these as part of some Blairite faction but they seem to outnumber the "true" Labour loyalists.



There are, but I've not criticised Jeremy Corbyn for being antisemitic.

There is evidence of antisemitism within the Labour Party but it long predates Jeremy Corbyn's leadership and similar focus may identify similar cases in other parties.



There is a big difference between New Labour and the Conservative Party. If you need evidence of this, just consider all the changes that the Conservative-led coalition made in the name of "austerity" to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.



Principled can be a positive, but principled and inflexible results in dogmatic. Jeremy Corbyn is undoubtedly the latter, he seems impervious to new information or fundamental societal changes and his views and policies are invariant.



It's not the default but 2/3 of Labour voters voted to Remain and recent polls put that number close to 3/4 so it's a minority view within the party and one where there is good evidence that it is driving away support (such as the YouGov poll which indicated that Labour would have been clear winners in the recent European elections had they adopted a Remain or even second referendum stance).

It's true that Jeremy Corbyn seems to want to establish a workers' utopia but that would require the UK to pretend that globalism doesn't exist and/or to disengage entirely from it.

It also flies in the face of the evidence that immigration from the EU hasn't driven down wages (but then again, Jeremy Corbyn appears impervious to any facts that challenge his views).
It did drive down wages, as evidenced that, with the mass brexodus of EU workers, wages for construction workers and especially engineers has risen sharply due to a shortage of labour.

Quote:
The industry’s best senior site managers are now earning close to an MP’s salary after a year of wage inflation.

A survey of 6,800 permanent placed construction jobs shows salaries across the sector jumped 9% to £45,900 in the 12 months to the end of May.

Rising wages have been blamed on a shrinking pool of talent caused by a builder Brexodus.

Site engineers have enjoyed fastest growing pay, with average asking salaries surging 19%, from £37,100 to £44,300. The best site engineers in the capital are now being paid up to £68,700.
http://www.constructionenquirer.com/...eer-pay-up-19/

The thought of an influx of cheap labour from poorer EU countries was a driving force behind the 'Leave' vote IMV.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 06:07 AM   #150
jeremyp
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 777
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
ISTM the issue is that Labour Party have always suffered from a 'Blairite'-type faction, which deems, 'why can't the labour party be more like the conservatives?'
The "Blairite" Labour Party is the only party that has beaten the Tories in a general election in the last 30 years. The last eleven general elections were won by Tories eight times and Tony Blair three times. James Callaghan, Michael Foot, Neil Kinnock, Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn were all losers. I know Tony Blair did some bad things during his presidency prime ministership including climbing inside GW Bush's bottom but the Blairites were able to make Labour electable.

Quote:
Then there are those who see support of Palestine as proof of 'anti-Semitism'. I am pro-Isael but I don't see that being pro-Palestine equates to 'anti-Semitic'. There are pros and cons to both sides.
It's being uncritically pro-Palestine that is the problem.

Quote:
IMV the labour party has suffered for years thanks to the knock-on effects of tory-boy Blair. People reason they may as well vote for the real thing and vote tory.
Tony Blair has been gone for more than ten years. In my view the biggest damage he did to the Labour Party was by virtue of the fact that many of the best people in it were tainted by association with the Blair-Brown period. Thus the party has been run by second rate non entities ever since.

Quote:
Corbyn's reasons for being pro-Brexit are based on the fact the EU is a capitalist consortium whose aim is to get cheap labour and cheap raw materials to the profit of its capitalist classes, very different reasons from Farage or Johnson who want to sneak in a Steve Bannon-style far right agenda a la Donald Trump.

That is sinister.
No, it's a lie.

Last edited by jeremyp; 26th June 2019 at 06:18 AM. Reason: Freudian slip
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 06:13 AM   #151
jeremyp
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 777
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He comes across as ineffectual
Because he is ineffectual.

Quote:
and it was frustrating he didn't press for a second referendum earlier.
Yes, but he wants Brexit. He keeps very quiet about it for some reason though. I can't vote for any party that is pro-Brexit but I would at least respect him a bit more if he had advertised his views a bit more.

Quote:
That being said, there are inter-party disputes which is also reflected in the factionalised broken tory party.
Do you mean inter? or do you mean intra?

Quote:
The EU is not going to renegotiate with Boris or Jeremy and neither has shown any humility at all but rather an uncalled for show of entitlement. They are going to plunge the UK into a horrible recession -which has already started - rather than act responsibily.
I think that hits the nail bang on the head with respect to the state of the Tory Party and Brexit. Our only hope is that the government collapses before it is too late.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 06:31 AM   #152
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,786
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It's really difficult to espouse opinions that the owners of newspapers really don't like (cos they're rich and some of them are in tax exile)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7163706.html
If you note the date on that article you'll see it was a month after the rferendum.
A referendum in which Jeremy was noticeable by his absence.
Foorgive me if I think the guy's a complete ******** for that.

ETA: Better stick the post I was replying to in there!
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 06:34 AM   #153
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,786
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He comes across as ineffectual and it was frustrating he didn't press for a second referendum earlier.
He is innefectual.
He is doing really badly in the polls against a Tory party that is in a shambles.

And he still doesn't want a second referendum.
He never has.

His party are having to drag him towards it kicking and screaming.
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 06:53 AM   #154
Francesca R
Girl
 
Francesca R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 18,475
Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
I vote conservative and have been a member of the Party for a long time.
I'm not a member of any; I considered joining Labour to vote against Corbyn but I didn't and it would not have mattered. I have voted Liberal Democrat (more than anything else, general elections 2010 2015 2017, almost all council elections and European Parliament ones) Labour (general elections 1997-2005, Mayor of London 2004, 2016) Conservative (Mayor, 2008 2012) and independent (Ken Livingstone, Mayor 2000). I approved of the Lib Dems doing a coalition with the Tories in 2010 and was even glad they were compelled to drop free university tuition but all their other supporters hated both these things. I do not like Labour or the Tories right now. My Labour MP (Thornberry) is OK but too close for comfort to Corbyn.

Quote:
Yesterday I had an e-mail from the Leadership Dept and the subject was: Confirm your attendance at the south central hustings.
I opened it and the content was about the first ballot to reduce the number of MPs wanting to be PM to two.
Hasn't this already been done by MPs?

Can you vote postally for Hunt v Johnson? I would be surprised if not.
Francesca R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 07:22 AM   #155
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 26,534
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It did drive down wages, as evidenced that, with the mass brexodus of EU workers, wages for construction workers and especially engineers has risen sharply due to a shortage of labour.

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/...eer-pay-up-19/

The thought of an influx of cheap labour from poorer EU countries was a driving force behind the 'Leave' vote IMV.
A single data point from a single industry at a single point in time reflecting a brief constriction for a particular job role. Comprehensive studies have shown that EU immigration has not driven down wages:

https://assets.publishing.service.go...EEA_report.PDF
The Don is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 07:27 AM   #156
NWO Sentryman
Proud NWO Gatekeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,993
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
What is this rant supposed to mean?
that political correctness is a facade people pay lip service to in public, and make their opinions REALLY known when it suits them.
__________________
If I now say "dominoes", you won't think "pizza". Will you? - FireGarden on the Middle East
NWO Sentryman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 07:34 AM   #157
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,786
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
A single data point from a single industry at a single point in time reflecting a brief constriction for a particular job role. Comprehensive studies have shown that EU immigration has not driven down wages:

https://assets.publishing.service.go...EEA_report.PDF
And the idea that a shortage of builders etc is a good thing strikes me as bizarre since we're supposed to be building tens of thousands of houses a year.

That's like suggesting a shortage of nurses is a Good Thing.

Otherwise known as a bloody stupid idea.
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 08:28 AM   #158
Francesca R
Girl
 
Francesca R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 18,475
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Comprehensive studies have shown that EU immigration has not driven down wages:

https://assets.publishing.service.go...EEA_report.PDF
The report you link actually says it did (a bit)
Quote:
In terms of wages the existing evidence and the analysis we present in the report suggests that migration is not a major determinate of the wages of UK born workers. We found some evidence suggesting that lower-skilled workers face a negative impact while higher-skilled workers benefit, however the magnitude of the impacts are generally small.
Anyway, in my view it is entirely plausible that if there is free migration from (on balance) low wage countries to higher wage countries then of course allowing it should narrow the gap some. The primary reason many EU nationals came to the UK was a sizeable income bump. I think it would be extraordinary to expect that this had no effect on pay in the relevant jobs.

But 1) it should also mean that prices of the related goods or services should also fall and 2) it should not mean that aggregate wages fall and 3) it seems that none of these effects are anything but small even though the pre-existing differences in wages between the UK and countries that large migration came from are actually rather big.

Personally I think benefits of migration are much bigger than costs and I would have voted for a political party that had a manifesto to increase net immigration to a million rather than one promising to cut it to 100,000, but I would not deny there are any costs.
Francesca R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 08:44 AM   #159
IanS
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,831
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Simply won't happen. Next time around, the EU citizens will get to cast their votes.

A certainty in politics you say? And what's more, alleged certainty of outcome in what is clearly the most uncertain of times in UK politics for perhaps 100 years. I think, not!

To repeat (sorry about that!) - if Boris becomes PM (looks highly likely at present ... but almost any surprise could happen yet; especially with Boris!), then it's very likely that he will get no new deal from the EU, and he will as a result be forced to offer the HoC a No Deal Exit ... on all evidence so far, that option would be rejected by MP's (though it could be very close) ... in that case Boris begins to look to the Conservative MP's like an even greater liability and an even bigger embarrassment than Mrs May in her very worst moments ... that may easily lead to a General Election ...

... in that case, Farage has already sworn that he will field a nationwide set of candidates for his Brexit Party.

If you think the Brexit party cannot possibly win, then you are an absolutely awful judge of politics lol!

Farage & his Brexit Party may not be the favourites in a GE, but they already showed that they can count on about 30% of the electorate as absolutely insistent on voting for Farage regardless of any other policies or any other issues at all. That, by any parties standards, is a very big threat indeed ...

... and they do not need anything else at all in a Manifesto. For Farage, the Brexit party, and about 30% of the electorate, this would be a one-issue election.

30% may not be enough to give Farage victory, but he would probably only need to pick up another 6% or 7% (something like that … keep in mind, that would be 6% -7% votes gone from any of the other parties).

Personally as I said above, I think the most likely result would be a narrowish Labour victory, with say a Majority of maybe 15 seats. But another obvious possibility is that Labour and Lib Dem could agree on an anti-Brexit coalition, with their votes added together to give a majority of maybe about 30 or 40.

Last edited by IanS; 26th June 2019 at 08:47 AM.
IanS is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 10:22 AM   #160
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 16,186
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
A single data point from a single industry at a single point in time reflecting a brief constriction for a particular job role. Comprehensive studies have shown that EU immigration has not driven down wages:

https://assets.publishing.service.go...EEA_report.PDF
Page 9, point 8:

Quote:
In terms of wages the existing evidence and the analysis we present in the
report suggests that migration is not a major determinate of the wages of UKborn workers. We found some evidence suggesting that lower-skilled workers
face a negative impact
while higher-skilled workers benefit, however the
magnitude of the impacts are generally small.
As the lower skilled worker comprises the vast majority, then there is a negative impact in general. I am not sure how the higher skilled benefit as the highly skilled from East Europe are happy to settle for a lower salary than a UK professional, simply because it is still much better than what they would have got at home.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:38 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.