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Tags Recep Erdogan , Turkey issues , Turkey politics , US-Turkey relations

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Old 12th July 2019, 02:38 AM   #1
Captain_Swoop
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Turkey defies US as Russian S-400 missile defence arrives

Turkey has received the first parts of a Russian S-400 missile defence system despite opposition from the US.

The shipment arrived in an airbase in the capital Ankara on Friday, the Turkish defence ministry says.

The move will anger the US, which has warned that Turkey cannot have both the S-400 anti-aircraft defence system and US F-35 fighter jets.

Turkey and the US are Nato allies - but Turkey has also been establishing closer links with Russia.

Turkey has signed up to buying 100 US F-35s, and has invested heavily in the F-35 programme.

However, US defence officials have said they do not want the F-35 jets to be near S-400 systems - because they fear Russian technicians will be able to access the F-35's vulnerabilities.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48962885
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Old 12th July 2019, 02:45 AM   #2
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As usual Erdogan is playing all against each other. As soon as any parts arrive, a swarm of NATO engineers will examine them, despite the beef on the public scene. I don't think the Russians are acting wisely by giving that kind of technology to the Turks. Unless they've made certain modifications.
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Old 12th July 2019, 02:53 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Turkey has received the first parts of a Russian S-400 missile defence system despite opposition from the US.

The shipment arrived in an airbase in the capital Ankara on Friday, the Turkish defence ministry says.

The move will anger the US, which has warned that Turkey cannot have both the S-400 anti-aircraft defence system and US F-35 fighter jets.

Turkey and the US are Nato allies - but Turkey has also been establishing closer links with Russia.

Turkey has signed up to buying 100 US F-35s, and has invested heavily in the F-35 programme.

However, US defence officials have said they do not want the F-35 jets to be near S-400 systems - because they fear Russian technicians will be able to access the F-35's vulnerabilities.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48962885
It's just a plan to foster conflict between Turkey and the West that will allow Erdogan to dismantle the secular democracy and build his Islamofascist regime. It has nothing to do with national defence at all.

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Old 17th July 2019, 01:16 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It's just a plan to foster conflict between Turkey and the West that will allow Erdogan to dismantle the secular democracy and build his Islamofascist regime. It has nothing to do with national defence at all.

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Old 17th July 2019, 04:53 PM   #5
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It's all Obama's fault, of course!

ETA:
Quote:
And frankly I've always had a very good relationship" with Erdogan, Trump added.
Of course he had. Erdogan puts his opponents in prison, Trump would like to.
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Old 17th July 2019, 05:57 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Turkey has received the first parts of a Russian S-400 missile defence system despite opposition from the US.

The shipment arrived in an airbase in the capital Ankara on Friday, the Turkish defence ministry says.

The move will anger the US, which has warned that Turkey cannot have both the S-400 anti-aircraft defence system and US F-35 fighter jets.

Turkey and the US are Nato allies - but Turkey has also been establishing closer links with Russia.

Turkey has signed up to buying 100 US F-35s, and has invested heavily in the F-35 programme.

However, US defence officials have said they do not want the F-35 jets to be near S-400 systems - because they fear Russian technicians will be able to access the F-35's vulnerabilities.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48962885

It probably won't work anyways
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Old 17th July 2019, 09:24 PM   #7
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Erdogan wants Trump to hand him Gulen - as Flynn promised he would.
Escalating the conflict until Trump does is a strategy by Erdogan.
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Old 18th July 2019, 04:22 AM   #8
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Why would Russia sell the system to a NATO member?
They must know they are making it available to examination by NATO technicians.
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Old 18th July 2019, 06:29 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why would Russia sell the system to a NATO member?
They must know they are making it available to examination by NATO technicians.
Probably a downgraded 'export model' of the system. It's not uncommon for exporters to remove some critical technology systems and substitute alternate, older, simpler, or already compromised components in systems going to unsecure locations. The Soviets endearingly referred to the export versions as "monkey models".

Last edited by Pope130; 18th July 2019 at 06:30 AM.
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Old 18th July 2019, 08:00 AM   #10
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So why would Turkey buy it?
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Old 18th July 2019, 08:08 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So why would Turkey buy it?
Good question. Possibly to curry favor with Russia, possibly to build up NATO-independent defense capabilities in anticipation of estrangement from NATO (bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy there, but might have happened anyways), possibly because it's relatively cheap. I'm sure there are factors I haven't considered.
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Old 18th July 2019, 08:10 AM   #12
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I actually wonder at times if being a perfect storm of both metaphorical and literal middle ground between NATO/Europe/American and Russia is exactly where Turkey wants to stay and there's just going to play both sides, balancing the scales, as long as possible.
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Old 18th July 2019, 08:21 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So why would Turkey buy it?
Possibly to induce the West to supply higher grade equipment on more favorable terms.
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Old 18th July 2019, 08:51 AM   #14
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Turkey seems to be playing the sovereign nation card. They are not letting people outside of Turkey make decisions for them.

I am sure the version they will get will be a lessor model in the electronics. Just as when the US sells tanks and such. No night vision or communication gear at all. Advanced weapons and related, forget it.
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Old 18th July 2019, 08:54 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
Probably a downgraded 'export model' of the system. It's not uncommon for exporters to remove some critical technology systems and substitute alternate, older, simpler, or already compromised components in systems going to unsecure locations. The Soviets endearingly referred to the export versions as "monkey models".
Can you give a cite for the "monkey models" thing being a Soviet coinage? I've only ever seen it on 4chan, and I had assumed it originated with the racist-trollist faction there.

Also, "monkey model" is an alliterative epithet in English. The corresponding epithet in Russian, обезьяна модель, is not. Also, the two words have the same number of syllables in English, but a different number of syllables in Russian. To me, all of this points to a coinage by English speakers for English speakers, relying on the tones and rhythms of spoken English to create a memorable and pithy epithet. In English.

While I speculate about 4chan trolls above, I have no good ideas about the actual etymology of the term. If it turns out that we do know where it came from, and it turns out to be a translation or adaptation of Soviet-era Russian military jargon, that would be pretty neat.

So. Do you have a cite?
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Old 18th July 2019, 09:17 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Good question. Possibly to curry favor with Russia, possibly to build up NATO-independent defense capabilities in anticipation of estrangement from NATO (bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy there, but might have happened anyways), possibly because it's relatively cheap. I'm sure there are factors I haven't considered.
Ironically, even export versions of the S-400 are probably more than adequate to defend agains the current Russian air force. Turkey would only need the latest and greatest if they were concerned about 5th-gen aircraft, which Russia doesn't really have at the moment. If the PAK-FA were a real plane, and a real threat, I'm sure Turkey would be clamoring for Patriot or AEGIS Ashore.
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Old 18th July 2019, 09:36 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
To me, all of this points to a coinage by English speakers for English speakers, relying on the tones and rhythms of spoken English to create a memorable and pithy epithet. In English.
Apparently coined by a native Russian speaker fluent in English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export...tary_equipment
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:09 PM   #18
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So now Trump has kicked Turkey out of the F-35 program in which it has been a major partner and minor producer, with the plan to buy 100 pieces. But like Erdogan has told the public Trump has promised him on the sidelines of the G20 meeting, no sanctions under CAATSA have been implemented or even threatened, and the comments of US and NATO talking heads were even deescalating. Meanwhile Russia has offered SU-57s while ROFLing.
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:16 AM   #19
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SU-57s hahahaha well, I suppose they want to damage NATO.
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Old 19th July 2019, 01:39 PM   #20
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The good news is, there's no downgrade from the Soviet model to the monkey model of the Su-57.

The bad news is, the Russians don't even have enough monkey model Su-57s to meet their own needs. I'm sure they were ROFLing when they promised Turkey could have some.
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Old 19th July 2019, 01:41 PM   #21
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They actually offer SU-35s. Dunno if it was my fault or in the article I've read.
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Old 19th July 2019, 01:52 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
They actually offer SU-35s. Dunno if it was my fault or in the article I've read.
Ah, that makes more sense. Thanks for the update!
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:09 PM   #23
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Old stock then?
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:15 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
They actually offer SU-35s. Dunno if it was my fault or in the article I've read.
Looks like both the SU-57 and the SU-35 have both been offered.

From: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/rus...er-jets-143123
Russia was “ready to cooperate” to sell Ankara Su-57 fighter jets if Turkey’s participation in the F-35 jet program with the U.S. fell through, the head of the Russian state-owned Rostec Corporation’s Sergey Chemezov said on May 2.
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:20 PM   #25
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SU-57 is years away from proper deployment. They have to sort the engines out for starters.
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:22 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Old stock then?
According to wiki, the Su-35 is a relatively new plane, with several modern variants. It looks to be about the same era and design as the F-15E. So probably not old stock at all. I don't think there really can be old stock of this plane.
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:23 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Looks like both the SU-57 and the SU-35 have both been offered.

From: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/rus...er-jets-143123
Russia was “ready to cooperate” to sell Ankara Su-57 fighter jets if Turkey’s participation in the F-35 jet program with the U.S. fell through, the head of the Russian state-owned Rostec Corporation’s Sergey Chemezov said on May 2.
I'm sure Russia would love to have someone - anyone - buying Su-57s. But there's an important distinction between offering Su-57s for sale, and actually having any to sell. This distinction is probably not lost on the Turks.
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Old 19th July 2019, 02:39 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
SU-57 is years away from proper deployment. They have to sort the engines out for starters.
And when Russia was working on the plane with India, the Indians looked at the poor engineering and said "No thanks". (It is apparently not as stealthy as Russia promised. There was also a problem with Russia being unwilling to share certain technical information with India.)
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Old 22nd July 2019, 03:27 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
So now Trump has kicked Turkey out of the F-35 program in which it has been a major partner and minor producer, with the plan to buy 100 pieces. But like Erdogan has told the public Trump has promised him on the sidelines of the G20 meeting, no sanctions under CAATSA have been implemented or even threatened, and the comments of US and NATO talking heads were even deescalating. Meanwhile Russia has offered SU-57s while ROFLing.

Next round: Apparently Congress and Pompeo are trying to put the CAATSA sanctions on Turkey against Trump's will, which yesterday made the Turkish foreign minister say on national TV that they would respond "in kind". And he dared to mention the bad word: İncirlik.
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Old 27th July 2019, 01:28 AM   #30
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Wasn't Turkey also supposed to be a 'repair partner' in Europe (close-ish!) for F-35?
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Old 30th July 2019, 02:18 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I actually wonder at times if being a perfect storm of both metaphorical and literal middle ground between NATO/Europe/American and Russia is exactly where Turkey wants to stay and there's just going to play both sides, balancing the scales, as long as possible.
I agree with this. Erdoğan has done well at keeping his distance from the US and Russia and drawing closer when it's necessary. I think his real desire is to become the dominant player in the Middle East. However, his domestic support took a huge hit a few months ago when his puppet lost the Istanbul mayoral election a few months ago, twice. Don't be surprised if the winner, Ekrem İmamoğiu, is President in a few years.
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Old 1st August 2019, 03:57 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
SU-57s hahahaha well, I suppose they want to damage NATO.

You think India basically rejecting the SU 57 as a piece of junk would have told Turkey something.
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Old 1st August 2019, 04:03 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by FenerFan View Post
I agree with this. Erdoğan has done well at keeping his distance from the US and Russia and drawing closer when it's necessary. I think his real desire is to become the dominant player in the Middle East. However, his domestic support took a huge hit a few months ago when his puppet lost the Istanbul mayoral election a few months ago, twice. Don't be surprised if the winner, Ekrem İmamoğiu, is President in a few years.
And last time I looked, most Arab Countries still have a deep mistrust of Turkey dating back to the Ottoman Empire Days. People in the Middle East have long,long, memories.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 10:58 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And last time I looked, most Arab Countries still have a deep mistrust of Turkey dating back to the Ottoman Empire Days. People in the Middle East have long,long, memories.
The learn nothing and forget nothing.
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