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Tags Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues

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Old 9th May 2016, 12:50 PM   #3721
CapelDodger
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Originally Posted by skeptichaggis View Post
Is it really a coincidence that they are Jews?
Which other group of European racists might have decided to colonise Palestine 120 years ago? Gypsies?

Building a National Home in some place far from home that's already home to other people is bizarre. That anyone decided to do it once is freaky enough.
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Old 9th May 2016, 02:43 PM   #3722
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Which other group of European racists might have decided to colonise Palestine 120 years ago? Gypsies?

Building a National Home in some place far from home that's already home to other people is bizarre. That anyone decided to do it once is freaky enough.
First, I made it clear that the state of is real has blood on its hands. I should also for the sake of honesty say that if I had a choice between immigrating to Israel or ANY Muslim nation I,and I believe most first world westerners, would choose Israel.
Second I pointed out that where the anti semitism comes in is in the simple fact that most people, institutions, political persons etc that protest against Israel ignore other similar situations almost completely. I pointed out that in south america there is a still ongoing, sometimes genocidal, move to take land from Mayans who have lived there for thousands of years. Western governments have supported this in various ways. No one complains, its rarely in the papers, councils etc in the UK don't fly flags in solidarity for the suffering of those, just as innocent folk, who have seen their folk killed in numbers that dwarf the actions of isreal.
Lastly, modern Israelis had nothing to do with the formation of Israel. It took place before they were born. To ask them to leave in 2016 is plain silly, that's like saying all westerners should leave Australia and return it to the original inhabitants. After all their descent pinched that land. And you can go further back, Muslims took Palestine after yarmuk in the 8th century from the eastern roman empire. So doesn't that mean Muslims pinched it from someone else, it does not end there, what about the Canaanite peoples, what about the folk before them. Who decides the cut of point for the return of land- you. Or me?

Of course Israel should not have been created, but it has been. That is reality, they have nuclear bombs, that's reality. They are going to do what ever they like and get away with it, that's reality.

And we should criticise them for it. But if someone or some group does so and almost totally,consistently over and over ignores other near identical situations sadly taking place in the world that's anti semitism.

Besides you are only a dog,a smart dog that can use a computer but still a dog. You don't understand human stuff.
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Old 9th May 2016, 03:01 PM   #3723
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Originally Posted by Malbec View Post
Others might argue that it is the US which engineers their conflict , providing the specifics are in line with official geo political strategy .
Which , of course , makes it sweetness and light from might .
The USA, engineering Arab wars for 2000 years!

Those Jewish conspirators have nothing on us!
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Old 11th May 2016, 03:37 AM   #3724
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Originally Posted by skeptichaggis View Post
Lastly, modern Israelis had nothing to do with the formation of Israel. It took place before they were born. To ask them to leave in 2016 is plain silly, that's like saying all westerners should leave Australia and return it to the original inhabitants.
That is not entirely the point. Those modern Israelis who approve of the things done at the foundation of Israel are evidently taking responsibility for these things whether they were there or not. See my quote in #96, from a recent work recommended by a pro-Israeli poster in this thread
A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them ... Morris criticized David Ben-Gurion for not carrying out such a plan, saying: "In the end, he faltered... If he had carried out a full expulsion — rather than a partial one — he would have stabilized the State of Israel for generations."
This is still promoted, but if you were right it would be universally denounced by the modern Israeli state and its apologists.

Such policies have been pursued into more modern times. I have recently become interested in Golan, from which over 100,000 inhabitants were expelled in 1967, and their lands usurped and settled. The recent collapse of Syria has emboldened Israel to invite the USA to recognise Israeli annexation of Golan. See here.
So, when Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu brought the Israeli cabinet up to the Golan Heights to declare to the world that Israel would never leave the Golan Heights, the move got a predictably warm reception from Golan residents.
“It means no more negotiations [over returning the Golan Heights],” said Gigi Meir, a 35-year resident of Katzrin, who was sitting in the town’s shopping center with a group of friends talking politics. “There is no one to negotiate with.”

Now, Meri and other Golan residents say they want to see Israel’s government live up to Netanyahu’s declaration and expand a region that still remains sparsely populated, with limited economic development, after nearly 50 years of Israeli control.

The Israelis in the Golan — who number only about 20,000 — look to the West Bank with envy at the way Israel’s government has invested and expanded settlements to bring hundreds of thousands of residents there.
Their wish may be fulfilled.
That growth is tiny compared with the aggressive development goal — 100,000 new residents across the Golan in five years — being promoted by Naftali Bennett, a senior Israeli minister and one of many Israeli leaders and thinkers seizing on the chaos in Syria to solidify Israel’s hold on the Golan.
Given what you have stated in this post, you will join me in deploring that proposal. But what's this you're telling us?
Originally Posted by skeptichaggis View Post
Israel should never have been created, but it has been. That is reality, they have nuclear bombs, that's reality. They are going to do what ever they like and get away with it, that's reality.
I'm sure you won't find many Zionists extolling the principle "might is right". At least, not many Zionists with any sense of Jewish history.
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Old 11th May 2016, 09:31 AM   #3725
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Originally Posted by skeptichaggis View Post
First, I made it clear that the state of is real has blood on its hands. I should also for the sake of honesty say that if I had a choice between immigrating to Israel or ANY Muslim nation I,and I believe most first world westerners, would choose Israel.
That Israel ranks reasonably well amongst the world's crappy nations is hardly an accolade, and I know westerners who definitely prefer Malaysia.

Quote:
Second I pointed out that where the anti semitism comes in is in the simple fact that most people, institutions, political persons etc that protest against Israel ignore other similar situations almost completely.
Apart from that being rubbish (since the Boers have gone democratic there's only one European colonial effort still under way and the Boers came in for a great deal of stick before that) it would not be anti-semitism anyway. Anti-semitism is antipathy to Jews as a race. Criticising Israel before going through every other reprehensible regime in the world is special pleading of the grossest sort.

Quote:
pointed out that in south america there is a still ongoing, sometimes genocidal, move to take land from Mayans who have lived there for thousands of years. Western governments have supported this in various ways. No one complains, its rarely in the papers, councils etc in the UK don't fly flags in solidarity for the suffering of those, just as innocent folk, who have seen their folk killed in numbers that dwarf the actions of isreal.
Councils and indivuals do precisely that : you'll have heard of them as "lefties". Protest against dams and logging and the murderous thugs behind them are there to see. They don't get as much publicity as criticism of Israel, of course. That always merits mention because it might be concealing open anti-semitism, if nothing else. In fact, usually nothing else.

Quote:
Lastly, modern Israelis had nothing to do with the formation of Israel.
Why then do they lie so consistently about it? That lying is their sin, not somebody else's. You cannot deny agency to modern Israelis, and a majority of modern Israelis look to Netenyahu to lead them. This is not a righteous people.

Modern Israelis are victims of their forebears who moved there and built the environment that has shaped, or rather twisted, them into the casually brutal racists so many of them are. This is one of the great evils of Zionism.

Quote:
It took place before they were born. To ask them to leave in 2016 is plain silly, that's like saying all westerners should leave Australia and return it to the original inhabitants. After all their descent pinched that land. And you can go further back, Muslims took Palestine after yarmuk in the 8th century from the eastern roman empire. So doesn't that mean Muslims pinched it from someone else, it does not end there, what about the Canaanite peoples, what about the folk before them. Who decides the cut of point for the return of land- you. Or me?
Comparing a colonial venture which was launched 120 years ago, in modern times, with events in very different eras is facile. People who drove Palestinians from their homes in 1948 are alive today, proud of it when they're not denying it, and held to be heroes of the Nation by their peers and later generations. The Zionist project may be a failure but the country they did create, Israel, is exactly what they intended it to be and that was (and is) an ugly thing.

Quote:
Of course Israel should not have been created, but it ha s been. That is reality, they have nuclear bombs, that's reality. They are going to do what ever they like and get away with it, that's reality.
I'm still going to tell the true story of Zionism to counter the lies so constantly repeated and the reluctance of most people to look. Reality will continue to change, and I'm pretty sure it will see many Israelis choosing to leave rather than to live with that dark force which is growing in the settlements, and at the very centre of power. Many modern Israelis would balk at the requirement that women sit at the back of the bus outside the eyeline of godly Jewish men : would you write off that possibility? Modesty police on the streets? It's already a reality in some parts.

Israel is going to turn on itself due to its own contradictions and the lies it's founded on. What happens after that is anybody's guess, but the problem of who's a proper Jew is likely to feature, and that sort of thing can get nasty.

As for doing whatever they want to, they want to be shot of all the Palestinians they failed to get rid of in the beginning and they can't do it. There is no credible route from here to there. All that's in prospect is the now, forever, with increasing amounts of G-d. The Race identified with the Nation, the Nation identified with an Ideology, the Ideology identified with a Party - all it lacks is the Leader, which Netenyahu is too worthless a squit to qualify for. Sharon managed it. One wonders who'll be next.

Quote:
And we should criticise them for it. But if someone or some group does so and almost totally,consistently over and over ignores other near identical situations sadly taking place in the world that's anti semitism.
See above. Take account of the fact that criticism of Israel provokes a vastly louder response, usually hailed by "Many people use criticism of Israel to conceal anti-semitism", than criticism of Central American loggers, who don't have a lobby. You may be getting an exaggerated impression of how much critism of Israel there is, and missing a lot of the other stuff.
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Old 11th May 2016, 10:14 AM   #3726
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
I'm pretty sure it will see many Israelis choosing to leave rather than to live with that dark force which is growing in the settlements, and at the very centre of power.
Oooh - is that "dark force" at the centre of power a cabal of jews?

Nice to see that people can separate anti-zionism from classic jew-baiting and still educate us on how intrigues and shadowy "dark forces" are behind all of the conflict and misfortunes of other, innocent, folks.
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Old 11th May 2016, 10:45 AM   #3727
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Oooh - is that "dark force" at the centre of power a cabal of jews?
They are Jews, but since I'm referring to the centre of power in Israel this is not particularly surprising, is it? I'm referring, of course, to the so-called Ultra-Orthodox movement, probably better described as neo-Judaist but whatever.

Quote:
Nice to see that people can separate anti-zionism from classic jew-baiting and still educate us on how intrigues and shadowy "dark forces" are behind all of the conflict and misfortunes of other, innocent, folks.
The Zionist project wasn't worked up in secret, it was produced and promoted with all the publicity it could muster. The Zionists were out to convert people to their cause, for crying out loud. It isn't necessary to hack any emails to know that 120 years a group of European racists set in motion a scheme to replace the population of Palestine with as many Jews as they could possibly get to join in. Israel is the result, as is all the suffering which has been caused and will be caused before the scheme finally collapses under the weight of its own contradictions.

Anti-semitism, of course, has nothing to do with. Racist white people have everything to do with it, and one thing all Zionists agreed on - Jews are white. They could see it in the mirror every morning.
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Old 11th May 2016, 01:23 PM   #3728
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Right of self determination to be exercised where? Here, of course!
Right. Regardless of your opinion on how they got there, today Israel is populated by Israelis, and they have just as much right to self-determination as anyone else.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
People will vote for or against parties seeking to establish a Scottish state; but nobody is suggesting that the state is to be located anywhere else than where people currently reside.
Well thank God there have been no recent anti-Scottish genocides to make the Scottish survivors feel unwelcome where they are so they would feel the need to move somewhere else.

The suggestion that Jews should go somewhere else is pretty common. One of them started this thread.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
And absolutely nobody has suggested that this state should primarily (or exclusively) represent the self determination of a particular ethnic or religious group, regardless of where members of the group are living.
Nobody is trying to kill them either. I think it's disingenuous to pretend that's not an issue; as though the only comparison that matters is that they're both ethnic groups. Those groups have very different histories, and those differences matter.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Above all, nobody has proposed that some or all of an indigenous population be cleared away to make room for "Scots".
I don't see anyone proposing that in Israel either.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I would not acknowledge any state, Scottish, Jewish or anything else, that was founded on such principles, or that undertook to sustain the policies derived from them.
I think you need to broaden your education.
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Old 11th May 2016, 01:29 PM   #3729
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Now you may say, as some would, that this is an original demand and not at all what Israel's current government demands, but that would be to ignore how important these things are to nationalists - and how ephemeral governments are in the face of them. Any Israeli leaders who agree a border with Lebanon which concedes some part of Greater Israel - from Dan to Beersheba, to add some religious spice to the mix - will find greater nationalists branding them race-traitors worthy of death.
Conspiracy theory.
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Old 11th May 2016, 01:37 PM   #3730
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Of course Hamas wouldn't exist without the expulsion to Gaza of a couple of hundred thousand Palestinians by the Israeli army from 1948 and the subsequent refusal of Arab states to allow them to resettle in other areas, even those who came from and had family in neighboring Arab states. Gaza was a perfectly nice place up till then, but doubling the population with an influx of penniless, rootless and apparently future-less expellees put paid to that. All that has transpired there since, all the misery and bloodshed and wasted lives, is down to the Zionist project. Indeed so is the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
FTFY.

It wouldn't do to leave out information as important as that from the narrative, someone might get the wrong idea.
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Old 11th May 2016, 02:01 PM   #3731
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Right. Regardless of your opinion on how they got there, today Israel is populated by Israelis, and they have just as much right to self-determination as anyone else.



Well thank God there have been no recent anti-Scottish genocides to make the Scottish survivors feel unwelcome where they are so they would feel the need to move somewhere else.

The suggestion that Jews should go somewhere else is pretty common. One of them started this thread.



Nobody is trying to kill them either. I think it's disingenuous to pretend that's not an issue; as though the only comparison that matters is that they're both ethnic groups. Those groups have very different histories, and those differences matter.



I don't see anyone proposing that in Israel either.



I think you need to broaden your education.
I have in this thread addressed every one of these points except your last one, which I addressed decades ago in school. Have a nice day.
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Old 11th May 2016, 02:22 PM   #3732
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I have in this thread addressed every one of these points except your last one, which I addressed decades ago in school. Have a nice day.
I'm sure you think you have. I disagree, but since I can't force you to engage I'll just say I hope you change your mind.
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Old 11th May 2016, 04:41 PM   #3733
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I have in this thread addressed every one of these points except your last one, which I addressed decades ago in school. Have a nice day.


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Old 11th May 2016, 08:27 PM   #3734
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You see, if you just repackage all the classic Jewish conspiracy theories and substitute "Zionist" for "Jew" then it magically becomes something other than anti-Semitism.
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Old 12th May 2016, 10:39 AM   #3735
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
You see, if you just repackage all the classic Jewish conspiracy theories and substitute "Zionist" for "Jew" then it magically becomes something other than anti-Semitism.
No. Classic Jewish conspiracy theories are antisemitic. But opposition to Zionism doesn't consist of classic Jewish conspiracy theories. There really are settlers in occupied territories; but there isn't a secret Jewish cabal running Wall Street, the International Communist Conspiracy and the Federal Reserve.
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Old 12th May 2016, 10:46 AM   #3736
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
No. Classic Jewish conspiracy theories are antisemitic. But opposition to Zionism doesn't consist of classic Jewish conspiracy theories.
You're right. It consists of novel Jewish conspiracy theories.
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Old 12th May 2016, 10:52 AM   #3737
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're right. It consists of novel Jewish conspiracy theories.
Nonsense. The statements made here, mostly supported by good evidence, don't refer to conspiracies anyway, but to an openly-proclaimed state ideology and the public policies and conduct of a government.

To call that a "conspiracy theory" is "novel", I agree.
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Old 12th May 2016, 11:15 AM   #3738
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
You see, if you just repackage all the classic Jewish conspiracy theories and substitute "Zionist" for "Jew" then it magically becomes something other than anti-Semitism.
Jew-baiting 101.
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Old 12th May 2016, 11:33 AM   #3739
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Nonsense. The statements made here, mostly supported by good evidence, don't refer to conspiracies anyway, but to an openly-proclaimed state ideology and the public policies and conduct of a government.
No conspiracies? Supported by good evidence?

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Israel and the CIA decides British and American and EU foreign policy
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Old 12th May 2016, 11:29 PM   #3740
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
FTFY.

It wouldn't do to leave out information as important as that from the narrative, someone might get the wrong idea.
You have inserted "and the subsequent refusal of Arab states to allow them to resettle in other areas, even those who came from and had family in neighboring Arab states."

What is the wrong idea, and what is the right idea, before I comment? In what way does the behaviour of the Arab States absolve Israel from responsibility for the expulsions which they have perpetrated? When Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492, they were permitted by the Sultan to resettle in the Ottoman Empire, but if he had not permitted them to resettle, would that have absolved King Ferdinand even in the least degree from his responsibility for the expulsion?

Are the Zionist settlers really concerned with the wellbeing of the expelled Palestinians, and Syrians or do they simply want them to be resettled elsewhere so that they can finally disappear, and their land can be permanently usurped?

If I throw somebody out of her or his home and take it over, what right have I to say, well it's not all my fault; what about the other people who refused to take them in after I threw them out? They share my responsibility, don't they? No. The one person who has no right to criticise the lack of hospitality of others towards the homeless is the one who created the homelessness in the first place.

And if I do criticise these Arab countries, does that make me an anti-Arab racist?
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Old 13th May 2016, 04:56 AM   #3741
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
You have inserted "and the subsequent refusal of Arab states to allow them to resettle in other areas, even those who came from and had family in neighboring Arab states."
Yep, that's why I put them in bold, so it would be easy to tell what ideas are mine and which were C-D's.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
What is the wrong idea, and what is the right idea, before I comment?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, Craig. If you are wrong, should I not point it out? Is there something special about you that people shouldn't tell you when you're wrong? Are you just never wrong?


Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
In what way does the behaviour of the Arab States absolve Israel from responsibility for the expulsions which they have perpetrated?

Did someone say it does? Who?


Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
When Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492, they were permitted by the Sultan to resettle in the Ottoman Empire, but if he had not permitted them to resettle, would that have absolved King Ferdinand even in the least degree from his responsibility for the expulsion?
Would it have made a difference if King Ferdinand were fighting a war of survival? Because I think that if he were, that would be an important part of the narrative and it would be disingenuous to leave it out.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Are the Zionist settlers really concerned with the wellbeing of the expelled Palestinians, and Syrians or do they simply want them to be resettled elsewhere so that they can finally disappear, and their land can be permanently usurped?
Which settlers? And who's well-being should they be concerned with?

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
If I throw somebody out of her or his home and take it over, what right have I to say, well it's not all my fault; what about the other people who refused to take them in after I threw them out? They share my responsibility, don't they? No. The one person who has no right to criticise the lack of hospitality of others towards the homeless is the one who created the homelessness in the first place.
If a guy comes from Egypt and suddenly his Egyptian citizenship is revoked, then yeah, I think Egypt is responsible for his being a refugee and for forcing a "Palestinian" identity on him he may not want.

More importantly, I think the idea that blame can only fall on one party and we're not allowed to discuss contributing factors of other parties to be absurd. Just as it's absurd to ignore their reasons for doing what they do; did the Israelis really just kick out a bunch of people solely because they're greedy bastards who wanted to usurp their property? Or were there a bunch of invading armies who made them feel like they needed to make some survival decisions there? I guess when Jews struggle for survival, they're supposed to not consider their own survival as a factor?


Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
And if I do criticise these Arab countries, does that make me an anti-Arab racist?
If I were to tell you that some criticism of Arab nations really is motivated by anti-Arab racism, but some criticism is not, would that blow your mind? Or do you only find this confusing when we're talking about Israel? Do you have some reason why you won't move on from this straw-man?
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Old 13th May 2016, 05:14 AM   #3742
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Which settlers?
Eh?

ETA You are presumably joking or being provocative. But to identify "settlers" - you must be the only literate person on the planet who doesn't know what the word refers to in this context - please see the links in my post #264. I can very easily find other sources if you want.

To renew this conversation, please explain to me what your question "Which settlers?" means.

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Old 13th May 2016, 07:59 AM   #3743
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Eh?

ETA You are presumably joking or being provocative. But to identify "settlers" - you must be the only literate person on the planet who doesn't know what the word refers to in this context - please see the links in my post #264. I can very easily find other sources if you want.

To renew this conversation, please explain to me what your question "Which settlers?" means.
I mean we're talking about a conflict that spans generations. The "settlers" who immigrated back in the 1880's are not the same people who struggled in 1948, who are not the same people of today.

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Old 13th May 2016, 08:39 AM   #3744
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I mean we're talking about a conflict that spans generations. The "settlers" who immigrated back in the 1880's are not the same people who struggled in 1948, who are not the same people of today.
That won't do, I'm afraid. Here is our conversation on the topic.

Me: Are the Zionist settlers really concerned with the wellbeing of the expelled Palestinians, and Syrians or do they simply want them to be resettled elsewhere so that they can finally disappear, and their land can be permanently usurped?
You: Which settlers? And who's well-being should they be concerned with?

Me: If I throw somebody out of her or his home and take it over, what right have I to say, well it's not all my fault; what about the other people who refused to take them in after I threw them out? They share my responsibility, don't they? No. The one person who has no right to criticise the lack of hospitality of others towards the homeless is the one who created the homelessness in the first place.
You: If a guy comes from Egypt and suddenly his Egyptian citizenship is revoked, then yeah, I think Egypt is responsible for his being a refugee and for forcing a "Palestinian" identity on him he may not want.

Egyptian citizenship was revoked in the 1880s? Parts of Syria were annexed and cleared in 1948? Aye, right.
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Old 13th May 2016, 09:26 AM   #3745
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