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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 4th June 2019, 05:41 AM   #1681
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
And let us not forget that the transistor was invented in the U.S..
Correction: They stole it from an earlier German patent without referencing said patent and pretending they invented it.
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Old 4th June 2019, 07:07 AM   #1682
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Correction: They stole it from an earlier German patent without referencing said patent and pretending they invented it.
But they did. I don't think there's any evidence that they knew about the German patent. Moreover, there's no evidence that the German patent ever had a working model to go with it, whereas the American invention of the transistor clearly did. And lastly, if you want to go by earliest patent regardless of working models, then the Germans were still beaten by an American.
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Old 4th June 2019, 07:12 AM   #1683
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But they did. I don't think there's any evidence that they knew about the German patent. Moreover, there's no evidence that the German patent ever had a working model to go with it, whereas the American invention of the transistor clearly did. And lastly, if you want to go by earliest patent regardless of working models, then the Germans were still beaten by an American.
Well this is what Wikipedia has to say on it:
Quote:
The first patent[1] for the field-effect transistor principle was filed in Canada by Austrian-Hungarian physicist Julius Edgar Lilienfeld on October 22, 1925, but Lilienfeld published no research articles about his devices, and his work was ignored by industry. In 1934 German physicist Dr. Oskar Heil patented another field-effect transistor.[2] There is no direct evidence that these devices were built, but later work in the 1990s show that one of Lilienfeld's designs worked as described and gave substantial gain. Legal papers from the Bell Labs patent show that William Shockley and a co-worker at Bell Labs, Gerald Pearson, had built operational versions from Lilienfeld's patents, yet they never referenced this work in any of their later research papers or historical articles.[3]
Especially the last sentence seems to support the contention that they used the German patent to develop their own yet hid this. ETA: oops, I mixed up the patents, it's the Austrian-Hungarian one they used rather than the German one.
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Old 4th June 2019, 08:24 AM   #1684
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Well this is what Wikipedia has to say on it:


Especially the last sentence seems to support the contention that they used the German patent to develop their own yet hid this. ETA: oops, I mixed up the patents, it's the Austrian-Hungarian one they used rather than the German one.
Canadian patent from Austro Hungarian individual. Also you couldn't have a austro hungarian patent in 1925 as the nation no longer existed.
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Old 4th June 2019, 09:01 AM   #1685
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Canadian patent from Austro Hungarian individual. Also you couldn't have a austro hungarian patent in 1925 as the nation no longer existed.
Yes I had mixed up the particulars but the main point stands, namely that Bell Labs did not invent the transistor but had worked off an earlier invention by someone else while hiding this.

Ziggurat claiming that this patent was made by an American is also incorrect since Lilienfeld only got American citizenship 9 years later in 1934. That's a bit like claiming that Special Relativity was published in 1905 by an American because Einstein got American citizenship in 1940.
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Old 4th June 2019, 09:29 AM   #1686
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Yes I had mixed up the particulars but the main point stands, namely that Bell Labs did not invent the transistor but had worked off an earlier invention by someone else while hiding this.

Ziggurat claiming that this patent was made by an American is also incorrect since Lilienfeld only got American citizenship 9 years later in 1934. That's a bit like claiming that Special Relativity was published in 1905 by an American because Einstein got American citizenship in 1940.
Except Lilienfeld was living and working in America at the time, whereas Einstein wasn't.

But what exactly counts as inventing something? Does it count to have an idea that you can't actually put into practice? Or do you have to succeed in actually making something that works? I'm not convinced that the former is a better definition than the latter, and if you go with the latter then yes, Bell Labs invented the transistor.
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:57 PM   #1687
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Except Lilienfeld was living and working in America at the time, whereas Einstein wasn't.
By that logic all scientists working at CERN are Swiss and the concept of an international team working at CERN would be a contradiction in terms. He also filed the patent in Canada and not the US, which combined with the lack of details of his life between going to the US in 1921 and giving up his job in Leipzig in 1926 and taking a job in the US in 1928 suggests the real possibility that he may have been in Canada at the time of his discovery.

Quote:
But what exactly counts as inventing something? Does it count to have an idea that you can't actually put into practice? Or do you have to succeed in actually making something that works? I'm not convinced that the former is a better definition than the latter, and if you go with the latter then yes, Bell Labs invented the transistor.
We don't know whether he did or didn't actually construct it, all we know is that nobody was really interested at the time and the patent passed by quietly. But even if we assume he never actually built a prototype, it's been established that his idea worked as designed and if anything is going to count as an invention it shouldn't be the mere construction of something based on previously published instructions - there's no real discovery process in that. I certainly didn't invent my bedroom closet merely because I got the required materials and put it all together based on the instructions that came with it.
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Old 4th June 2019, 06:59 PM   #1688
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
He also filed the patent in Canada and not the US, which combined with the lack of details of his life between going to the US in 1921 and giving up his job in Leipzig in 1926 and taking a job in the US in 1928 suggests the real possibility that he may have been in Canada at the time of his discovery.
I found no evidence on the internet that Julius Lilienfeld ever lived in Canada, he lived in Massachusetts (after Germany), and Canada is not very far away from there (about 200 kilometers). It is possible that he filed the first patent for a transistor in Canada in 1925, because he felt it would be easier to have it approved there, with a waiting time smaller.

One cannot rule out, however, that Lilienfeld conceived a first field-effect transistor in his head while still living (full-time, or partly) in Germany, it's hard to tell. Perhaps a compromise position would be to say that "the first industrially important transistor was designed and built in the U.S., at Bell Laboratories, in 1947, starting the solid-state electronics revolution".
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:21 PM   #1689
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I don't understand where we're going with all this talk of transistors.
Are we now abandoning a two-state solution in favour of a solid-state one?
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Old 5th June 2019, 05:14 AM   #1690
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I don't understand where we're going with all this talk of transistors.
Are we now abandoning a two-state solution in favour of a solid-state one?
I think this little discussion was about the U.S. influence in the world. Is the U.S. really an evil country, a kind of universal troublemaker and aggravator? (particularly with this Trump administration, Obama was giving some hope to many people, I think - note, by the way, that having an African black parent is not necessarily a bad thing, it does not necessarily goes against "civilization", often associated with Whites of European descent).

Are most of the world's problems actually artificial creations of one particularly mad, stupid and cruel country? This fundamental issue is always relevant in a political (sub-)forum, I think. And part of the answer is that the U.S. has a high scientific and technological level, and was able to make many important contributions to the world through this high level, and in other ways.

And another part of the answer is, in my opinion:"Yes, American absurd pseudo-repressive policies and neglect of the environment are responsible for a great deal of the current world's problem. The Palestine-Israel conflict illustrates this. The U.S. is giving annually about 4 billion dollars of military assistance to Israel to help this country evade international law (and U.N. resolutions), and steal every month more land from the poor Palestinians, who then react with some violence. It seems to me that, as a major superpower, the U.S. should be a guardian of international law, and should be among the first to help enforce it. Because of its large power and influence, and its permanent seat in the Security Council, the U.S. should be super-careful about being very neutral and objective. But we know that, unfortunately, this is not the path the U.S. is choosing.

Last edited by Michel H; 5th June 2019 at 05:46 AM.
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Old 5th June 2019, 08:20 AM   #1691
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Are most of the world's problems actually artificial creations of one particularly mad, stupid and cruel country?
Don't be so hard on Germany.
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Old 5th June 2019, 08:24 AM   #1692
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Don't be so hard on Germany.
I thought he meant Russia or China.
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Old 5th June 2019, 09:09 AM   #1693
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I found no evidence on the internet that Julius Lilienfeld ever lived in Canada, he lived in Massachusetts (after Germany), and Canada is not very far away from there (about 200 kilometers). It is possible that he filed the first patent for a transistor in Canada in 1925, because he felt it would be easier to have it approved there, with a waiting time smaller.
Except that he had also filed a patent in the US in 1928 and refiled his Canadian patent in the US in 1930, which would seem to suggest that ease of filing patents isn't the reason he filed that one in Canada.

Do you have evidence that he lived in Massachusetts from 1921 to 1928? All the evidence I've seen (though I've not particularly looked very hard) states that he went to the US in 1921 and took a job in Massachusetts in 1928 and that he didn't resign his job in Leipzig until 1926. But I haven't seen any evidence of the details of his whereabouts in the early years between 1921 and 1928. This combined with him filing patents in both Canada and the US seems to suggest to me that he first may have moved around a bit (both in the US and in Canada) before finally deciding to settle in Massachusetts, taking a job there and resigning the job he held in Leipzig.

Quote:
One cannot rule out, however, that Lilienfeld conceived a first field-effect transistor in his head while still living (full-time, or partly) in Germany, it's hard to tell. Perhaps a compromise position would be to say that "the first industrially important transistor was designed and built in the U.S., at Bell Laboratories, in 1947, starting the solid-state electronics revolution".
Sure.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I think this little discussion was about the U.S. influence in the world.
It was about you claiming that the US invented the transistor and me remembering that Bell Labs had actually worked on an earlier patent but had kept this out of their history.
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Old 5th June 2019, 10:37 AM   #1694
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Do you have evidence that he lived in Massachusetts from 1921 to 1928? All the evidence I've seen (though I've not particularly looked very hard) states that he went to the US in 1921 and took a job in Massachusetts in 1928 and that he didn't resign his job in Leipzig until 1926. But I haven't seen any evidence of the details of his whereabouts in the early years between 1921 and 1928. This combined with him filing patents in both Canada and the US seems to suggest to me that he first may have moved around a bit (both in the US and in Canada) before finally deciding to settle in Massachusetts, taking a job there and resigning the job he held in Leipzig.
I have done a Google search using the terms: Julius Lilienfeld Canada, hoping that this would lead me straight to information about a possible home or stay of Lilienfeld in Canada, but I couldn't find anything. Otherwise, I have probably used the same wikipedia source as you, which states:
Quote:
Lilienfeld moved to the United States in 1921 to pursue his patent claims, resigning his professorship at Leipzig to stay permanently in 1926. In 1928, he began working at Amrad in Malden, Massachusetts, later called Ergon Research Laboratories owned by Magnavox, which closed in 1935.[1]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius...ienfeld#Career)
I also found a source, which said:
Quote:
In later years, Lilienfeld's widow gave the American Physical Society money for an award for physics research, one of the biggest in the world
(https://books.google.be/books?id=cRb...page&q&f=false)
So, this suggests Lilienfeld did not die as a very poor man.

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Old 5th June 2019, 10:41 AM   #1695
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I thought he meant Russia or China.
Lenin was sent into Russia by the Germans in the same way that you might send a phial containing a culture of typhoid or cholera to be poured into the water supply of a great city, and it worked with amazing accuracy.
-Winston Churchill

And of course the Russians in turn helped spark the Chinese communist revolution. So I'd still put Germany at the top.
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Old 5th June 2019, 11:28 PM   #1696
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I don't understand where we're going with all this talk of transistors.
Are we now abandoning a two-state solution in favour of a solid-state one?
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I think this little discussion was about the U.S. influence in the world. Is the U.S. really an evil country, a kind of universal troublemaker and aggravator? (particularly with this Trump administration, Obama was giving some hope to many people, I think - note, by the way, that having an African black parent is not necessarily a bad thing, it does not necessarily goes against "civilization", often associated with Whites of European descent).

Are most of the world's problems actually artificial creations of one particularly mad, stupid and cruel country? This fundamental issue is always relevant in a political (sub-)forum, I think. And part of the answer is that the U.S. has a high scientific and technological level, and was able to make many important contributions to the world through this high level, and in other ways.

And another part of the answer is, in my opinion:"Yes, American absurd pseudo-repressive policies and neglect of the environment are responsible for a great deal of the current world's problem. The Palestine-Israel conflict illustrates this. The U.S. is giving annually about 4 billion dollars of military assistance to Israel to help this country evade international law (and U.N. resolutions), and steal every month more land from the poor Palestinians, who then react with some violence. It seems to me that, as a major superpower, the U.S. should be a guardian of international law, and should be among the first to help enforce it. Because of its large power and influence, and its permanent seat in the Security Council, the U.S. should be super-careful about being very neutral and objective. But we know that, unfortunately, this is not the path the U.S. is choosing.
Further proof that virtually no-one on this forum understands my sense of humour.
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Old 6th June 2019, 01:05 PM   #1697
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Further proof that virtually no-one on this forum understands my sense of humour.
Ex pirate radio tech here - I enjoyed it!
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Old 6th June 2019, 03:32 PM   #1698
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Further proof that virtually no-one on this forum understands my sense of humour.
In the case of the guy you quote, Hard Line ideologues are not known for their sense of humor.
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Old 6th June 2019, 05:06 PM   #1699
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
In the case of the guy you quote, Hard Line ideologues are not known for their sense of humor.
Q: How many commies does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: Thatís not funny!
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Old 7th June 2019, 12:52 AM   #1700
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
Ex pirate radio tech here - I enjoyed it!
Thanks!
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Old 20th June 2019, 01:33 PM   #1701
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Over in the section of the current crisis in Iran, we have someonw pushing that somehow the Israeli Military is responsible for the tanker attacks that got the whole thing started. When in doubt, blame the Jews.....
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Old 22nd June 2019, 06:03 AM   #1702
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* Safe-Keeper Walks into Israel-Palestine thread after years of absence...


Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Then they should just conquer it like they did last time, kill all the men, women and boys and keep the girls as rape slaves. Stop pretending that the palestinians matter and just impose the proper jewish state.

The clear only peaceful solution you can see with that is the cleansing of palestinians from the area and a single israeli jewish state. That is totally at odds with the two state solution, which was my main point all along, the two state solution is totally unworkable and so a single state solution needs to be worked out.
* Safe-Keeper Walks back out.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 03:58 PM   #1703
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Over in the section of the current crisis in Iran, we have someonw pushing that somehow the Israeli Military is responsible for the tanker attacks that got the whole thing started. When in doubt, blame the Jews.....
Unfortunately anti-semitism and Israeli conspiracy mongering is now normal on the British left.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 04:01 PM   #1704
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When, exactly, has that not been the case?
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Old 22nd June 2019, 04:07 PM   #1705
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
When, exactly, has that not been the case?
Thereís always been some. And itís always been rampant in the fringes but since Corbyn, itís mainstream. Easier now to list who on the left isnít an anti Semite.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 04:25 PM   #1706
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Fair enough. It's more blatant now, I agree.
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Old 24th June 2019, 05:23 AM   #1707
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Well it seems Jared solved it.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...-idUSKCN1TP0GY

Clear out the Palestinians though gentrification like he does with other brown communities.
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Old 25th June 2019, 03:07 AM   #1708
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well it seems Jared solved it.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...-idUSKCN1TP0GY

Clear out the Palestinians though gentrification like he does with other brown communities.
This glib nonsense has nothing at all to do with what's in that article.
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Old 26th June 2019, 02:56 PM   #1709
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
This glib nonsense has nothing at all to do with what's in that article.
Agreed, it simply mouthing platitudes regardless of the artical's contents.
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Old 26th June 2019, 03:02 PM   #1710
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Now Bibi is thinking about trying to call off the new elections.
The guy is trying to turn Israel into a Latin American style Banana Republic.
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Old 26th June 2019, 11:51 PM   #1711
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I think this little discussion was about the U.S. influence in the world. Is the U.S. really an evil country, a kind of universal troublemaker and aggravator? (particularly with this Trump administration, Obama was giving some hope to many people, I think - note, by the way, that having an African black parent is not necessarily a bad thing, it does not necessarily goes against "civilization", often associated with Whites of European descent).

Are most of the world's problems actually artificial creations of one particularly mad, stupid and cruel country? This fundamental issue is always relevant in a political (sub-)forum, I think. And part of the answer is that the U.S. has a high scientific and technological level, and was able to make many important contributions to the world through this high level, and in other ways.

And another part of the answer is, in my opinion:"Yes, American absurd pseudo-repressive policies and neglect of the environment are responsible for a great deal of the current world's problem. The Palestine-Israel conflict illustrates this. The U.S. is giving annually about 4 billion dollars of military assistance to Israel to help this country evade international law (and U.N. resolutions), and steal every month more land from the poor Palestinians, who then react with some violence. It seems to me that, as a major superpower, the U.S. should be a guardian of international law, and should be among the first to help enforce it. Because of its large power and influence, and its permanent seat in the Security Council, the U.S. should be super-careful about being very neutral and objective. But we know that, unfortunately, this is not the path the U.S. is choosing.
Perhaps we can blame France? There is an interesting (perhaps for some here) series on the BBC 'The History of the Treaty of Versailles - in Five Future Wars', which suggests that the conflicts of the modern world were partly driven by decisions, mostly French driven, made in 1919. Everything from WW2, Vietnam and the middle east crises.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00...episodes/guide
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Old 27th June 2019, 12:08 AM   #1712
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
This glib nonsense has nothing at all to do with what's in that article.
I'm trying to give Kushner's different proposal a chance. But I can't. It's ignorant, the Palestinians are not part of the discussion. It sounds like, "let's buy our way to the solution we, Israel, want."

BTW, this may be a post and run. These debates always go nowhere.
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Old 27th June 2019, 05:39 AM   #1713
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The Palestinians are certainly "part" of the discussions, but they're being kept in check by unelected leaders (Abbas has to go) and by incredibly backwards-thinking groups of Islamic Jihadists in Gaza.
The one brave soul who challenged the leaders was able to come away from Bahrain with lots of enthusiasm and ideas.
How come THAT guy isn't bitching and complaining? Hmmmmmm...?
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Old 27th June 2019, 06:17 AM   #1714
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Now Bibi is thinking about trying to call off the new elections.
The guy is trying to turn Israel into a Latin American style Banana Republic.
I understand that he was aiming for a wide-ranging coalition with over 80 combined seats (unity gov't.) but Gantz will not sit alongside Netanyahu due to pending indictment.

So, elections will go ahead, as indicated by the rule of law, no bananas.
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Old 27th June 2019, 02:29 PM   #1715
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I keep on reading that behind closed doors a lot of Likud leaders think that Bibi is badly damaged goods, and needs to go but are afraid of the personality cult that has risen around him.
I never liked the guy, frankly. I always found his endless cashing in on his dead brother, a genuine Israeli hero, to be pretty disgusting.
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Old 27th June 2019, 02:35 PM   #1716
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Perhaps we can blame France? There is an interesting (perhaps for some here) series on the BBC 'The History of the Treaty of Versailles - in Five Future Wars', which suggests that the conflicts of the modern world were partly driven by decisions, mostly French driven, made in 1919. Everything from WW2, Vietnam and the middle east crises.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00...episodes/guide
Actually the Treaty of Versailles did not deal with the Middle East. That was the Treaty of Sevres.
And Trust the Brits to try to put all the blame on the French. Plenty of blame to go around for everybody. It was Llloyd George who promised to "Squeeze Germany Until the Pips Squeaked".
And the Sikes/Picot agreement which divided the Mid East between France and Great Britian was actually agreed to why the war was still in progress.
"There was British civil serveant named Sikes, and a French Civil Servant named Picot"......as Claude Rains said in Lawrence of Arabia.
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Old 29th June 2019, 02:13 AM   #1717
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm trying to give Kushner's different proposal a chance. But I can't. It's ignorant, the Palestinians are not part of the discussion. It sounds like, "let's buy our way to the solution we, Israel, want."

BTW, this may be a post and run. These debates always go nowhere.
The Palestinians would have been part of the discussion, had they accepted the invitation to attend.
They did not. Their non-participation is their own doing.
As a result of this, no Israeli government figures will be present either.
Post and run all you like, but do check your facts first.
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Old 29th June 2019, 09:07 AM   #1718
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From my recollection, Palestinian leaders are claiming they never actually received invitation.

There were a few brave businessman attendee amongst the high and mighty Arab kingdoms and sheikdom.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.haa...ence-1.7421793
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Old 29th June 2019, 12:07 PM   #1719
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
From my recollection, Palestinian leaders are claiming they never actually received invitation.

There were a few brave businessman attendee amongst the high and mighty Arab kingdoms and sheikdom.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.haa...ence-1.7421793
Your link is saying:
Quote:
Palestinian Authority Arrests Hebron Man Who Attended U.S.-led Bahrain Conference
Salah Abu Miala was arrested immediately after returning to Hebron, while another, Ashraf Ghanem, evaded authorities ■ Senior Fatah official: The Palestinian public appreciated the arrest
It seems to me that, while the Palestinian Authority is right when it demands a political solution based on ending the occupation, arresting a man for attending a peace conference where some money is proposed for economic development in Palestine, is excessive. I think it would have been better to attend, thank politely for the effort, and explain once again the Palestinian viewpoint to the powerful Americans, pointing out for example the money the U.S. is giving annually to Israel. The Palestinians could have come back with some promise of financial aid (better than nothing).
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Old 30th June 2019, 05:01 AM   #1720
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
From my recollection, Palestinian leaders are claiming they never actually received invitation.
My understanding is that the Palestinian Authority was invited, but refused to attend.
Hamas, on the other hand, being a bunch of murderous fanatics and widely judged to be a terrorist organistaion, was not invited.
Now, it is possible to argue that Hamas are the elected government of Gaza, and so they should be there. I would say in reply that Hamas should have another election, as it's been a very long time since the last one, and they've only ever had one. Let them show how the citizens of Gaza support them, and then they can claim to be legitimate representatives of their people.
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-...ried-1.7025990
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